Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #6

[TedMac]

They were killed very cruelly... the woman's body expression at the murder scene sticks in your mind... you can see the sheer terror on her face...

Wonder what the motive was...

This case is just as bizarre is that boy in the box (or something) case.

BBM Without knowing the true identity of the couple, it is not easy to figure the motive. Several sleuthers and others think they may be Michael & Cordelia McMinn-a couple reported missing at sea before the murders. If their theory is correct, drug smuggling may be the motive. Cluehunter84, brett1968 and teardrop have all researched this case extensively and have written some very good posts on the "Mystery Couple" and they are well worth reading.

 

[cluehunter84]

BBM Without knowing the true identity of the couple, it is not easy to figure the motive. Several sleuthers and others think they may be Michael & Cordelia McMinn-a couple reported missing at sea before the murders. If their theory is correct, drug smuggling may be the motive. Cluehunter84, brett1968 and teardrop have all researched this case extensively and have written some very good posts on the "Mystery Couple" and they are well worth reading.

Not me, I did some research and made a post, but I believe it's teardrop who has been the biggest advocate for it being the McMinn's. He/She has really researched them and the posts are really interesting to read but again, why after literally months and years can't we get some results with these labs? I think there was a post a few pages back from a blog that said they were not related and they were not European (or born and raised in Europe). I think all of us that frequent this board should push for somebody who can give this case some more exposure like with Grateful Doe on Huff Post I think, saw it through AOL.

People are still interested in the Jack the Ripper case and this week there was a story that has a likely suspect through DNA and that case is over 100 years old! It's not impossible, but if you are not interested in old cases like these or are just to busy in your life to fall into a case that has no names attached to it, than even if you knew these people or heard about it and have information, than unless it comes out on a popular show or as an article on a news website, it's just never going to get to the right person or the attention it deserves. Since the age of the case, it's not impossible that someone in their 50's or 60's that's not internet savvy or heard of this site, wouldn't have something to contribute if this reached a wider audience. I guess that goes for all the cases on websleuths...

Also what does BBM mean in the context of your post? I am terrible with acronyms.

 

[annemc2]

Also what does BBM mean in the context of your post? I am terrible with acronyms.

Bolded by me

 

[elliottness]

Hi everyone! It has been a long, long time since I've posted on here, but I haven't forgotten about this case or the people involved with helping to solve it. I was doing some research and came across the name of a Canadian doctor, Jacques Ferron. Dr. Ferron was born in 1921 and died in April 1985. He was from Quebec and in addition to being a physician was also an author. He was married twice and his second marriage was in 1952 to a Madeleine Lavalée.

So what do we have here? We've got a Canadian doctor, a prominent one at that, and one who would have been around the age to be a parent of a kid also named Jacque born presumably in the late 1950s/early 1960s. He also could have the initials "JPF". He's got the "J" and he's got the "F". Could his son have a middle name that started with the letter "P"?

 

[ChefOtheRuler]

Hello all, I've been lurking on this for awhile now, I figured it was my time to add my two cents.

To me, I feel the drug connection is very plausible due to the rather methodical and perhaps professional manner in which they were killed and disposed of. To me the murder suggests little chances of this being random, the person/persons that committed this act were cold, calculated, and above all, thorough. I don't believe the wallets were taken as a result of a robbery. Despite the fact the John Doe's watch was not one that would fetch a fortune on resale, I feel a Bullova is nice enough that a thief would have lifted it as well as the 14k ring. To me it makes more sense the wallets were removed to make it harder to identify them. I ran my theory past a friend of mine who was a drug mule in the late 90s- early 2000s. He said that when he worked he always brought a girl as a single man always raises more suspicion, also, he frequented places like the campground, because they were off the radar, and furthermore cheap. This stood out to him because In his case, he was paid a flat sum on delivery, so it was of more merit to stay at cheaper locations as his travel expenses were on him.


Over a bottle of whiskey we discussed this case at great length and our final joint conclusion was that this seems like a case of them making their drop, and being promptly executed for reasons likely lost over the years.

Just my thoughts.

 

[SherlockKittyCat]

Hello all, I've been lurking on this for awhile now, I figured it was my time to add my two cents.

To me, I feel the drug connection is very plausible due to the rather methodical and perhaps professional manner in which they were killed and disposed of. To me the murder suggests little chances of this being random, the person/persons that committed this act were cold, calculated, and above all, thorough. I don't believe the wallets were taken as a result of a robbery. Despite the fact the John Doe's watch was not one that would fetch a fortune on resale, I feel a Bullova is nice enough that a thief would have lifted it as well as the 14k ring. To me it makes more sense the wallets were removed to make it harder to identify them. I ran my theory past a friend of mine who was a drug mule in the late 90s- early 2000s. He said that when he worked he always brought a girl as a single man always raises more suspicion, also, he frequented places like the campground, because they were off the radar, and furthermore cheap. This stood out to him because In his case, he was paid a flat sum on delivery, so it was of more merit to stay at cheaper locations as his travel expenses were on him.


Over a bottle of whiskey we discussed this case at great length and our final joint conclusion was that this seems like a case of them making their drop, and being promptly executed for reasons likely lost over the years.

Just my thoughts.

Seems very plausible, thank you for your input. I think the reasons have definitely been lost over the years, and maybe if the two were recently acquainted and not a couple that maybe that's why no one knew "they" were missing, b/c maybe it was a guy from somewhere and a gal from somewhere else. Maybe they'd just hooked up? Maybe they didn't know each other well? Maybe we're looking for a missing gal and a missing guy, but not from the same region?

 

[cluehunter84]

Thinking about these two like I do everyday, I remembered somebody posting a news story some time ago about some local psychics who visited the grave sites of our does. I was looking for this again after reading through all the old posts but I could not find it and at the risk of going through all the pages again, I am going to repost the link below after I finally found it via internet searches. It's interesting if only for a close up of 3 of the crime scene photos, one that I have not seen anywhere else.

http://archive.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=94014 There are some pictures of the deceased, nothing overly graphic but just a warning, you can listen to the story just fine if the pictures will bother you.

I don't believe in ghosts or psychics personally but I wouldn't be opposed if I ever got down to visit the graves to talk to them and just let them know people care about them. Also reading about some other does that were given names after decades makes me hopeful that someday we get a resolution to this case, I know it will remain with me as it has since I heard about this case earlier this year.

Also I was reading about other Doe cases and this one about Mississippi County Does seemed really interesting to me, man and woman left on the side of the highway, miles apart though but people saw them together. Also the man was killed in a similar way to our Does. Very sad but felt similar to put it out there if anybody wanted to look into it. Not sure if there is a page on Websleuths about them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_County_Does

Finally somebody recently has done a very good job updating their wikipedia page for the Sumter County Does. When I first looked, it was void of pictures (note there is a crime scene photo and a morgue picture of each) and only a small paragraph or two, now it has lots more information and is a good introduction for anybody interested in the case, including many links to old newspaper articles and other things, some links already gave me trouble though. So thanks to whoever maintains that page, it all seemed very accurate and well written.

Just a little story, I was always interested in identifying Does but lacked the time with my job, when I lost it (my job not my mind ) earlier in the year I began looking into some. On wikipedia I came across this case, felt it interesting but there was not much info so I moved on. It stayed on my mind though and I had trouble locating the story so I could do another search (and discover this site!) and remembered the name being distinctive and the only thing I remembered was something to the effect of a young couple being let out of a van and executed, it just painted a tragic image in my mind. When I found Sumter County Does, I had a goofy moment where I read the articles wondering what Sumter County Did, reading it as perhaps one of them wore a shirt saying Sumter County Does...Great Things or something, the Does not as missing people but as does as in "Does he know the way". I read the articles wondering what Sumter County Does had to do with them until I realized, does as in John and Jane Doe. Strange story but I've come a long way since then!

With the case of Hannah Graham already on it's 14th Thread in little over a week and bringing in new members and guests, I hope some stick around and hopefully can contribute to the conversation on these Does and any others. I debated making a comment on that forum because of the popularity asking for people new to the site to please look around this site but didn't want to risk getting into trouble.

 

[Jondalar45]

When are they going to come out with the DNA results? I think it is the McMinns.

I just read this. Is this true?
John and Jane Doe are buried in Oswego, South Carolina. The McMinns ... are from Oswego Lake, Oregon.
What are the chances?

 

[prd2bokie]

Where did you read that?

 

[carbuff]

I've always thought she was local, flirting with "Jock" at the ice cream stand and someone connected to her (boyfriend maybe) got jealous and murdered them both.

 

[cluehunter84]

I've always thought she was local, flirting with "Jock" at the ice cream stand and someone connected to her (boyfriend maybe) got jealous and murdered them both.

That is an interesting theory. Although if she were local, she would probably have had enough connections for someone to notice she was missing and report her missing and for a connection to be made between a local woman and a woman found dead on the side of the road. They also had both bodies for viewing for about a year for families that thought it could be someone in their life that went missing.

I was wondering on my own since it was stated that the contents of their stomachs were fruit or fruit with ice cream, I wonder if it could have been yogurt since that is more common in my mind of what typically has fruit added to it. I wonder because the average time the food would stay in your stomach would be about 4-5 hours, probably a little less since I don't think fruit is that "solid". If they were estimated to have died early in the morning (don't know exactly was the estimate is, maybe 1-2 AM) than they probably ate very late (9-10 PM) so I wonder if that fruit stand was open or if they went to the supermarket regulary since if they were living at a campgrounds, they might not have been able to store anything fresh or something that needed to be refrigerated. I know I'm reaching, but if it was that late, I doubt they would be eating with someone they didn't know, so perhaps they had a cravings for yogurt and went to the supermarket and on the way back they were mugged or picked up a hitchhiker?

I don't know how big an impact the contents of a deceased person's stomach can have on an investigation, especially at a time before cameras were in every store like today. I know there was speculation that they were seen at a fruit stand with someone else, but I wonder if that was the last time they were seen alive? They ate so late it would seem that I doubt a fruit stand would be open after dark, they most likely went to a supermarket or a ice cream place. Although they could have just had the stuff already and bumped into the murderer to, just throwing out theories.

 

[Roselvr]

When are they going to come out with the DNA results? I think it is the McMinns.

I just read this. Is this true?
John and Jane Doe are buried in Oswego, South Carolina. The McMinns ... are from Oswego Lake, Oregon.
What are the chances?

You read that here which can be found on the crime library titled the mystery couple

John McMinn NamUs - Investigating Agency - Lake Oswego Police Dept

Michael MCMINN - As if this all wasn't eerie enough, there is a potential for a penultimate creepy fact.
John and Jane Doe are buried in Oswego, South Carolina. The McMinns ... are from Oswego Lake, Oregon.

Crime Library - The Mystery Couple - In August of 1976, a woman and a man were found slain beside a dirt road in Sumter County. The deaths are unsolved and they still are unidentified. But they are not forgotten.
The two people buried in Bethel United Methodist Church cemetery whose bronze plaques read ''Male Unknown, Aug. 9, 1976," and ''Female Unknown, Aug. 9, 1976,'' never attended a service at the Oswego church or paid tithes there. But for the past 24 years, the members of the church have made sure their resting places remain free of weeds and overgrown grass and that fresh bouquets of flowers mark their graves.

 

[carbuff]

Well, "local" as I was thinking of it could still be quite an area -- people from the city coming out to the country for a day's excursion or something along those lines, or somebody who worked in the area but lived somewhere else. It's also in the back of my mind that in that situation, it's quite likely the person (or people) who would report her missing would be the one(s) who caused the death.

 

[dotr]

Any fruit farms around there?
Could the couple have been stealing fruit to eat and a farmer shot them for it?

 

[TedMac]

When are they going to come out with the DNA results? I think it is the McMinns.

I just read this. Is this true?
John and Jane Doe are buried in Oswego, South Carolina. The McMinns ... are from Oswego Lake, Oregon.
What are the chances?

BBM The DNA was submitted in 2012. I would think thew results would be known by now. I too, believe it is a very good chance they are the McMinns. Hopefully, we will know soon.

 

[TedMac]

Any fruit farms around there?
Could the couple have been stealing fruit to eat and a farmer shot them for it?

They were shot "Execution Style". I doubt a farmer who kill like that.

 

[Jondalar45]

They have to have the results by now. They are just holding out. I bet it's them. Maybe they went missing on purpose because of the witness protection program, but someone found out where they were and killed them. Lost at sea was just a cover.

 

[TedMac]

They have to have the results by now. They are just holding out. I bet it's them. Maybe they went missing on purpose because of the witness protection program, but someone found out where they were and killed them. Lost at sea was just a cover.

BBM That has been suggested.

Also, others have theorized that they may have been caught transporting drugs in the Pacific and were working undercover for the Feds in exchange for leniency. During which time, either someone blew their cover or they were just killed by dealers and LE covered it up since they were working undercover. I find the latter a little far fetched, but stranger things have happened. That would explain why no relatives have reported them missing as their families thought they were lost at sea.

 

[cluehunter84]

What do others think about leaving the bodies so visible rather than hiding or burying them? Had the person(s) that murdered these two had them buried, and with nobody coming forward to claim them, these two would very literally have disappeared with no one looking for or missing them.

Do you think the killer was confident nobody would trace these two back to them, would it have been a warning to leave them so visible where they would be found right away as opposed to putting them in an empty field or somewhere where they wouldn't be found until they decomposed or were they in witness protection and wanted them to be found? Thankfully we at least have pictures of them, I wonder if the killer knew these two didn't have anybody looking for them, so didn't bother covering their tracks more.

What are some thoughts on being so casual with them as opposed to tucking them away in hopes of them never being discovered or not until sufficient time had passed to make ID and evidence minimal? Does that speak to a possibility of what the killers relationship to the victims or am I grasping at straws?

I remember another case where a woman and 3 children were found in oil drums and found decades apart, or Caledonia Jane who was left in a field, or the McStays found in an unmarked grave in the desert, here our Does were just left for anybody to drive by and see them. I don't know if there is any psychological reasoning behind that, since they could easily have been spotted executing them on a public road instead of taking them behind some closed business and doing it there. It's almost as if they picked up a hitchhiker and he or she pulled a gun on them and had them exit and decided it was safer to kill them then risk themselves being caught. Maybe they mentioned it was just the two of them and the killer thought that with them gone, nobody would report the vehicle stolen?

Just curious what others think, if it's common in crimes like this to not make more of an attempt to cover things up, and since they weren't discovered for several hours, if the killer knew that or not that the road wouldn't be used much at that hour so that was good as anywhere else and that whether or not pictures of the two could be taken, no evidence on them existed to ID them and nobody would ever be able to recognize them, as if they were tourists from outside the country and in that time it would be next to impossible if they were "backpacking" through the country that anyone would come across the Does since they could be anywhere and there are a lot of unsolved and unidentified murders especially difficult for their family if they didn't speak English in addition to being outside the country.

 

[carbuff]

It might indicate nothing more than the desire to get rid of the bodies as soon as possible.