My Experience With Borderline Disorder: By Aprilshowers

[nursebeeme]

let me start with a Casey lie that isn't too wrapped in layers. She lied about working at Sports Authority. She did not work there. Her best guy friend did. She also stole money from him. Did she lie about this because her friend worked there so it would make the lie seem more credible? I think she took money from him because she knew she could and she knew he would not bite back. Is it anyone's opinion, who has personal experience with a pathological lier, as to why they would tell this lie (ie motive etc) tia

 

[Jadestar]

This is only my personal experience:

My bio dad is a sociopath and even though I have known this for along time, his thinking/way of life is still extremely hard for me to grasp, and I have really, really tried. He lives in his own little world of lies, is charming but can't keep friends/family around because of his lies/stealing, will use anyone to get what he wants and has no remorse for things he has done nor will he admit to anything, even when faced with cold hard facts. Sound like anyone else we know?

This is probably why I'm so drawn to this case. If Casey is indeed a sociopath, I think the possibility that she killed Caylee is etremely high. Sociopaths have no problem using their child in their lies/schemes and have no problem leaving children is harm's way. My bio dad left me for hours in his car, left me with almost strangers for days, offered me a joint at age 4 and once tied me up and taped my mouth shut because I didn't want to be left with strangers while he went out and partied.

I am lucky, I survived, but if Casey is anything like my bio dad, there is a chance she did something similiar and Caylee didn't make it. I am praying this is not the case.:angel:

 

[BAHD]

Yes, Thank you. This sheds alot of light on this situation. I was wondering though, when you talked about emotional insest, is it sexual as well or no?

 

[OneLostGrl]

let me start with a Casey lie that isn't too wrapped in layers. She lied about working at Sports Authority. She did not work there. Her best guy friend did. She also stole money from him. Did she lie about this because her friend worked there so it would make the lie seem more credible? I think she took money from him because she knew she could and she knew he would not bite back. Is it anyone's opinion, who has personal experience with a pathological lier, as to why they would tell this lie (ie motive etc) tia

Makes the lie easier to keep track of. If things are kept "close to home" to some degree they can remember it better.

 

[LCoastMom]

You are very wise!

I get what you mean! My son was already born by the time I was finally diagnosed with Bipolar but after much emotional struggle, and an abortion I had my tubes tied because I was afraid I could end up harming my children if I continued to have them.

I knew what I was capable of, given my rage and Psychotic episodes so I took that possiblity out of the Equation.

BTW, my son is 14 and has never had a "spanking". My fear of my Bipolar and the possiblity of me losing control has colored how I disipline him.. I couldn't trust myself so I simply never hit him. I know if I had more kids and was more stressed day in and day out I would not have had the same amount of control over myself.

All who shared, thank you very much, you have incredible incite into the situation that won't come from someone who hasn't walked in your shoes.

Lost Girl, I believe your ability to discipline without spanking has more to do with the love you have for your son, than your fear of losing control. Additionally you are very self aware on different levels, that displays your desire to grow passed your up bringing and not let history repeat itself. Kudos.

 

[nursebeeme]

bumping this thread to the front page! You all are heros for what you have endured in your lives as well as courageous for sharing it here. I applaud all of you!

I started a thread on pathological lying and sociopathy yesterday and mods must have merged it with this thread. I have a question....did any of you have pathological lying as an element? If so, can your own personal experience shed any light on the way that Casey has layered her own lies? In other words.....can you perhaps find those nuggets of truth that coud help unravel them?

From what jadestar has posted (and THANKYOU TOO Jadestar), Casey seems (imhoo) to seem more sociopathic then anything especially with her flat affect and smiles that are turned on like a switch:

my bio dad is a sociopath

This is only my personal experience:

My bio dad is a sociopath and even though I have known this for along time, his thinking/way of life is still extremely hard for me to grasp, and I have really, really tried. He lives in his own little world of lies, is charming but can't keep friends/family around because of his lies/stealing, will use anyone to get what he wants and has no remorse for things he has done nor will he admit to anything, even when faced with cold hard facts. Sound like anyone else we know?

This is probably why I'm so drawn to this case. If Casey is indeed a sociopath, I think the possibility that she killed Caylee is etremely high. Sociopaths have no problem using their child in their lies/schemes and have no problem leaving children is harm's way. My bio dad left me for hours in his car, left me with almost strangers for days, offered me a joint at age 4 and once tied me up and taped my mouth shut because I didn't want to be left with strangers while he went out and partied.

I am lucky, I survived, but if Casey is anything like my bio dad, there is a chance she did something similiar and Caylee didn't make it. I am praying this is not the case.:angel:

I also agree with Onelostgirl, that Cynthia displays more of the boarderline traits...at least what I have seen of her and my professional knowledge of dsm IVr (I am an ICU nurse but have had psyche and, of course, you still see psyche in the icu setting).

The difference between Casey.....a possible sociopath......and her mother......possible boarderline......is that when lies are told they are at different levels in the conscience...correct? (someone please correct me if I am wrong here) While Cynthia can lie and embelish she knows at some level it is wrong. When Casey lies sociopathically she has no remorse and her conscience is not affected in one bit. She does not view it as wrong on any level. Would this be the best way to describe how Casey is lying??? Thanks in advance and in hindsight for all of your valuable input and personal testamonies. I actually have some to share but am not quite sure how to phrase it yet. LOL. I am an adopted child and had a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful family.....but for some reason think I always had some level of an attachment disorder that caused me to perceive losses in the most accute way possible and I did quite a few stupid things to bypass any loss in my life. I will share more later.

Again, thank you for everything you have shared. Bless ALL OF YOU. It is so refreshing to see all of you take that hurt on the inside and use it to help. What courage and selflessnessyou have all displayed here!!!!!

 

[Vahlaria]

So true! Also, in many families there is a "scapegoat." This is the person who always screws up - or so others seem to say. Once a person is given that designation they will usually live up to it! It's very difficult to walk away from.

I was that person in my family; however, April was the chosen one and so was a friend of mine whose mother could not bear for her to leave her. So much goes into the development of a human!!

I agree with this. In my family, with my mother, she rotates the scapegoat. At the moment, it's me (now that my little sister is sober.) I never heard the term emotional incest, but that's what my mother and bio-father did to me. I was the adult, and it was my responsibility to take care of their emotional needs, and provide them with what their parents never could.

Any time I did not, it was my fault, and I was mentally, emotional, and occasionally physically abused (only until I started hitting back.) For me, if it wasn't for my step-father, I would have lost my mind, although I almost did several times. I was eight when I tried to kill myself. (lucky for me someone took the sleeping pills before I got to them.)

I think my saving grace was my brother, then sister came along when I was ten and twelve, thus giving me two people who really needed me. That helped keep me centered, and focused on what the real problem was. Although my parents still try that garbage with me to this day, it doesn't work, and hasn't for a long time.

My sister however took my spot when I left (it took me years before I even realized.) Being the youngest it was harder for her, and hit her hard.

She would set up scenarios, and really put her life in danger; it was rare my mother even cared. Everything that happens, or anything we do is all about her--she has NPD along with several other disorders.

My sister started doing more and more dangerous things, until I reached the point that I really thought she would either get killed or kill someone else, so yes, I can see KC doing this as well.

I can't explain the desperation I saw in my sister, or the opressive need to do the things she did, for good or bad I learned to turn off my feelings, and never wanted my parents to care about me at all, so I can only relate to it on a certain level.

Can I easily see KC killing her daughter in the throes of this? Yes. It sets up the perfect scenario IMO. "Who do you care about the most? Me or Caylee?
Who is more important? Caylee is dead, and I will be too if I get caught. Now prove to me that you really love me. Do you want to loose both, or just one?"

"I've really messed up this time mom, what are you going to do about it?"


As I've watched KC relax more and more, and become more "happy" for a better word, I have to say it has worked for her, and now she has her, "my mommy really does love me," answer implanted in her head.

 

[Fuzzymuffin]

bumping this thread to the front page! You all are heros for what you have endured in your lives as well as courageous for sharing it here. I applaud all of you!

I started a thread on pathological lying and sociopathy yesterday and mods must have merged it with this thread. I have a question....did any of you have pathological lying as an element? If so, can your own personal experience shed any light on the way that Casey has layered her own lies? In other words.....can you perhaps find those nuggets of truth that coud help unravel them?

From what jadestar has posted (and THANKYOU TOO Jadestar), Casey seems (imhoo) to seem more sociopathic then anything especially with her flat affect and smiles that are turned on like a switch.

I also agree with Onelostgirl, that Cynthia displays more of the boarderline traits...at least what I have seen of her and my professional knowledge of dsm IVr (I am an ICU nurse but have had psyche and, of course, you still see psyche in the icu setting).

The difference between Casey.....a possible sociopath......and her mother......possible boarderline......is that when lies are told they are at different levels in the conscience...correct? (someone please correct me if I am wrong here) While Cynthia can lie and embelish she knows at some level it is wrong. When Casey lies sociopathically she has no remorse and her conscience is not affected in one bit. She does not view it as wrong on any level. Would this be the best way to describe how Casey is lying??? Thanks in advance and in hindsight for all of your valuable input and personal testamonies. I actually have some to share but am not quite sure how to phrase it yet. LOL. I am an adopted child and had a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful family.....but for some reason think I always had some level of an attachment disorder that caused me to perceive losses in the most accute way possible and I did quite a few stupid things to bypass any loss in my life. I will share more later.

Again, thank you for everything you have shared. Bless ALL OF YOU. It is so refreshing to see all of you take that hurt on the inside and use it to help. What courage and selflessnessyou have all displayed here!!!!!

Sometimes people don't fit into nice little categories. My family has a lot of the problems we are discussing here. My mother and father both leaned on me and pulled me in different directions, trying to get all my loyalty. I heard far more before puberty about the adult world than I should have. With two brothers to look after in the midst of all their selfish drama I think it anchored me a little. Plus I escaped into books. Many years later I was thinking I had BPD. One of the things that is somewhat parallel in me to KC is the flat affect. I found that when I had not gotten my needs met and I was angry and disappointed my feelings actually were kind of "worn out". Or maybe it was the great disappointment. But I went into a phase of emotional denial in order to not feel things. I threw people away who had disappointed me. And I came across as having a flat affect and a monotone kind of voice when I spoke to people. It was a way of denying their existence or punishing them for not being there for me.

 

[aprilshowers]

Yes, Thank you. This sheds alot of light on this situation. I was wondering though, when you talked about emotional insest, is it sexual as well or no?

No, emotional incest is just that ... an emotional reliance from a family member onto another.

As sexual incest is having 'sex' with a family member ... emotional incest is relying on and sharing an emotional dependency and need, with a family member (usually a child), that's not old enough to cope, understand or handle it ... and shouldn't be.

 

[nursebeeme]

Sometimes people don't fit into nice little categories. My family has a lot of the problems we are discussing here. My mother and father both leaned on me and pulled me in different directions, trying to get all my loyalty. I heard far more before puberty about the adult world than I should have. With two brothers to look after in the midst of all their selfish drama I think it anchored me a little. Plus I escaped into books. Many years later I was thinking I had BPD. One of the things that is somewhat parallel in me to KC is the flat affect. I found that when I had not gotten my needs met and I was angry and disappointed my feelings actually were kind of "worn out". Or maybe it was the great disappointment. But I went into a phase of emotional denial in order to not feel things. I threw people away who had disappointed me. And I came across as having a flat affect and a monotone kind of voice when I spoke to people. It was a way of denying their existence or punishing them for not being there for me.

Casey's affect seems not just flat to me but.....empty..... if that is possible. Like there is nothing at all behind her eyes. I kind of had the same feeling when looking at Ted Bundy's eyes when he seemed to be smiling.

 

[tiredofthis]

Casey's affect seems not just flat to me but.....empty..... if that is possible. Like there is nothing at all behind her eyes. I kind of had the same feeling when looking at Ted Bundy's eyes when he seemed to be smiling.

Maybe deep down she does regret what happened to Caylee.

 

[aprilshowers]

I'm going to give a perspective into this, that might not go over well with some of you, but it's the truth for me, or WAS .... so if it fits, ok ... if not, feel free to toss it.

Believe it or not, borderlines really do NOT like themselves! They feel VERY alone, and sometimes even HATE themselves. The thing is, you really can't tell! I mean, you really can't. It would seem that they are smug in what they do, or confident, or laughing at the world, when in reality, they are feeling horrible about who they are, and so they do whatever it takes, to make themselves feel better.

Now I have to say, I did lose it with my son a couple of times, and there were times when they were young, I wished I didn't have children, and wanted to RUN ... and I probably spanked when I shouldn't have, and probably lost my temper when it wasn't necessary ... but all in all, I loved them with my whole heart, panicked when they were missing for only a few minutes, and felt very uneasy when they were in daycare or with anybody but me and my mom.

Would I have ever killed them? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

BUT, I know there were times when I was 'into' myself ... meaning that I felt very unloved and very insecure, and would 'act out' to get somebody to notice, to care, to rescue me, to prove they loved me. Let me share a for instance:

My sons were in their teens, I had been divorced for 10 years, and had just met a new man. We had dated for about 2 months. He wasn't very affectionate or attentive and I was feeling very unsure of his love. When a Borderline feels unsure, it's WAY above and beyond what you might think of as unsure ... it's panic, it's horrible fear, it's terrible.

I went out drinking at a local bar, drank until I had a buzz, waited until I knew he would be out of work, called him and told him that there were 2 men at the bar, that were trying to pick me up, and were threatening to 'get' me in the parking lot. He came to get me ...

When we got home ... I was only a bit drunk, but told him that I had taken a bottle of pills. He called the medics, etc. ... and I was taken to the hospital. I came clean in the ER with a woman doctor.

As you can see, I carried the lie and actions out ... to be SURE this man loved me and cared enough to take care of me. Crazy? Not to a Borderline, it's the ever present threat of abandonment that keeps us doing these things, until we feel completely secure, and some never do.

Let me end this here, and continue about 'lying' in the next post.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Wow! What an enlightening thread. My son is Bi Polar with Antisocial disorders (not sure of the exact words to use for the diagnosis). He is 35 now and his father was diagnoised Bi Polar but I am sure there were other problems never diagnoised. Thankfully my son now takes his meds and understands what his problems are. It has been a long, hard road and I am very proud of him!

I sincerely HOPE that Cindy reads all of these posts. Maybe it will give her the strength to seek out help and support for what she is facing right now. May all of you wlk with peace in your life, you deserve it!

 

[aprilshowers]

Casey's affect seems not just flat to me but.....empty..... if that is possible. Like there is nothing at all behind her eyes. I kind of had the same feeling when looking at Ted Bundy's eyes when he seemed to be smiling.

I can't speak for KC personally, but you'd be surprised at what's 'behind' the eyes of some of those who look as though there's nothing there!

Sometimes, there is fear, anger, insecurity, and more fear.
Sometimes, there is deep hurt, feeling totally alone, and desperate.

But it doesn't always 'show' behind the eyes.

 

[nursebeeme]

thank you for that insight April!

 

[aprilshowers]

thank you for that insight April!

Welcome

 

[kiki the parrot]

The honesty in this thread is rare, I'm grateful that at least all the suffering + time = exceptional hindsight in alot of your cases--and insights into the troubling case of KC. Whatever else she may have going on, the narcissism alone, and to whatever extent, could have caused the neglect, and death, of her child. What is harder to define/dx, IMO, is of course all of the cover-up. Pathological narcissism could easily explain the unwillingness to admit such a tragic mistake though. Many people with NPD are compulsive, serial liars. There was clearly envy, a sense of entitlement, no empathy for others, a pattern of exploiting, a false, inflated self etc. It seems all of this, in the wake perhaps of an unintentional but negligence scenario, could have made admitting the truth akin in a person like this to annhilation. It was almost a self-fulfilling prophecy, the way CA is constantly telling her what a bad mother she is... then when you read the interview with her brother when pressed for the truth what does she keep repeating over and over? "Maybe Mom's right, maybe I am an unfit mother afterall," (paraphrase) That's always been a flashing neon sign to me--she comes as close as she can muster to telling the truth. She makes similar statements to LE, "I know my mother will NEVER forgive me," but soon reverts to self-deprecating ("Maybe I'm just a spiteful b*") and then by the time CA returns she's resumed the fabricating. IMO she was lying then--and continues to lie--to protect CA's feelings. Definitely some kind of caretaking and emotional enmeshment going on there, this girl would rather serve life (or death) than face her mother with the truth.

 

[nursebeeme]

The other thing that was revealing to me, kiki, was her first phone covo from jail when she goes from saying "honey" and "love" to her bff (supposed) Kristina to yelling and cursing...like two different people.

I should have prefaced that I have talked out of both sides of my mouth before. However, I think the situation in which she was doing it was very inappropriate.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

The other thing that was revealing to me, kiki, was her first phone covo from jail when she goes from saying "honey" and "love" to her bff (supposed) Kristina to yelling and cursing...like two different people.

I should have prefaced that I have talked out of both sides of my mouth before. However, I think the situation in which she was doing it was very inappropriate.

Yes, Nurse, but at least it was your mouth.

Think lower and to the rear for a pathological liar.

 

[Blackwatch]

The honesty in this thread is rare, I'm grateful that at least all the suffering + time = exceptional hindsight in alot of your cases--and insights into the troubling case of KC. Whatever else she may have going on, the narcissism alone, and to whatever extent, could have caused the neglect, and death, of her child. What is harder to define/dx, IMO, is of course all of the cover-up. Pathological narcissism could easily explain the unwillingness to admit such a tragic mistake though. People with NPD are compulsive, serial liars. There was clearly envy, a sense of entitlement, no empathy for others, a pattern of exploiting, a false, inflated self etc. It seems all of this, in the wake of an unintentional but negligence scenario, could have made admitting the truth akin in a person like this to annhilation. It was almost a self-fulfilling prophecy, the way CA is constantly telling her what a bad mother she is... then when you read the interview with her brother when pressed for the truth what does she keep repeating over and over? "Maybe Mom's right, maybe I am an unfit mother afterall," (paraphrase) That's always been a flashing neon sign to me--she comes as close as she can muster to telling the truth. She makes similar statements to LE, "I know my mother will NEVER forgive me," but soon reverts to self-deprecating ("Maybe I'm just a spiteful b*") and then by the time CA returns she's resumed the fabricating. IMO she was lying then--and continues to lie--to protect CA's feelings. Definitely some kind of caretaking and emotional enmeshment going on there, this girl would rather serve life (or death) than face her mother with the truth.

Very good post, insightful. However - the dynamics may be a bit different than we think. Cindy is throwing Casey under the bus (the whole family is), and yet, Cindy will not allow the world to believe any of HER children would be capable of such a thing. You see, if Casey were capable of killing Caylee, it would be a reflection on Cindy - and that cannot be allowed.

I come from a family almost this disfunctional, it went back generations, and it's still going on. I have a grandkid that looks at me so speculatively I know she's measuring me for cement overshoes.