True that! And since the KOA is so close to where they were murdered, how long after their second visit to KOA did the killing take place?
Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #7 Pam Buckley & James P Freund
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True that! And since the KOA is so close to where they were murdered, how long after their second visit to KOA did the killing take place?
Me neither. :|
And have we established that KOA didn't register campers at that time (e.g., no sign in, no name, no writing down of car license plates)? These seems a beyond obvious question, so I'm sure it was discussed, but I haven't seen mention of it.
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Now there’s a question I can answer... the KOA lead wasn’t initially looked into in depth, but when it was, the male (David Batson) had died, the KOA closed down, and any records were destroyed in a house fire sometime later. (I can’t remember exactly how long after though).
First time posting so I apologize if someone else has already mentioned this possibility. I’m not sure it’s likely but I’d like to mention so we can rule out if necessary.
Linda Ann Miller missing from San Rafael, CA.
The Doe Network: Linda Ann Miller - 3087DFCA
Her build seems to match, as well as the complexion, but unfortunately there’s not a better picture I’ve been able to find to confirm. It’s interesting that she is Native and would possibly have a link to the jewelry our UID was wearing. The other interesting bit of information is that she was believed to have left to Mexico with a male friend named “Cary Kristal”
View Harold Kristal's Obituary on MarinIJ.com and share memories
Unable to locate a picture for him, but after some digging, found an obituary for Dr Harold Kristal, DDS in Novato, CA only 10 miles from San Rafael. In the obit it mentions that he had a son named Cary who preceded him in death. (I wonder if they had him declared dead if he was missing for years). This would possibly explain the notion that Jock Doe came from a wealthy family, as well as the elaborate dental work.
Can anyone assist me in locating some pictures of Cary Kristal and Linda Miller?
Uggggh I keep checking the Doe project in hopes there will be a breakthrough. Fingers crossed
Linda Ann Miller missing from San Rafael, CA.
The Doe Network: Linda Ann Miller - 3087DFCA
Her build seems to match, as well as the complexion, but unfortunately there’s not a better picture I’ve been able to find to confirm. It’s interesting that she is Native and would possibly have a link to the jewelry our UID was wearing. The other interesting bit of information is that she was believed to have left to Mexico with a male friend named “Cary Kristal”
View Harold Kristal's Obituary on MarinIJ.com and share memories
Unable to locate a picture for him, but after some digging, found an obituary for Dr Harold Kristal, DDS in Novato, CA only 10 miles from San Rafael. In the obit it mentions that he had a son named Cary who preceded him in death. (I wonder if they had him declared dead if he was missing for years). This would possibly explain the notion that Jock Doe came from a wealthy family, as well as the elaborate dental work.
Can anyone assist me in locating some pictures of Cary Kristal and Linda Miller?
Uggggh I keep checking the Doe project in hopes there will be a breakthrough. Fingers crossed
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Does anyone know the status of this couple with the DNA project?Feel like this is the best hope at finding out who they really are. Not one, but two people with identifiable faces, yet unsolved since 1976
According to their FB page, their dna is still at lab for extraction. I’m worried because I just read about changes to GED match following a lawsuit in Utah. The former settings allowed for all submitters to be reviewed when submitting dna. Now, however, when using GED match people are automatically opted out of law enforcement/criminal searches and they have to manually change their settings to opt in, this drastically reducing the sample size. This is discouraging
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carbuff
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Linda's thread: CA - CA - Linda Miller, 19, San Rafael, July 1973. Somebody found a number of yearbook photos of her.
She's been mentioned in earlier threads, and somebody posted a photo of her and a boyfriend. Don't know if it's THE boyfriend though. Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #6
T
Thank you so much for linking me to her story. If that is the pic of Linda Miller, it likely rules her out. This case has baffled me for the longest and I’m willing to look at all possibilities to restore their names.
Thank you so much for linking me to her story. If that is the pic of Linda Miller, it likely rules her out. This case has baffled me for the longest and I’m willing to look at all possibilities to restore their names.
Roselvr
Ask me how to get your loved one in NamUs
Not only that, many people, myself included, have removed our samples due to GEDmatch being sold to a company that has an LE DNA database. We're all worried they would duplicate the database to merge into their existing database
At times I consider all of the eyewitness accounts but at other times I dismiss them.
I have a lot of problems with the campground account and I have a few with the mechanics story too.
The fruit stand account is definitely the one I take most serious. The obvious reasons are the autopsy report and it puts them nearest to the crime scene but also because its the simplest.
The most significant thing I take from this account is, if indeed it was these people, it puts them well off of I95. I don't know what they were doing there but I have ruled out one thing in my mind. I don't think they were just looking for some fruit.
In my opinion this is the ultimate invasion of privacy. We don't give out our SS numbers, we don't give out our PIN to our bank card, we don't even give out our password that we use to log onto this forum. Why would we want people that don't have our permission to have access to our genetic code for reasons we haven't agreed on? People have a right to be concerned.
I'm all for using DNA to help solve these cases but there's a right way to do it and a wrong way.
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I agree. I wonder even about the claim they went to Florida and returned to the KOA. And because they just didn’t like Florida as well as SC? Obviously the story fits because of the shirt he was wearing, but the whole thing doesn’t make a lot of sense. There’s no proof that the shirt came from a Florida race. Almost seems like an after-the-fact, fabricated explanation for an irrelevant detail. Smoke and mirrors. The more I think about it, the more suspicious I am of a lot in this case. (JMO)
I think there may be something to mechanics story. And I’m in agreement about the fruit stand. After seeing the photo in one of the local newspapers there, I got a better picture of what the fruit stand was exactly. They’re a little bit different than I had imagined.
That's exactly the reason I have doubts about the KOA story.
The male had a ring with the first initial J: the witness said his name was Jock.
The male had a book of matches from out west and the female had rings of native make probably from out west: the witness said they were traveling the country.
The male was wearing a Florida shirt: the witness said they had been to Florida.
The male had elaborate dental work leading the authorities to believe he may have been from a wealthy family: the witness said he was the son of a prominent doctor.
Authorities were baffled that no one was coming to claim them: the witness said the male was from Canada and was estranged from his father.
It seems like this witness had an explanation for just about every piece of information that had been released but only after it was known. His story is just a little too perfect for me.
The detective that actually talked to him may have had reason to not take him seriously and that's why it wasn't checked out, although it should have been.
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Precisely @T rex ! This was a pretty unusual case back then but it seems to me that most of the real investigation didn’t take place until years later. But why? Just within the first 200 words of the Wikipedia narrative on this case, I can count at least 6 speculation and assumption based details! Very misleading IMO. Most of which have never been corroborated and may very likely be of no relevance.
1) it was inferred they had apparently been traveling through different places in US before ending up in SC. (Okay? because he had a particular match book and was wearing a shirt with the word Sebring printed on it - many races took place outside of FL during that series)
2) The male victim had been referred to as "Jock" (had he, really?) which may have originated from the French name "Jacques," indication he may have been from French Canada (really? because I took it to mean he was an avid player of sports or an indication that the witness was hard of hearing)
3) the KOA man claimed that he met “Jock”, who had told him he was from Canada and his father was a prominent doctor, which “this supported the theory that his family was wealthy” (it could also support the theory that the KOA man wanted 15 minutes of fame and notoriety in a high profile double murder case OR the theory that John Doe fabricated a story to tell a complete stranger)
4) the Does were said to have been seen by a hermit and said to have been dropped off on Locklair Rd. by someone(s) in a white van (where is this hermit now? what else did he have to say? where’s this mystery van - they took cast impressions of tire tracks found at the scene. Where are the cast impressions?
5) “it is possible that the victims had had their vehicle hijacked, possibly by hitchhikers. Then, upon their exiting the vehicle, someone may have shot them both in the back.” (isn’t it just as possible that they were the hitchhikers? exited their vehicle? well where is it now? and what about the van?....weren’t they also shot in more places than just their backs? why wasn’t it that they had “exited their vehicles and were shot in the chest”?)
6) “At 6:20 a.m., a trucker named Martin Durant found the bodies and contacted Charles Graham, an employee at a nearby store. Graham, in turn, contacted the authorities.” (boy, there sure are a lot of unlucky truckers who just happen to find dead bodies while they’re stopped on random, rural backroads! If he was able to contact a nearby store employee why wasn’t he just as able to call the authorities himself?)
7) “The male victim was at first believed to be between 18 and 22 years of age, but his dentition suggested that he may have been older than 27. The age range was updated to be between 18 and 30 years after his case was entered into NamUs.
The forensic dentist who examined the man's teeth said he believed he was over 27, but that he had looked younger due to his clothing and build.” (So the first estimations were based on a little bit of science and a little bit of his clothing and stature making him appear a certain age?)
8) two people had allegedly spent time with the pair on more than one occasion and a mechanic from out of state may or may not have serviced a vehicle the two were driving (did the KOA witness report seeing a vehicle? how else would they have been able to drive down to FL and return days later? where is this vehicle now? or was it stolen by hitchhikers?)
9) the murder weapon found in possession of a man who admitted to owning the gun and identified where he had gotten it and at least one other person who had owned it (where is said murder weapon now?)
I could go on and on. Now, some of these are rhetorical questions and I know how most of them would or could be answered and explained. This is also just what Wikipedia has and I know how that goes. But, the point I’m trying to make is that the entire story is riddled with assumption. Presumptions that have created a specific narrative and placed a lot of emphasis on certain things that can not be substantiated!
Turning “Jock” into “Jacques” was extremely presumptuous in my opinion. And it was done by investigators, not the public. But, hey, it fit the ring, it fit the prominent Canadian doctor, it had to be true. So let’s all focus our attention on French Canada!
(I’ve come to far to scrap this entire comment because I see now it’s just an obnoxious rant. Rant over. It’s just frustrating to me.)
ETA: JMOOs
1) it was inferred they had apparently been traveling through different places in US before ending up in SC. (Okay? because he had a particular match book and was wearing a shirt with the word Sebring printed on it - many races took place outside of FL during that series)
2) The male victim had been referred to as "Jock" (had he, really?) which may have originated from the French name "Jacques," indication he may have been from French Canada (really? because I took it to mean he was an avid player of sports or an indication that the witness was hard of hearing)
3) the KOA man claimed that he met “Jock”, who had told him he was from Canada and his father was a prominent doctor, which “this supported the theory that his family was wealthy” (it could also support the theory that the KOA man wanted 15 minutes of fame and notoriety in a high profile double murder case OR the theory that John Doe fabricated a story to tell a complete stranger)
4) the Does were said to have been seen by a hermit and said to have been dropped off on Locklair Rd. by someone(s) in a white van (where is this hermit now? what else did he have to say? where’s this mystery van - they took cast impressions of tire tracks found at the scene. Where are the cast impressions?
5) “it is possible that the victims had had their vehicle hijacked, possibly by hitchhikers. Then, upon their exiting the vehicle, someone may have shot them both in the back.” (isn’t it just as possible that they were the hitchhikers? exited their vehicle? well where is it now? and what about the van?....weren’t they also shot in more places than just their backs? why wasn’t it that they had “exited their vehicles and were shot in the chest”?)
6) “At 6:20 a.m., a trucker named Martin Durant found the bodies and contacted Charles Graham, an employee at a nearby store. Graham, in turn, contacted the authorities.” (boy, there sure are a lot of unlucky truckers who just happen to find dead bodies while they’re stopped on random, rural backroads! If he was able to contact a nearby store employee why wasn’t he just as able to call the authorities himself?)
7) “The male victim was at first believed to be between 18 and 22 years of age, but his dentition suggested that he may have been older than 27. The age range was updated to be between 18 and 30 years after his case was entered into NamUs.
The forensic dentist who examined the man's teeth said he believed he was over 27, but that he had looked younger due to his clothing and build.” (So the first estimations were based on a little bit of science and a little bit of his clothing and stature making him appear a certain age?)
8) two people had allegedly spent time with the pair on more than one occasion and a mechanic from out of state may or may not have serviced a vehicle the two were driving (did the KOA witness report seeing a vehicle? how else would they have been able to drive down to FL and return days later? where is this vehicle now? or was it stolen by hitchhikers?)
9) the murder weapon found in possession of a man who admitted to owning the gun and identified where he had gotten it and at least one other person who had owned it (where is said murder weapon now?)
I could go on and on. Now, some of these are rhetorical questions and I know how most of them would or could be answered and explained. This is also just what Wikipedia has and I know how that goes. But, the point I’m trying to make is that the entire story is riddled with assumption. Presumptions that have created a specific narrative and placed a lot of emphasis on certain things that can not be substantiated!
Turning “Jock” into “Jacques” was extremely presumptuous in my opinion. And it was done by investigators, not the public. But, hey, it fit the ring, it fit the prominent Canadian doctor, it had to be true. So let’s all focus our attention on French Canada!
(I’ve come to far to scrap this entire comment because I see now it’s just an obnoxious rant. Rant over. It’s just frustrating to me.
)ETA: JMOOs
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Here’s a missing guy I’d never seen before. I can’t explain anything about this possible match other than they look very similar. And I guess the circumstances could fit...
Robert “Robbie” McDonald
Missing from Honolulu Co., Hawaii - May 1976
- 22 years old, 6’0”, 150 lbs., brown hair & hazel eyes
- per NamUs: Robert McDonald was last seen leaving his residence on May 20, 1976 in his vehicle. McDonald related to his roommate at the time that he was going to visit a friend. Rumors surfaced that McDonald was possibly murdered by two acquaintances over drugs.
Here is his Find A Grave page, has a few more details about him
I found an additional photo of Robert in an Ewa Beach, HI 1970 Campbell HS yearbook (he graduated in 1971 but ‘70 is the only book available on classmates.com) The best photo I was able to locate, is one of him and his prom date. Quite a lovely couple, IMO. His teeth look good, not sure if that’s natural or due to extensive dental work. And the photo showing more of his upper body reminds me a lot of John Doe.
JMO FWIW
Robert “Robbie” McDonald
Missing from Honolulu Co., Hawaii - May 1976
- 22 years old, 6’0”, 150 lbs., brown hair & hazel eyes
- per NamUs: Robert McDonald was last seen leaving his residence on May 20, 1976 in his vehicle. McDonald related to his roommate at the time that he was going to visit a friend. Rumors surfaced that McDonald was possibly murdered by two acquaintances over drugs.
Here is his Find A Grave page, has a few more details about him
I found an additional photo of Robert in an Ewa Beach, HI 1970 Campbell HS yearbook (he graduated in 1971 but ‘70 is the only book available on classmates.com) The best photo I was able to locate, is one of him and his prom date. Quite a lovely couple, IMO. His teeth look good, not sure if that’s natural or due to extensive dental work. And the photo showing more of his upper body reminds me a lot of John Doe.
JMO FWIW
carbuff
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Although if they were bumming around the country, as was common at the time, they might have just stopped for a meal or a snack or a look around, or maybe for the night.
The fruit stand story is also what makes me wonder whether they were not traveling together--Jock was traveling, stopped for the evening, went out for ice cream, met a girl and started flirting, attracting the attention of her jealous boyfriend.
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carbuff
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I have seen it said--somewhere else in this forum, because I haven't read about them anywhere else--that the KOA campground dude is related to or connected to the guy who owned the gun.
Because in 1976 he's very unlikely to have had a portable phone and probably didn't even have a CB radio. Most likely "contacted" means he went to the nearest place he'd seen that might have a phone and asked the employee to call the police using the store phone.
And yes, there are a lot of truckers who find bodies--I suspect that the same things that catch the attention of someone looking to dispose of a body, like a place to pull off the highway, also attracts the attention of a trucker looking to pull off to check their load or take a leak. And then they find themselves looking down at roadside remains. (Other big categories of remains-finders are hunters, mushroom gatherers, and fisherfolk. All people who have reason to be in out of the way places, looking closely at the ground.)
The main thing this story tells me is that all the talk about how remote the location is...maybe isn't quite as true as looking at the map and photos would suggest.
Because in 1976 he's very unlikely to have had a portable phone and probably didn't even have a CB radio. Most likely "contacted" means he went to the nearest place he'd seen that might have a phone and asked the employee to call the police using the store phone.
And yes, there are a lot of truckers who find bodies--I suspect that the same things that catch the attention of someone looking to dispose of a body, like a place to pull off the highway, also attracts the attention of a trucker looking to pull off to check their load or take a leak. And then they find themselves looking down at roadside remains. (Other big categories of remains-finders are hunters, mushroom gatherers, and fisherfolk. All people who have reason to be in out of the way places, looking closely at the ground.)
The main thing this story tells me is that all the talk about how remote the location is...maybe isn't quite as true as looking at the map and photos would suggest.
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I know someone posted photos and videos of the actual location (TBH, it gave me an uneasy feeling and I couldn’t look at it all, lol...but it seemed helpful). There are just too many “key players” within the main narrative that I find suspicious. Main witness, owner of the murder weapon. That’s all I can think of but those are the two most important people. Ones story is just that, a story. Ones lack of accountability is almost frightening. And they’re acquainted with one another?
I’m beating a dead horse really, but we’ve got to be missing something, otherwise this would be closer to being solved than it was in 1976 - and it’s not. IMO
I’m beating a dead horse really, but we’ve got to be missing something, otherwise this would be closer to being solved than it was in 1976 - and it’s not. IMO
Daphne1972
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Where did this KOA info come from? I only knew about the mechanic and the store guy.
As to Robbie McDonald, let me take a good look. But interesting, never seen this man amongst the many missing people I have looked at.
Ps
Robbie first had a weak chin and later a granite one with a cleft. Implant??
As to Robbie McDonald, let me take a good look. But interesting, never seen this man amongst the many missing people I have looked at.
Ps
Robbie first had a weak chin and later a granite one with a cleft. Implant??
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