Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #2

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Good work on the ring info and watch info, I know I read the police followed up on the serial number on the watch I wonder if they found out it was not made in the US

Thanks phenolred. I'm going to forward the info I found to LE just in case they don't have it. At the very least they can/did learn what year the watch was made. If they did follow up on the serial number then I'm sure they know it wasn't made in the US - what that means I'm not sure, but to someone familiar with the history of Bulova Accutron, the date codes may tell them where it was sold (ie, certain models were produced in certain countries in certain years). Of course, where the watch was SOLD is very important information, as that *could* be where John is from.
 
Phenolred and Marie - Excellent info on the shoes and the watch.

That's a good idea to forward the info on the watch to LE..I think I read somewhere that they did determine the watch was made in 1968 or 1969, but I can't find it at the moment. It would be great if they could tell from the serial # what country the watch was purchased in.
 
Ok I found this about her shoes.....Seems they didnt start selling them internationally until 1991....Hmmm

Does anyone remember Stride Rite stores from the 70's were they expensive shoes back then?

Good work on the research. They were good quality but reasonably priced shoes; we know her shoes came from he US.
 
Phenolred and Marie - Excellent info on the shoes and the watch.

That's a good idea to forward the info on the watch to LE..I think I read somewhere that they did determine the watch was made in 1968 or 1969, but I can't find it at the moment. It would be great if they could tell from the serial # what country the watch was purchased in.

Thanks Liz325. Can you please find for me the info about when the watch was made? Or let me know where to look? I've always thought that John looks older than the about 26yo age given, and a graduation gift watch from 1968 or 69 would mean I'm *not* right (an 18yo when a HS graduate, and 25-26yo 7 or 8 years later in 1976).

Btw, the serial # won't give them any more information, but the Date Code could :)
 
Since this fellow probably turned 18 before 1973, if he is an American, he would have had some type draft status. If anyone has access to old draft records maybe his initials could be checked against the rosters.
 
Thanks Liz325. Can you please find for me the info about when the watch was made? Or let me know where to look? I've always thought that John looks older than the about 26yo age given, and a graduation gift watch from 1968 or 69 would mean I'm *not* right (an 18yo when a HS graduate, and 25-26yo 7 or 8 years later in 1976).

Btw, the serial # won't give them any more information, but the Date Code could :)


Sorry, I meant date code. I'm reading and posting on here when I'm supposed to be working so I was in a hurry!

It was from the Doe Network where it said the watch was made in 1968. Here's the link to John Doe's page on the Doe Network and the statement about the watch. Thanks!

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/198umsc.html

Jewelry: He wore a Bulova Accutron yellow gold watch, serial number H918803 on his left hand. Bulova made the piece in 1968. But the company trashed its records when downsizing shortly thereafter, so no one knows where the watches were distributed. A 14 karat gold ring with a gray linde star stone that had the initials JPF engraved on the inside.
 
This composite is good it shows her teeth, I was reading that the male was wearing Levis too.

I wonder what type shoes I need to go back to the crime scene photo and see if it can be enlarged to see the shoe type....

189UFSC5.jpg


well I enlarged the photo of the crime scene and its too blurry to tell about his shoes...I wonder if they were generics? But usually wealthy people were good shoes...

I wonder if we could give the LE or Verna a link here I wish they would join & help answer some questions
 
Hi Everyone,

I wanted to update you on the potential lead on Dr. Forsey in Canada.

I chatted with a fellow websleuther here and we decided to telephone Verna Moore at the Sumter County Coroner's office and talk to her. I called her on Friday and I can't begin to tell you what a wonderfully nice lady she is.

She was THRILLED that people are still following this case and trying to come up with leads. She urged me to fax her the info on Dr Forsey and the other Canadian doctors I found. I faxed that information over to her on Friday.

She shared some other info about this case with me that with her permission I am going to post here as well. From what I could gather from her, the general feeling she has is that law enforcement in that county really has given up on solving this case. In fact, according to her, a lot of the evidence has been misplaced or even LOST. I think that there is not a lot of hope that the perp in this crime will be caught, it is more of a moral obligation she feels she has to try to find these people's relatives. We discussed the possiblility that these killings were drug related. Ms. Moore believes emphatically that this was a professional hit. They were executed. So the thought that they were running cocaine perhaps up and down the I-95 corridor is a very strong possibility. Also, the man at the KOA campground who supposedly met the male victim playing pool is now deceased, so there is no way to go back and talk to him. It is possible he met someone ELSE who looked similar and thinks that is the same person, so the Canada theory could be completely off-base.

About Dr. Forsey though: Verna called me this morning and I missed her, and then she called me back again just a short while ago and we talked. After our contact on Friday, she had her forensics guy look at the info I faxed her, and he said it was a solid lead so she called Dr Forsey in Montreal. She said he was very nice and told her he does not have boys and that no one in his family is missing.

They are still waiting for DNA and she promised me she would call me and let me know when the DNA results come in. If I hear from her, I'll post that info here. I am not sure how long it will take though.

She asked me specifically to THANK YOU ALL for still working on this case. She says that any and all solid leads are welcomed by her. She asks though that you NOT EMAIL THEM TO HER, as her email is not secure. She prefers you call her on her cell phone, 803-491-4088 (she gave me permission to post this) and she will discuss the situation with you and then you can fax any info to her directly.

Obviously we don't want to take up her time with leads that may not be promising so if you come up with something make sure you have lots of back up documentation for her forensics guy to research.

She hopes to get the mystery of this couple's identity solved soon, she plans to only run for re-election one more time in Sumter county before retiring.
 
Hi Everyone,

I wanted to update you on the potential lead on Dr. Forsey in Canada.

I chatted with a fellow websleuther here and we decided to telephone Verna Moore at the Sumter County Coroner's office and talk to her. I called her on Friday and I can't begin to tell you what a wonderfully nice lady she is.

She was THRILLED that people are still following this case and trying to come up with leads. She urged me to fax her the info on Dr Forsey and the other Canadian doctors I found. I faxed that information over to her on Friday.

She shared some other info about this case with me that with her permission I am going to post here as well. From what I could gather from her, the general feeling she has is that law enforcement in that county really has given up on solving this case. In fact, according to her, a lot of the evidence has been misplaced or even LOST. I think that there is not a lot of hope that the perp in this crime will be caught, it is more of a moral obligation she feels she has to try to find these people's relatives. We discussed the possiblility that these killings were drug related. Ms. Moore believes emphatically that this was a professional hit. They were executed. So the thought that they were running cocaine perhaps up and down the I-95 corridor is a very strong possibility. Also, the man at the KOA campground who supposedly met the male victim playing pool is now deceased, so there is no way to go back and talk to him. It is possible he met someone ELSE who looked similar and thinks that is the same person, so the Canada theory could be completely off-base.

About Dr. Forsey though: Verna called me this morning and I missed her, and then she called me back again just a short while ago and we talked. After our contact on Friday, she had her forensics guy look at the info I faxed her, and he said it was a solid lead so she called Dr Forsey in Montreal. She said he was very nice and told her he does not have boys and that no one in his family is missing.

They are still waiting for DNA and she promised me she would call me and let me know when the DNA results come in. If I hear from her, I'll post that info here. I am not sure how long it will take though.

She asked me specifically to THANK YOU ALL for still working on this case. She says that any and all solid leads are welcomed by her. She asks though that you NOT EMAIL THEM TO HER, as her email is not secure. She prefers you call her on her cell phone, 803-491-4088 (she gave me permission to post this) and she will discuss the situation with you and then you can fax any info to her directly.

Obviously we don't want to take up her time with leads that may not be promising so if you come up with something make sure you have lots of back up documentation for her forensics guy to research.

She hopes to get the mystery of this couple's identity solved soon, she plans to only run for re-election one more time in Sumter county before retiring.

WOW this is awesome!!!!!! it is nice to know she is so open and interested. I wonder if she can answer the question about an accent BUT if the KOA guy was wrong, then I guess that wouldnt matter. I am so excited that Dr Forsey was checked out, hopefully he wasnt lying.
 
WOW this is awesome!!!!!! it is nice to know she is so open and interested. I wonder if she can answer the question about an accent BUT if the KOA guy was wrong, then I guess that wouldnt matter. I am so excited that Dr Forsey was checked out, hopefully he wasnt lying.


I know, isn't it great!? Verna said she can usually tell when someone is lying and she said she believes Dr Forsey was sincere. She is such a neat lady. But it's also a bit sad to me, because it shows that there are just so many dead ends in this case! Since the KOA manager has passed away, it is hard to know if the person he told the police about was the same person as "Jacques" Doe or not.

Verna also told me that psychics have been consulted about this and both (independently of one another) stated the killings were drug related and very dangerous.

Interesting, eh?
 
Hey All
I've been reading this thread for a bit, its so sad this couple is still unidentified after all these years. I was wondering if anyone had taken a look at this case- sorry I can't figure out yet how to link directly to the case or pics yet.
Doe Network Case Number 886DMFL James Berkeley Norris
Also there is a myspace set up by his sister.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=155153127
The guy seems to have some similarities to the male victim but disappeared a few years before [while on trip buying drugs in florida]. Probably not him[diff initials etc] but maybe someone with a better eye than me could take a look at the faces and see if they match up at all.

Also I really think that the South America/Cuba angle is a good one. I'm thinking specifically of places like Argentina around that time, with SO many disappearances and obviously no government help to find the people. There are just so many possibilities with this case its hard to know which angle to look at first!
 
I think that looking at the watch's origins is a good idea. Now that I'm thinking more and more about the drug angle- it is possible the man got the watch from someone else. It was not unusual for people to trade jewelry or other valuables for coke in those days, so who knows?

There are a ton of forums for watch collectors on the internet, I found some recently when I was researching the railroad watch I inherited from my grandfather. Those folks might be a good resource to try for info on this:

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=threadt&frm_id=5

I wonder how possible it would be to get a digital photo of the watch and watch case to post on the watch forum?
 
Hey All
I've been reading this thread for a bit, its so sad this couple is still unidentified after all these years. I was wondering if anyone had taken a look at this case- sorry I can't figure out yet how to link directly to the case or pics yet.
Doe Network Case Number 886DMFL James Berkeley Norris
Also there is a myspace set up by his sister.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=155153127
The guy seems to have some similarities to the male victim but disappeared a few years before [while on trip buying drugs in florida]. Probably not him[diff initials etc] but maybe someone with a better eye than me could take a look at the faces and see if they match up at all.

Also I really think that the South America/Cuba angle is a good one. I'm thinking specifically of places like Argentina around that time, with SO many disappearances and obviously no government help to find the people. There are just so many possibilities with this case its hard to know which angle to look at first!

WOW!

Your missing guy looks like a possibility worth pursuing!! I wonder if the family has seen the story about SC? Can you contact them thru the myspace page and let them know? If he did not have facial hair he may be a very strong possibility!
 
Since this fellow probably turned 18 before 1973, if he is an American, he would have had some type draft status. If anyone has access to old draft records maybe his initials could be checked against the rosters.

Very good idea. Does the national archives have information like this or is it all private?
 
Very good idea. Does the national archives have information like this or is it all private?

It isn't available to the public via the National Archives. The Department of Defense probably has the records and they are private. It probably takes someone in active law enforcement to get access. Or maybe someone who is a retired colonel or someone whose brother is in the FBI. :)
 
I think that looking at the watch's origins is a good idea. Now that I'm thinking more and more about the drug angle- it is possible the man got the watch from someone else. It was not unusual for people to trade jewelry or other valuables for coke in those days, so who knows?

There are a ton of forums for watch collectors on the internet, I found some recently when I was researching the railroad watch I inherited from my grandfather. Those folks might be a good resource to try for info on this:

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=threadt&frm_id=5

I wonder how possible it would be to get a digital photo of the watch and watch case to post on the watch forum?

Good work on the info from Verna Moore, I'm glad you called her. I wanted to for a long time but I don't think I could articulate as well as you did...and I can tell she truly was grateful for our interest here at WS.

Speaking of the watch not actually being his...I thought the same thing about the linde star ring!!! What if that wasn't his and JPF weren't HIS initials! I don't want to think like that though. JPF is about all we have to go on to search for him!
 
I was thinking more about the drug angle too. I wonder if maybe he was Columbian, when I think Columbia I think Columbian drug Cartels. COCAINE. So, maybe the JP could be something like JUAN Pablo or something. Isnt Juan the spanish version of JOHN. I need to look and see if Columbia has a missing persons database.
 
Sapphire is the birthstone associated with September.

Looks like I have a lot of reading to catch up on. Great information from Verna Moore!
 
Very good idea. Does the national archives have information like this or is it all private?

The only public records available at this time are of those who died in the war or soon after coming home (from related injuries). It'll probably be another 30 years or so before Vietnam war records become public.
 
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