My Theory

[UdbCrzy2]

Here are the statements and the audio where he says 'thang' and they ask him if he knows what a penis is. He also says bottom not buttom here.

1st statement
JESSIE: I saw him cut one of the little boys

RIDGE: Alright, where did he cut him at?

JESSIE: He was cutting him in the face.

RIDGES: Cutting him in the face. Alright, another boy was cut I understand., where was he cut at?

JESSIE: At the bottom

RIDGE: On his bottom? Was he faced down and he was cutting on him, or

JESSIE: He was

GITCHELL: Now you're talking about bottom, do you mean right here?

JESSIE: Yes

GITCHELL: In his groin area?

JESSIE: Yes

GITCHELL: Okay

RIDGE: Do you know what his penis is?

JESSIE: Yeah, that's where he was cut at.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmjune1.html


2nd statement
Gitchell: Ok, did they do anything else to them to make them be quiet?

Jessie: They stuck their thang in their mouth.

Gitchell: Ok, did they, were they hitting them before that or afterwards?

Jessie: Before and after, just trying to keep them off of them.

Gitchell: Just all of the time?

Jessie: Just trying to keep Jason and Damien off of them.

Gitchell: Now they put their, whose shirts did they put in their mouth?

Jessie: Damiens.

Gitchell: Ok, alright hold on just a minute, -pause- Let me ask you something else,
Jessie, I'm sorry, I keep coming back and forth, but I got people that want me to ask you some other questions, uh talking about oral sex, did you see, you know we had talked earlier about how Jason and uh Damien do each other, have sex with each other did they, did they have oral sex on the boys?

Jessie: Yeah, they, they, one of them stuck their thang in one of the boys mouth while the other one got the other one up the butt and stuff.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmjune2.html


Audio for both statements is here
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/audio.html

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Well, for some reason the board website isn't allowing the characters to go through. But, I have seen that site and am waiting for part 3.

 

[ynotdivein]

If you type in a site and it comes up ********, that means there is a reason that that site is not allowed to be linked at WS.

Please do not copy & paste or post about items that are posted on ***** sites, as that is a violation of TOS.

 

[JBean]

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[claudicici]

Well, I don't know how Misskelley would have pronounced Satan if he were to read it instead of hearing someone say it. Could have mistaken it for Satin if he read it.

As far as knowing what a penis is. Would he call it a penis or just call it something else like 'thang'? I guess they wanted verification of what a 'thang' was. Was Misskelley familiar with medical terminology?


(illegible note in margin) Had hands over their mouth/to keep quiet
Also - Put shitr into their mouths
Stuck their- thang (Penis) in mouth
iKept hitting the boys - all the time
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jm_gg2.html

you know anyone with an elementary school education knows what a penis is,you know anyone with an elementary school education can read "satan"

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Here are the statements and the audio where he says 'thang' and they ask him if he knows what a penis is. He also says bottom not buttom here.

1st statement
JESSIE: I saw him cut one of the little boys

RIDGE: Alright, where did he cut him at?

JESSIE: He was cutting him in the face.

RIDGES: Cutting him in the face. Alright, another boy was cut I understand., where was he cut at?

JESSIE: At the bottom

RIDGE: On his bottom? Was he faced down and he was cutting on him, or

JESSIE: He was

GITCHELL: Now you're talking about bottom, do you mean right here?

JESSIE: Yes

GITCHELL: In his groin area?

JESSIE: Yes

GITCHELL: Okay

RIDGE: Do you know what his penis is?

JESSIE: Yeah, that's where he was cut at.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmjune1.html


2nd statement
Gitchell: Ok, did they do anything else to them to make them be quiet?

Jessie: They stuck their thang in their mouth.

Gitchell: Ok, did they, were they hitting them before that or afterwards?

Jessie: Before and after, just trying to keep them off of them.

Gitchell: Just all of the time?

Jessie: Just trying to keep Jason and Damien off of them.

Gitchell: Now they put their, whose shirts did they put in their mouth?

Jessie: Damiens.

Gitchell: Ok, alright hold on just a minute, -pause- Let me ask you something else,
Jessie, I'm sorry, I keep coming back and forth, but I got people that want me to ask you some other questions, uh talking about oral sex, did you see, you know we had talked earlier about how Jason and uh Damien do each other, have sex with each other did they, did they have oral sex on the boys?

Jessie: Yeah, they, they, one of them stuck their thang in one of the boys mouth while the other one got the other one up the butt and stuff.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmjune2.html


Audio for both statements is here
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/audio.html

I am presuming that the "2nd Statement" is the "clarification" statement made on June 3, 1993, after Judge Pal Rainey refused to arrest the three based on Jessie's original statement on that same date because the original statement was so error-filled. IMO, much of the second statement was a result of leading questions (and it, too, was error-filled). In particular, the use of "thang" could easily be in response to something the interrogators said that prompted Jessie to know that they were interested in injuries to the genital area.

Let's examine what happened in these statements. In the first statement, the interrogator leads Jessie into knowing what they want by first indicating his groin area when Jessie had said that the boy was cut "at the bottom" so it makes sense that during the "clarification" statement, Jessie mentions a penis by using the term "thang." However, when using the term "thang," he's not discussing Chris' injuries; he's talking about sodomy and fellatio that never occurred, even according to Peretti.

 

[AngelontheRiver]

This is the first time I have posted. I read here constantly. I do not think Misskelley lied or was coerced. His confessions are really the key. I have a relative with a documented IQ of 79. She managed to graduate college, be become a teacher, marry, buy a house, etc.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

I am presuming that the "2nd Statement" is the "clarification" statement made on June 3, 1993, after Judge Pal Rainey refused to arrest the three based on Jessie's original statement on that same date because the original statement was so error-filled. IMO, much of the second statement was a result of leading questions (and it, too, was error-filled). In particular, the use of "thang" could easily be in response to something the interrogators said that prompted Jessie to know that they were interested in injuries to the genital area.

Let's examine what happened in these statements. In the first statement, the interrogator leads Jessie into knowing what they want by first indicating his groin area when Jessie had said that the boy was cut "at the bottom" so it makes sense that during the "clarification" statement, Jessie mentions a penis by using the term "thang." However, when using the term "thang," he's not discussing Chris' injuries; he's talking about sodomy and fellatio that never occurred, even according to Peretti.

That's an interesting opinion. Do you have a link? Sounds very interesting.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I've shown you documents of the defense experts testimony in the posts above this one clearly indicating that his IQ was not low.

I guess that we will just have to agree to disagree about Misskelley's IQ

I've pointed out to you in these same documents that the witness was talking about the performance portion of the IQ test, not the full scale IQ score. Look at it this way. A student's grade point average (GPA) is made up of the average of all of his class grades. If a student has a "D" average, that doesn't mean that he couldn't have a "B" in one class.

That's a simplistic explanation of the difference between the full scale IQ score (which for Jessie has consistently been in the 70 - 74 range, making him borderline mentally retarded) and his score on one part of the IQ test, the performance portion where he has on several occasions scored in the mid to upper 80's. Again, please remember that "average" (or "normal" if you will) on an IQ test (or either part of it) is 90 - 100. By any measure, Jessie's IQ is below average and, when his full scale score is considered (which is the score that is quoted as someone's IQ), he is borderline mentally retarded.

 

[I Must Break You]

so why are you arguing against Jessie's low IQ then ,when you obviously know it's low?

Your right everyone can agree that JM has a low IQ and is not that bright... But what does that matter anyways. Nons act like if they can prove he isn't a complete dullard then it proves his confessions weren't coerced, but that would be false anyways. Ever heard of the Norfolk four? Four guys coerced into confessing in taking part in a rape/murder and these guys were military men, now you don't have to be all that bright to join the military (something I know all too well) but you can't be borderline retarded and pass the ASVAB. So proof that his IQ really means nothing when it comes to his confession... Norfolk police got four guys to do the same.

 

[belimom]

I've pointed out to you in these same documents that the witness was talking about the performance portion of the IQ test, not the full scale IQ score. Look at it this way. A student's grade point average (GPA) is made up of the average of all of his class grades. If a student has a "D" average, that doesn't mean that he couldn't have a "B" in one class.

That's a simplistic explanation of the difference between the full scale IQ score (which for Jessie has consistently been in the 70 - 74 range, making him borderline mentally retarded) and his score on one part of the IQ test, the performance portion where he has on several occasions scored in the mid to upper 80's. Again, please remember that "average" (or "normal" if you will) on an IQ test (or either part of it) is 90 - 100. By any measure, Jessie's IQ is below average and, when his full scale score is considered (which is the score that is quoted as someone's IQ), he is borderline mentally retarded.

I'm coming into this discussion late, so I apologize if this has been explained elsewhere.

As a School Psychologist, I have given hundreds of IQ tests. When someone is borderline MR or truly MR, they have what we call a "flat profile", meaning that everything is low across the board (scores, grades, etc). When someone has spikes with higher scores in some areas than others, then it is usually attributed to a learning disability, an emotional disability, or just that person's profile -- in other words, we all have strengths/weaknesses.

Despite written regulations about what qualifies as MR or not, it all comes down to a clinical interpretation. And that means from a whole team of people - psychologist, teachers, and parents. If someone has a low IQ score but performs well in the classroom, no IEP team will quality that child as MR. It's just not that cut and dry. There are often many heated discussions about whether or not a child qualifies as MR.

So with scores in the 80s, I'd have my doubts.

By the way, "average" is 90-110... or some will say even 85-115, because that's one standard deviation above and below the mean of 100.

If there a link to the report(s)? TIA...

ETA: If the Performance scores were higher and the person has a speech/language disability, then the Verbal will be lower. This is especially true on all of the Wechsler (WPPSI, WISC, WAIS) scales between they are so heavily verbally loaded.

 

[Cappuccino]

Your right everyone can agree that JM has a low IQ and is not that bright... But what does that matter anyways. Nons act like if they can prove he isn't a complete dullard then it proves his confessions weren't coerced, but that would be false anyways. Ever heard of the Norfolk four? Four guys coerced into confessing in taking part in a rape/murder and these guys were military men, now you don't have to be all that bright to join the military (something I know all too well) but you can't be borderline retarded and pass the ASVAB. So proof that his IQ really means nothing when it comes to his confession... Norfolk police got four guys to do the same.

I've always thought the argument about Jessie's IQ to be a waste of time, because people in all IQ ranges have made false confessions. The Central Park Five all confessed, and the lowest IQ among them was 87, so placing Jessie's IQ in the 80s isn't going to make his confession come true.

 

[claudicici]

I agree,the only thing I think is important about Jessie's IQ to me is that it's a lie when people claim LE thought Jessie was not slow.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I'm coming into this discussion late, so I apologize if this has been explained elsewhere.

As a School Psychologist, I have given hundreds of IQ tests. When someone is borderline MR or truly MR, they have what we call a "flat profile", meaning that everything is low across the board (scores, grades, etc). When someone has spikes with higher scores in some areas than others, then it is usually attributed to a learning disability, an emotional disability, or just that person's profile -- in other words, we all have strengths/weaknesses.

Despite written regulations about what qualifies as MR or not, it all comes down to a clinical interpretation. And that means from a whole team of people - psychologist, teachers, and parents. If someone has a low IQ score but performs well in the classroom, no IEP team will quality that child as MR. It's just not that cut and dry. There are often many heated discussions about whether or not a child qualifies as MR.

So with scores in the 80s, I'd have my doubts.

By the way, "average" is 90-110... or some will say even 85-115, because that's one standard deviation above and below the mean of 100.

If there a link to the report(s)? TIA...

ETA: If the Performance scores were higher and the person has a speech/language disability, then the Verbal will be lower. This is especially true on all of the Wechsler (WPPSI, WISC, WAIS) scales between they are so heavily verbally loaded.

IIRC, the scores in the 80's were from tests done after he dropped out of school, in fact, after he was arrested. Again, the 80's were not the full scale scores but the scores on the performance portion of the test. I'm well aware of the possibility of a learning disability, but, IIRC, none of the testing done while Jessie was attending school indicated any learning disability, per se, just a low IQ. I have suspected fetal alcohol syndrome, but I don't have a lot of experience with that diagnosis. I'm unsure of whether or not the birth mother was an alcoholic. I know that she was out of the picture at an early age (IIRC, three or four).

As I've said before (BTW, I'm a retired high school teacher), IQ alone is not sufficient to classify someone. Other tests have to be done. Jessie was in Special Education classes (not mainstreamed, but what we called Resource Classes in TX) from an early age. I agree that one of Jessie's strengths seems to be the ability to adapt to his surroundings which, IIRC, could lead to elevated performance scores.

The scores from his school are not available as they are confidential. The defense erred in not requesting them. We know of his attendance in SE classes from interviews with the teachers at the high school he attended. Mara Leveritt, the author of Devil's Knot, conducted these interviews, but the defense never called any of the teachers during the trial. The psychologists that conducted the testing after his arrest used the WAIS test, IIRC.

Jessie's grades were consistently poor, again according to the teachers from his school. I don't believe that he has a speech impediment or other problem of that sort. In short, IMO, the elevated performance scores were probably because adapting to his surroundings is one of Jessie's strengths. From what I remember from my students, many of the slower students (those in Jessie's IQ range) had that ability.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that the actual tests and responses are available. All we have is the testimonies of the various psychologists who gave the tests in the trial and in the Rule 37 hearings. These are available on callahan's.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Any of the video I have seen of Misskelley indicates to me that he does not have a mental disability. Why is Echols calling him retarded? I guess with all the spin going on it's no wonder that many supporters believe this, but it's not true.

 

[claudicici]

Are you talking about the interview Damien gave when he was in prison for about a year?
When he said something along the lines that he doesn't have time for "ugly and retarded" and Jessie is both?
That was a very long time ago,Damien was sitting on death row because of Jessie's false confession.I think having some sort of anger about that is more than natural.
I'm actually surprised that there do not seem to be any hard feelings left at all.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Echols still calls Misskelley retarded, but we all know that is not the truth.

Speaking of truth, when does Echols tell the truth?

During his interview with Piers Morgan he told him that he had NEVER been in trouble when the fact is that all three convicted murders had an extensive criminal record. So, he lied. I think you can agree to that too.

 

[Cappuccino]

Echols still calls Misskelley retarded, but we all know that is not the truth.

Speaking of truth, when does Echols tell the truth?

During his interview with Piers Morgan he told him that he had NEVER been in trouble when the fact is that all three convicted murders had an extensive criminal record. So, he lied. I think you can agree to that too.

So you did actually watch the Piers Morgan interview, and take in the contents then? Great. In that case, why are you insisting in another thread that Damien has no contact with his son, when he said very clearly in that same interview that he does have contact with his son?

And kindly tell me about the extensive criminal record of all three - preferably without resorting to the usual spiteful hatred of Exhibit 500. TIA.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

So you did actually watch the Piers Morgan interview, and take in the contents then? Great. In that case, why are you insisting in another thread that Damien has no contact with his son, when he said very clearly in that same interview that he does have contact with his son?

And kindly tell me about the extensive criminal record of all three - preferably without resorting to the usual spiteful hatred of Exhibit 500. TIA.

Is that the ONLY interview Echols has had was with Piers Morgan???

If you were familiar with this case you would not be asking me to provide the documents of their criminal history. You will need to go do your research yourself at Callahans instead of relying on a MOVIE or BOOK...

Some people will say, oh, I know all about the case. When asked how did you find out about it, they say, 'I watched the movie or read the book'.

Problem is that some folks are just sheeple, they follow and do not care to find out themselves what's really going on.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

All of the video that I have seen of Jessie leads me to believe that he is borderline mentally retarded. I have worked with many students in this IQ range, so my opinion on this issue is somewhat biased by what I have seen of people in this range. However, I feel it is a good bias, more like an insight into people in this IQ range. But, that's just me.