Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #7 Pam Buckley & James P Freund

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Canada's Missing | Case details

On April 28, 1973, Guy Carignan was seen for the last time in Trois-Rivières, Quebec. He was to travel to Vancouver, British Columbia with a female friend. His family reported him missing on May 28, 1980. Investigations were conducted in Edmonton, Alberta and Vancouver, British Columbia. Law enforcement were unable to locate Guy or his female friend.

On April, 23, 1973, Lucie Gélinas was seen for the last time in Trois-Rivières, Quebec. She was supposed to go to Vancouver, British Columbia with a friend. Investigations were conducted and the location of Lucie and her friend have been unsuccessful.


Canada's Missing | Case details
 
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On April, 23, 1973, Lucie Gélinas was seen for the last time in Trois-Rivières, Quebec. She was supposed to go to Vancouver, British Columbia with a friend. Investigations were conducted and the location of Lucie and her friend have been unsuccessful.


Canada's Missing | Case details

I have a problem with dentals and scars for Lucie Gelinas.

UID:
Dentals: Available. No elaborate dental work. Missing upper and lower wisdom teeth on right. Has upper and lower wisdom teeth on left. Has fillings in all back teeth. If she were to smile, her teeth in the front would give an even appearance.
BBM

Lucie Gelinas:
Teeth
Protruding Uppers


The other issue is for UID:
Pierced ears, no surgical scars
BBM

While Lucie Gelinas had:
Scar
Abdomen, Liver surgery
BBM

Jane Doe and Lucie Gelinas can't be a match.
 
For Guy Carignan, no mention of apendicectomy while UID had one:
4" appendectomy scar.
For Guy, the only scar was:
Chest, red birthmark

UID doesn't have scar on chest:
Victim was possibly an aficionado of contact sports, judging by the suggestive scars on the back of his shoulder.
BBM

For me, they can't be a match.
 
I have a problem with dentals and scars for Lucie Gelinas.

UID:

BBM

Lucie Gelinas:

The other issue is for UID:
BBM

While Lucie Gelinas had:
BBM

Jane Doe and Lucie Gelinas can't be a match.

Was the UID specifically described as having no scar, or were there simply no scars listed in the description? I wish that they could be excluded based on the DNA findings, because their names keep coming to mind in this case.
 
It seems like there's a desperation to force them as French Canadian, because that's always been the conventional wisdom and the greatest investment in research. So we're scrambling for similar French Canadian charts.

Not so much, just pointing out that a GEDmatch "ethnicity" chart is not in fact very useful for determining the likely ethnic background of these people because many Northwestern Europeans will have very similar results. It's very likely to be similar to within 5 percent or so for most people of British/French/Dutch etc ancestry and is thus fairly useless. The most useful part of DNA testing is in the matches; if you have a significant number of DNA matches who are Irish, or Jewish, etc, then you yourself probably have Irish/Jewish/whatever ancestry. I see this in my own DNA matches; my ancestry is, as I said, American colonial and mostly British Isles, and all of my DNA matches who list all 4 grandparents as born in a specific non-US country are from the UK, Ireland, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand (and 23andMe helpfully informs me that "100% of your DNA matches has British and Irish ancestry").
 
Was the UID specifically described as having no scar, or were there simply no scars listed in the description? I wish that they could be excluded based on the DNA findings, because their names keep coming to mind in this case.
Lucie Gelinas is described as having a scar from liver surgery. She had surgery. Canada's Missing | Case details
"Wearing and features"

UID is described as "no surgical scars", word for word. So, she has not had surgery per 189UFSC
I quote word for word:
Distinguishing Marks/Features: She had two small hair moles on her left cheek and another on the right side of her face. Mole behind right leg (calf). Pierced ears, no surgical scars. She was attractive and had very long eyelashes. Although both the woman and man were white, investigators described their skin as smooth, with olive undertones. The girl had unshaven legs.
Bold + underlined + italics by me.
The absence of surgical scars is described. They didn't leave it blank.


So, UID had not had a surgery while MP had undergone surgery for her liver. We don't know when, but it's written in her file that she had liver surgery before going missing.
In those days, liver surgery were not like nowadays, by coelioscopy. You had to rip open.

See why Lucie Gelinas is a blatant rule-out for our couple now?
 
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For Guy, we also have a problem.
The only scar/mark is a birthmark on his chest. No apendicectomy, no scars behind his shoulder. Canada's Missing | Case details
"Wearing and features"


Meanwhile, UID is described as having appendicectomy scar & scars back of his shoulder by contact sports.
198UMSC

For me, Guy is not a match for our Jock Doe.
 
Let me search about proeminent french canadian doctor originating from those three countries, there was a wave of immigration in 1920-30 in Montreal. I will look for JPF.


There is a Dr John Paver Falkingham although he was born in England. I posted about him in the past but didn't really follow through with it. It may be worth taking another look.
There are a few reasons I was interested in Dr Falkingham other than the obvious ones. I will give a link to that post. It is #1654. And there's also some more things that I wasn't able to verify but I'm going to try again.

Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #6
 
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There is a Dr John Paver Falkingham although he was born in England. I posted about him in the past but didn't really follow through with it. It may be worth taking another look.
There are a few reasons I was interested in Dr Falkingham other than the obvious ones. I will give a link to that post. It is #1654. And there's also some more things that I wasn't able to verify but I'm going to try again.

Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #6
As per a newspaper clipping he was born and raised in England, received his medical training there, and came to Canada in 1960. In 1967, he was based in Saskatchewan (Swift Current). He only appears to have had two daughters, though.
 
The ring could have also belonged to an older relative... This being the case, it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Where to begin? Who to look for?
It is surely interesting to develop various theories but I HOPE we will get to know their identities and story soon. The rest of it (the ring, the racing T-shirt etc.) will be unveiled and explained, too.
 
The ring could have also belonged to an older relative... This being the case, it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Where to begin? Who to look for?
It is surely interesting to develop various theories but I HOPE we will get to know their identities and story soon. The rest of it (the ring, the racing T-shirt etc.) will be unveiled and explained, too.

Exactly. That's why I never devote any time to research like that. No matter how logical, a given angle isn't likely to reach even 1% on the probability scale.

This case lacked so many particulars that could have helped, like the KOA sighting involving both Does and not merely a male, or some mention of an accent or lack thereof, or the fruit stand sighting accompanied by greater detail.

Early investigators seemed to drop the ball. The fruit stand sighting is light years more valuable than the KOA anecdote. It was nearby and obviously reported in the immediate time frame. Once that aspect surfaced we should have one local article after another in the following days/weeks after the murders asking for anyone to come forward, who might have spotted the Does at that fruit stand or nearby. But I've seen nothing like that. I've read more than once that the fruit stand eventually closed but it was located on property that the same family continued to own for decades longer. Imagine all that time for investigators to drive over there and ask basic questions. Instead we've got nothing until a relative eventually pops up on social media -- or whatever -- saying it was her mom who saw the Does at the fruit stand.

Forensic genealogy has demonstrated that trying to identify Does is like a parlay. As a sports bettor I am constantly aware of the vast difference between a straight bet and a parlay. In a straight bet you wager on one team. That's it. But a parlay requires involves multiple variables and they all have to fall your way, otherwise you lose.

This is the parlay aspect of trying to match a name with a Doe:

* Person has to be reported missing in the first place. Hardly a given, as we have sadly seen far too often

* Law enforcement has to take the report seriously enough to take a record

* Law enforcement has to be competent and thoughtful enough to maintain and keep track of that record over time...which can be decades

* That record needs to find its way into online sources, and ones accessible by researchers

* The record needs to be detailed and accurate enough to align with logical search criteria toward that Doe

And so forth. Researchers are incredibly dedicated and admirable, but so often simply on the wrong end of a parlay.

That's why a Doe is identified and so often the reaction is...that's great but we've never heard that name
 
Exactly. That's why I never devote any time to research like that. No matter how logical, a given angle isn't likely to reach even 1% on the probability scale.

This case lacked so many particulars that could have helped, like the KOA sighting involving both Does and not merely a male, or some mention of an accent or lack thereof, or the fruit stand sighting accompanied by greater detail.

Early investigators seemed to drop the ball. The fruit stand sighting is light years more valuable than the KOA anecdote. It was nearby and obviously reported in the immediate time frame. Once that aspect surfaced we should have one local article after another in the following days/weeks after the murders asking for anyone to come forward, who might have spotted the Does at that fruit stand or nearby. But I've seen nothing like that. I've read more than once that the fruit stand eventually closed but it was located on property that the same family continued to own for decades longer. Imagine all that time for investigators to drive over there and ask basic questions. Instead we've got nothing until a relative eventually pops up on social media -- or whatever -- saying it was her mom who saw the Does at the fruit stand.

Forensic genealogy has demonstrated that trying to identify Does is like a parlay. As a sports bettor I am constantly aware of the vast difference between a straight bet and a parlay. In a straight bet you wager on one team. That's it. But a parlay requires involves multiple variables and they all have to fall your way, otherwise you lose.

This is the parlay aspect of trying to match a name with a Doe:

* Person has to be reported missing in the first place. Hardly a given, as we have sadly seen far too often

* Law enforcement has to take the report seriously enough to take a record

* Law enforcement has to be competent and thoughtful enough to maintain and keep track of that record over time...which can be decades

* That record needs to find its way into online sources, and ones accessible by researchers

* The record needs to be detailed and accurate enough to align with logical search criteria toward that Doe

And so forth. Researchers are incredibly dedicated and admirable, but so often simply on the wrong end of a parlay.

That's why a Doe is identified and so often the reaction is...that's great but we've never heard that name


Well I don't gamble. It's not like I got money on this or something. I work too hard for my money. If I keep my money in my pocket then I break even everytime. I like those odds.
As far as being wrong goes, I don't mind being wrong. I don't mind it one bit. I'm not here for pride, ego, being held in high regards or any other such thing as that. I'm here simply because I enjoy it and I like to help keep an old case alive and talked about. After all, aren't we all just amateur web sleuthers? I don't know how long you have to be a web sleuther to not be considered an amateur anymore. I don't think I've ever heard of one.
Anyways, we have a term around here for what you are talking about. We call it "going down a rabbit hole" and if it was not for all of us that are not afraid to go down a rabbit hole just think how boring this place would be.
 
The ring could have also belonged to an older relative... This being the case, it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Where to begin? Who to look for?
It is surely interesting to develop various theories but I HOPE we will get to know their identities and story soon. The rest of it (the ring, the racing T-shirt etc.) will be unveiled and explained, too.

I think it's like looking for a needle in a haystack regardless of who's ring it is. This case is still wide open and I agree with you that it will probably remain that way until we get a name.
 
So I understand I can't publish a class photo of 1966, from a Montreal's rich kids college? .One student with olive skin and dark eyebrows stucks out from the white students..? I guess this student must have been around 16 years old in 1966, it fits the profile.
Please advise
 
Thread is open again.

27 posts have been removed as a result of a random picture of a random individual.

Members could pick out thousands of images of random people who may resemble a victim. There is absolutely nothing to indicate who this person is or that they are even missing. Unless there is something to indicate that the person in the random picture is in fact missing, it is a total violation of that individual's privacy and of Websleuths TOS.

If there are some violations that we have missed, please Report them for review.

Thanks.
Bumping.
 
So I understand I can't publish a class photo of 1966, from a Montreal's rich kids college? .One student with olive skin and dark eyebrows stucks out from the white students..? I guess this student must have been around 16 years old in 1966, it fits the profile.
Please advise
Here’s a link where a mod explains why you cannot post the photo. Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #7
 
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