Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #7 Pam Buckley & James P Freund

[Sillybilly]

Thread closed for review.

Check back later.

 

[Sillybilly]

Thread is open again.

27 posts have been removed as a result of a random picture of a random individual.

Members could pick out thousands of images of random people who may resemble a victim. There is absolutely nothing to indicate who this person is or that they are even missing. Unless there is something to indicate that the person in the random picture is in fact missing, it is a total violation of that individual's privacy and of Websleuths TOS.

If there are some violations that we have missed, please Report them for review.

Thanks.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Or not; this is K13 for a French-Canadian from Quebec (this is why I say K13 is fairly useless):

And on edit, K36 map for the same French Canadian person:

That's why I wrote "most commonly" and not something like "always" or "vast majority."

It seems like there's a desperation to force them as French Canadian, because that's always been the conventional wisdom and the greatest investment in research. So we're scrambling for similar French Canadian charts.

I wasn't doing anything like that. I looked at multiple sites and didn't care about the ancestry at all. I approached it the same way I've always studied sports results, looking for systematic approach with little to no reliance on subjectivity. If the pie chart percentages were very close to Jane or Jock I took note of it. Only upon conclusion did I go back and see what those users were reporting about that ancestry. Using that method without bias the sample size wasn't as high as I would need to make a definitive conclusion, but there was no question British Isles were most frequent followed by Germanic. That is particularly true of Jane since her Baltic is close to 25%, unlike your chart which is less than 20% Baltic. Jock has lower Baltic than Jane, and without the slice of AmerIndian.

If the Sumter County Does turn out to be French Canadian, that's wonderful. It is actually preferable to European background since it should be easier for law enforcement and media to find and speak to any relatives or friends.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I found this information found at the link interesting. Especially the first comment after the article.

What is the Baltic States Ethnicity on Ancestry DNA ?

Thank you. I've noted on the genealogy sites that the most informed commenters focus on the Baltic percentage in particular, and especially if it is high...above 30%. They can look at the remainder of the person's chart and make some type of conclusion.

But the confidence level drops way down and the dispersion more severe if it is in the 20-25% range, which is where both Sumter County Does fall.

 

[Betty P]

Here's a link that gives a (very) brief history of Europeans moving to South America. The European makeup of SA countries varies from 97% to the low teens.

Most were of Portuguese or Spanish descent since up until the late 1800's other Europeans were forbidden from emigrating due to Portuguese and Spanish rule. In the early 1900s and up to after WW2 there was a large influx of other Europeans notably Germans to Argentina. So I think it's quite possible the two UIDs are from SA, not likely just based on logistics, but not completely out of the question either.

Europeans in South America.

Thank you, yes I'm aware of that history. I've traveled in South America before and know of this.

 

[Chantal]

I've been looking into the National Library at archives of some big Montreal newspapers, not one mentioned this case at all, from then until now (and I've tried with many keywords)
If investigators had a one clue that Jock could be french canadian, wouldn't they have at least reached a french-canadian newspaper (even our biggest english newspaper doesn't mention the case!)

Is Jock a teacher: I have contacted the Education students Association at the University of Montreal, since the admin told me they were responsible for the graduate class pictures on the walls. I was told they, young students, don't know the whereabouts of these old class photos and to try to locate them on the department walls (which I already did , there not there anymore).

Also i saw there were many list ans pictures on internet about the missing people from Argentina, I took a look, looking for combination fitting JPF, but decided not to deviate from the french/can angle.

 

[CarrieMe]

Sorry, but 40 or 60 % is not close.35 and 55 are. Maybe.
Look at the other Does at the DDP spreadsheet or your own matches on Gedmatch before making comparisons.
You're spreading fake indormation!

Whom are you speaking to and what are you referencing?

 

[folieadeuxnola]

Their has been some fabulous discussion on ethnicity charts .. appreciate and have learned a great bit in the past few days. As one poster commented it spiced up the thread with interesting and informative discussions while we wait on further results. To note Ancestry just updated their ethnicity chart in the past couple of days. Seems to be a bit more definitive into specific countries than ethnicity .. fairly interesting.

 

[FrostOwl]

I found this information found at the link interesting. Especially the first comment after the article.

What is the Baltic States Ethnicity on Ancestry DNA ?

Even if the three Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) are treated as one area in the article, there are two different ethnicities there. While Latvia and Lithuania have a Baltic ethnicity, the Estonian ethnicity is Finno-Urgic, and their closest ethnic neighbours are those in Finland, and they are not connected to the Latvians and the Lithuanians, not in language, nor in ethnicity.

 

[Giuc0]

The website is about disappeared, from Chile:
Desaparecidos

To be clear, the page is called "disappeared", which means missing.
A clearer translation by the Collins dictionary: English Translation of “desaparecido” | Collins Portuguese-English Dictionary

So they are actually missing.


Detenidos-desaparecidos, enforced disappeared are a specific category of missing persons.
Source: Forced disappearance - Wikipedia
Detenido desaparecido - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre (Spanish Wikipedia)

So, no sillybilly, they are actually missing. A disappeared in those years is rarely found alive.
Some of them do stand as witnesses during trials, but most of them are still missing nowadays.

More information Forced disappearance - Wikipedia

Of course, these kind of databases are available in Spanish.

 

[wmm85]

DDP just announced that Butler County John Doe was identified. According to his thread, his initial top match on GEDmatch was only 39 cM. About six months later though, a much closer match appeared. So if they are not able to identify our Jock and Jane based on the current matches, hopefully there will be a better match to come. Unfortunately, only a tiny fraction of tests from companies like Ancestry and 23andme have been uploaded to GEDmatch.

 

[Giuc0]

The AFDD, Agrupación de Familiares de Detenidos-Desaparecidos, is the Chilean association for searching disappeared during the Pinochet dictature (1973-1990).

Yes, the listed persons are actually missing AFDD – Agrupación de Familiares de Detenidos Desaparecidos

crimen de lesa humanidad: crime against humanity. As enforced disappearance is considered as a crime against humanity.
Source: OHCHR | International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance

Article 5

The widespread or systematic practice of enforced disappearance constitutes a crime against humanity as defined in applicable international law and shall attract the consequences provided for under such applicable international law.

 

[Warwick1991]

Although the DNA pie charts seem to me to point to North American origins for the Sumter Does, South American countries can’t be eliminated. Although Argentina has many people of Spanish and Italian ancestry, in the late 19th century it was a destination for immigrants from many European countries. It was a place thought to have great opportunities, like the US or Canada. At that time, Argentina got a substantial number of immigrants from the British Isles and Ireland. Immigrants also arrived in Argentina in the late 19th century from Eastern Europe, in addition to Germany.

Due to the variety of backgrounds of immigrants to Argentina, Argentina is still a possibility. The Amerindian ancestry for Jane Doe is more likely to point to North America, IMOP, but we’ll have to wait and see what comes up...

 

[Giuc0]

Chile and Uruguay are also possibilities.

 

[fridaybaker]

DBM

 

[ks-ch]

Okay, I hate to write this, because I simply don't understand the DNA matching and I know it's probably a pain to those who do to stop and explain. However, if anyone can just answer the following question, I would MUCH appreciate it!

I understand that DNA profiles among siblings are often not exactly the same. If that, indeed, is true, I'm left wondering: Is there any possibility still that these two are siblings?

There is no possibility that these two are siblings as their DNA does not match at all. Look, if you happen to have siblings, you would share approximately 50% of your DNA with them; half siblings roughly 25% DNA in common. Jock and Jane are just two different people who happen to look like siblings (which is also subjective, to me they don't look alike). Combinatorics plus DNA can produce almost endless possibilities of how a person can look like.

 

[fridaybaker]

There is no possibility that these two are siblings as their DNA does not match at all. Look, if you happen to have siblings, you would share approximately 50% of your DNA with them; half siblings roughly 25% DNA in common. Jock and Jane are just two different people who happen to look like siblings (which is also subjective, to me they don't look alike). Combinatorics plus DNA can produce almost endless possibilities of how a person can look like.

ks-ch, that you for the kind and patient reply. I just deleted my post, because I'm aware that it's been known now for a while that they weren't siblings. It's been a while since I'd read on the thread and had forgotten that.

 

[branmuffin]

Whom are you speaking to and what are you referencing?

I think it might be a response to some comments that were deleted by a mod.

 

[Chantal]

Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania)

Let me search about proeminent french canadian doctor originating from those three countries, there was a wave of immigration in 1920-30 in Montreal. I will look for JPF.

 

[Giuc0]

Meanwhile, looking at this page: Presentes en Argentina: Muro de la Memoria

They are all missing and they all have a CONADEP number.
For the staff, more info about the CONADEP: National Commission on the Disappearance of Persons - Wikipedia

The website desaparecidos.org can direct to listings by regions, professions... or a memory wall without names.
They include only Argentinian or foreigners disappeared with a Conadep number. The person's page includes also the CI number, which is Cedula de Identidad. It's a very important number because it allows you to find if a decree was found for being a legal inmate (which has often been done as a cover-up for their disappearance), if he went out of the country (to be careful because perpetrators created false ID documents to make believe that the disappeared went out of the country when it's not true)....