My Theory

[Compassionate Reader]

Yes, the State did say that the murders were Satanic. This is from Fogleman's closing statement in the Echols/Baldwin trial:

"The testimony in this case was that these murders -- when you take the crime scene, the injuries to these kids, the testimony about sucking of blood--and do you remember there was testimony about that--in the satanic areas, that blood is a life force, there is a transference of power from drinking of blood -- when you take all of that together, the evidence was that this murder had the trappings of an occult murder. A satanic murder."

http://www.callahan.8k.com/wm3/ebtrial/closefogleman.html

Please note the part in bold. If the State didn't believe that the murders were Satanic, why would they beat the bushes to find a witness to testify about the occult? Unfortunately for them, all they found was "Dr." Griffis.

Saying that the murders were Satanic is the same as saying that the murders were part of a Satanic ritual because that's what a "satanic murder" meant. It's a distinction without a difference. Also, IMO, one of the reasons that the State so readily accepted the Alford Plea is the loss of the whole Satanism angle.

Since "Satanic panic" is no longer rampant, the State couldn't use the whole Satanism idea in an obvious attempt to frighten and influence the jury. Therefore, they have no motive. I know that providing a motive is not mandatory. However, I also know that most juries won't convict without it.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Here is the closing of the other Prosecutor (there was more than one) - Davis during the guilt phase of the trial of Echols/Baldwin
http://www.callahan.8k.com/wm3/ebtrial/closedavis.html


Penalty phase arguments for same trial

Davis
http://www.callahan.8k.com/wm3/ebtrial/ppdavis.html

Fogelman
http://www.callahan.8k.com/wm3/ebtrial/ppfogleman.html


They may have gotten the satanic idea from Echol's mother/family. Here is a document from the Exhibit 500 files.

This one talks about the family calling the police on him, threats of violence towards himself and others and satanism and devil worship and has items related to that. It also says that the family tells of threats to cut his mother's throat and harm his father.
http://callahan.8k.com/images/500/1/104.jpg


So I guess that the state got that idea from his family and his mental health background.


Here in his own handwriting when he applied for disability benefits he claims to be a sociopath
http://callahan.8k.com/images/500/1/111.jpg

 

[Cappuccino]

The state got the idea of Satanism as a motive from Jerry Driver and Steve Jones, who were both true believers in Satanic Ritual Abuse. They were driving round the place for around a year before the murders looking for signs of satanic activity, and when someone has that mindset any murder that takes place will look Satanic to their eyes.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

The state got the idea of Satanism as a motive from Jerry Driver and Steve Jones, who were both true believers in Satanic Ritual Abuse. They were driving round the place for around a year before the murders looking for signs of satanic activity, and when someone has that mindset any murder that takes place will look Satanic to their eyes.

BBM

Not according to this medical record report from 9/2/92. It says that his parents were worried about him being 'into satanism or devil worship. He apparently has a number of items that relates to this'.

It also says that he has made threats to harm other people including cutting his mother's throat.

So, according to his family, Echols was involved in Satanism and Devil Worship and made threats to harm others.

It's only 1 page long, please take a look at this:
http://callahan.8k.com/images/500/1/104.jpg

 

[Cappuccino]

You're putting two and two together and making five there. Damien's parents weren't running the investigation into these murders, and held no influence with the WMPD, so whatever concerns they expressed privately to a doctor in 1992 were not the source of the WMPD's tunnel vision about Satanism.

That came from people inside the WMPD who were infected with Satanic Panic - Bryn Ridge, Steve Jones, Jerry Driver and others too. Steve Jones and Jerry Driver were driving around every full moon looking for signs of Satanic activity in West Memphis before those boys were even killed. Jerry Driver was asked for a list of local teens who he thought might be involved with Satanic activity - he gave ten names, and nine of them weren't Damien Echols. Do you think the other nine teens parent's said they were into Satanism too, or do you think maybe Jerry Driver was off on some trip of his own?

 

[UdbCrzy2]

You're putting two and two together and making five there. Damien's parents weren't running the investigation into these murders, and held no influence with the WMPD, so whatever concerns they expressed privately to a doctor in 1992 were not the source of the WMPD's tunnel vision about Satanism.

That came from people inside the WMPD who were infected with Satanic Panic - Bryn Ridge, Steve Jones, Jerry Driver and others too. Steve Jones and Jerry Driver were driving around every full moon looking for signs of Satanic activity in West Memphis before those boys were even killed. Jerry Driver was asked for a list of local teens who he thought might be involved with Satanic activity - he gave ten names, and nine of them weren't Damien Echols. Do you think the other nine teens parent's said they were into Satanism too, or do you think maybe Jerry Driver was off on some trip of his own?

You really do not think that it didn't have anything to do with his past?

Or with what his family reported about previous experience with Echols?

You do know that he had a criminal and mental health past don't you?

This is all documented and it was well before and leading right up to the time of the murders.

:banghead:

 

[Cappuccino]

I think Damien certainly became a target of Satanic Panic because of things in his past. But I've also seen enough of that particular phenomenom to know that even if Damien had been beamed up in a spaceship the day before these murders and never seen again, Driver and his ilk would still have been convinced that these murders were Satanic.

They would simply have found another target for it, that's all. (Remember, they had nine other names on their silly Satan list).

 

[claudicici]

....and what Damien's parents did reveal to the doctor just proves more how "satanic panic" was such a sign of that time.Parents were so afraid of it,Geraldo and the talk shows were feeding the panic,so of course us kids were using it as a shield and a weapon against the grown ups.I think Jason made that point clear during the Piers Morgan interview.The kids knew what it was about ,o the adults are the ones that turned it into something way more serious and sinister than what it was,so really it was effective as a teen angst tool but backfired big time on Damien.Because even now there are adults posting here that take a kids word for it when he writes down he's a sociopath....

 

[Cappuccino]

.and what Damien's parents did reveal to the doctor just proves more how "satanic panic" was such a sign of that time.Parents were so afraid of it,Geraldo and the talk shows were feeding the panic,

Yes, good point too. I remember when I was about 14 I overheard my mother express a fear to my father that I would grow up to be a heroin addict. On the face of it, it was a ridiculous thing to say, given that I'd never even smoked a regular cigarette at that age, let alone heroin! In fact, to this day I've never taken heroin, or any other illegal drug either, and I'm 31 now.

My mother is not a stupid woman, nor is she mad or delusional, so why would she harbour such a bizarre fear?

Well, maybe because the tabloids at the time were stuffed full of horror stories about young people being sucked into the heroin trade, and how heroin dealers pull all kinds of cunning tricks to get innocent kids addicted. There were even stories about fake ice cream vans being sent around with ice cream spiked with heroin to get young children addicted.

As all this was going on, I was 14 and starting to question her authority. Nowhere near as rebellious as Damien Echols, but definitely no longer her obedient little angel either. So even though my mother is a sensible woman, and not some control freak, she did panic for a bit when her daughter started to show signs of exercising independent judgement. Its a natural fear for a responsible parent, I think.

If the media bangs on about how the world is full of Satanists/heroin dealers/or some other Scary Thing Du Jour, and my child is no longer listening to me.....its natural for a loving parent to temporarily panic.

However, the words of a parent in that state should not be taken as Gospel about their child, and I would hope any psychiatrist would know that. If not, the psychiatric profession needs to learn a bit more about human nature.

 

[Junebug99]

I remember a daycare (can't think of the name) was shut down and the owners were accused of doing horrific things to the children, all in the name of Satan. It's amazing the fear our media can create, and they thrive on it!

 

[claudicici]

yes,the McMartin pre-school.I think that case has a lot in common with this one as far as how the investigation was handled,the interrogation methods,the false confessions,the panic that was created....
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial"]McMartin preschool trial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[soothsayer]

Back in the '60s and '70s as kids (pre ninja turtles) we were able to lift manhole covers in order to climb down into the sewers. Even as very young kids we could get the heavy metal lids off with a large screwdriver or rod, and sometimes even a sturdy stick. You'd need to lift them to retrieve your baseball that inevitably ran straight down the sewer when you were playing in the street. Also, some of the tunnels (pipes) were quite large, and you could easily cross the county just by zipping along through the sewer system. The sewers were kind of cool to play in.

 

[justthinkin]

The bars in the upper left photo can be moved, I believe with the same sort of hook-like tool found at the discovery ditch. As you can see, the covers on some of the manholes were often left askew. BTW, these are actual photos of manholes in the area at the time. Some have been mysteriously closed and/or given a "facelift" since 1993. Go figure.

I was really interested in seeing the manhole photos, but it took me awhile to track down what thread my question about them was in. The search tool would have been faster, eh?


That hook tool that was found does look like it is for removing manhole covers. I don't believe that kind of tool would be applicable to the rebar grates in the upper left photo though. I would imagine those rebar grates are set into both upper and lower sections of the concrete storm drain itself.

All the sewer access points depicted appear in various states of decline and are hazardous or quite outmoded. It's not at all surprising they were removed or replaced.

 

[justthinkin]

Your question was why move the bodies?


When were the bodies moved? IMO, in all probability, the bodies were moved between 3 am and 5 am on the 6th of May. Most of the searching had stopped by around 3 am, and, as soon as he was sure that everyone was at home in bed and in an exhausted sleep, he returned to the manhole, pulled the bodies out, hogtied them and transported them the short distance to the ditch.

This is pure speculation and is misleading since there is nothing to confirm this took place. This is your opinion being stated as fact.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

No, it's stated as her theory.

 

[h818]

....and what Damien's parents did reveal to the doctor just proves more how "satanic panic" was such a sign of that time.Parents were so afraid of it,Geraldo and the talk shows were feeding the panic,so of course us kids were using it as a shield and a weapon against the grown ups.I think Jason made that point clear during the Piers Morgan interview.The kids knew what it was about ,o the adults are the ones that turned it into something way more serious and sinister than what it was,so really it was effective as a teen angst tool but backfired big time on Damien.Because even now there are adults posting here that take a kids word for it when he writes down he's a sociopath....

He was 18. It was a social security application. It is a crime to make fraudulent claims on SS applications. Just curious, at what age does someone stop being a kid to you? At what age does a person begin to be responsible for what they do and say?

 

[claudicici]

Damien's parents did not mention that they are afraid he may be into satanic worship on a social security application.They mentioned it to a doctor.
Some people never stop being a kid.It all depends.Damien sure grew up however.
IMO people are always responsible for what they say and do.Even children.
People say and do things for reasons.Even children.Damien had reasons to rebel.
He did not have reasons to kill 3 little boys he did not even know.
If he would have killed his parents,shot up his school or killed his ex-girlfriend the medical records would be valid records to use against him.
Aparently none of his problems led to a crime.Unless I see any evidence that tells me otherwise he was only responsible for having issues that affected him and his family only.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

All the sewer access points depicted appear in various states of decline and are hazardous or quite outmoded. It's not at all surprising they were removed or replaced.

However, they weren't all repaired. Some were removed. One had part of the exterior smoothed (while leaving a big chunk missing). Others were simply left as they were. All of this was done after the Manhole Theory was made public. The big question is why was one manhole singled out for a semi-facelift (which basically merely smoothed the part of the surface that might have been matched up to scrapes on one of the victims)? Also, why were some removed while the others were left alone? Yes, they all appear in need of repair, but they all weren't repaired or removed. That appears suspicions, at least IMO.

 

[h818]

Damien's parents did not mention that they are afraid he may be into satanic worship on a social security application.They mentioned it to a doctor.
Some people never stop being a kid.It all depends.Damien sure grew up however.
IMO people are always responsible for what they say and do.Even children.
People say and do things for reasons.Even children.Damien had reasons to rebel.
He did not have reasons to kill 3 little boys he did not even know.
If he would have killed his parents,shot up his school or killed his ex-girlfriend the medical records would be valid records to use against him.
Aparently none of his problems led to a crime.Unless I see any evidence that tells me otherwise he was only responsible for having issues that affected him and his family only.

I was responding to your statement "Because even now there are adults posting here that take a kids word for it when he writes down he's a sociopath...." Damien wrote that he was homicidal and psychotic on his SS application. He was 18, old enough to understand that it is a crime to falsify applications for government benefits.

And yes, his problems did effect people outside of his family. He got in trouble for being violent at school.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

This is the testimony of the defense's expert witness Dr. Moneypenny. I think this shows just how disturbed and dangerous Echols was during the time leading up to the murders.

___________________________________________________________

BY MR. FOGLEMAN:

Q: Doctor Moneypenny, I believe that you had indicated in your direct testimony something about in your meetings with Damien -- something about the hair on the back of your neck standing up or not standing up?

A: I was comparing and contrasting my reaction to Damien with that of other -- criminals.




A: (READING) Damien explains that he obtains his powers by drinking blood of others. He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner. This is achieved by biting or cutting. He said, quote, it makes me feel like a god, end quote.

Q: It makes him feel like what?

A: A god.

Q: A god. Okay. Go ahead.

A: (READING) Damien describes drinking blood as giving him more power and strength.
Then later on the page -- (READING) He has also agreed to continue to discuss his issues with power and control as related to his practice of rituals.


A: (READING) Quote, I just put it all inside, end quote.
(READING) Describes this as more than just anger like rage. Sometimes he does, quote, blow up, end quote.
(READING) Relates that when this happens, the only solution is to hurt someone. That's in quotes.
(READING) Damien reports being told in the hospital that he could be another Charles Manson or Ted Bundy. When questioned on his feelings he states, quote I know I'm going to influence the world. People will remember me, end quote.

MR. FOGLEMAN: We would offer State's Exhibit 500, these medical records.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/ebtrial/jmoneypenny.html