Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - Pamela Buckley & James Freund #10

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could it have been a case of mistaken identity? the reason for their murder.


Reason I say that is...at the time..the going theory was he's the son of a dentist. What if somebody thought that at the time....and killed them Maybe they didnt have ID on them before they died...unlikely..but..who knows?

I had a person on Reddit give me a rundown on what he said were things relayed to him by law enforcement...but..the story goes with the canadian dentist's son myth. I mean..this guy gave me names...dates..who shot them.. who else was involved. Now..the reddit guy could just have a HUGE overactive imagination..OR..the killer(s)..and the police..both thought the guy was canadian..and thats why they died..wrong place...wrong time. It ties very much into local biker gangs in South Carolina...and also ties into operation rough rider.
 
southerngospel said:
could it have been a case of mistaken identity? the reason for their murder.


Reason I say that is...at the time..the going theory was he's the son of a dentist. What if somebody thought that at the time....and killed them Maybe they didnt have ID on them before they died...unlikely..but..who knows?

I had a person on Reddit give me a rundown on what he said were things relayed to him by law enforcement...but..the story goes with the canadian dentist's son myth. I mean..this guy gave me names...dates..who shot them.. who else was involved. Now..the reddit guy could just have a HUGE overactive imagination..OR..the killer(s)..and the police..both thought the guy was canadian..and thats why they died..wrong place...wrong time. It ties very much into local biker gangs in South Carolina...and also ties into operation rough rider.
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Intriguing!, would you be happy to share?
 
southerngospel said:
could it have been a case of mistaken identity? the reason for their murder.


Reason I say that is...at the time..the going theory was he's the son of a dentist. What if somebody thought that at the time....and killed them Maybe they didnt have ID on them before they died...unlikely..but..who knows?

I had a person on Reddit give me a rundown on what he said were things relayed to him by law enforcement...but..the story goes with the canadian dentist's son myth. I mean..this guy gave me names...dates..who shot them.. who else was involved. Now..the reddit guy could just have a HUGE overactive imagination..OR..the killer(s)..and the police..both thought the guy was canadian..and thats why they died..wrong place...wrong time. It ties very much into local biker gangs in South Carolina...and also ties into operation rough rider.
Click to expand...

As it turned out, Jim's father was a car salesman who passed away in 1966, when Jim was in the Army, stationed in Germany. Prior to that, IIRC, he had a sign-making business. No family connections to anyone in dentistry. Also can't think of any reason why someone would want to kill someone for being a dentist or related to one.
 
branmuffin said:
If LE traced the gun back to Lonnie's brother after it was stolen and recovered, to me it shows he was the registered owner of the weapon. At least that's the way I look at it. I'm sure gun ownership in the US isn't very stringent in terms of its provenance.

Someone upthread mentioned that perhaps Lonnie's brother knew the weapon had been used in a felony and asked him to get rid of it but he either ignored those instructions or forgot about it. So the question for me is who was lying about the weapon? I have a sneaking suspicion it wasn't Lonnie but his brother. Which is why LGH's lie detector test was all over the map. Do we have any idea what his brother did for a living?
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It sounds to me as if the gun was never restored to its original owners. None of the Henry brothers would be legal owners of the revolver; a previous post (#978 in “Identified” thread #9 by MadMcGoo) found that Lonnie was eventually prosecuted in Federal court for possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number. As far as a theft charge goes, perhaps the Federal charge was more easily prosecuted because of the difficulty proving the circumstances of the theft. Perhaps the Federal charge offered more potential leverage for persuading Lonnie to reveal more details.

In US gun sales, the names of the dealer and the buyer are usually recorded on BATF form 4475, so the last legitimate owner would likely be on that form. Those forms are the method used to trace firearms used in crimes from the manufacturer onward. This can be a dead end for stolen guns - thieves aren’t a part of the sales process. In many states, there’s no registration of owners; the 4475 is the only record. Some states also have additional forms for firearms transfers/sales.

The Henry brothers are the key to this crime, and always have been. They must have known who had the gun during the period the murders took place. It was either someone in their family or in their circle of acquaintances.
 
Warwick1991 said:
It sounds to me as if the gun was never restored to its original owners. None of the Henry brothers would be legal owners of the revolver; a previous post (#978 in “Identified” thread #9 by MadMcGoo) found that Lonnie was eventually prosecuted in Federal court for possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number. As far as a theft charge goes, perhaps the Federal charge was more easily prosecuted because of the difficulty proving the circumstances of the theft. Perhaps the Federal charge offered more potential leverage for persuading Lonnie to reveal more details.

In US gun sales, the names of the dealer and the buyer are usually recorded on BATF form 4475, so the last legitimate owner would likely be on that form. Those forms are the method used to trace firearms used in crimes from the manufacturer onward. This can be a dead end for stolen guns - thieves aren’t a part of the sales process. In many states, there’s no registration of owners; the 4475 is the only record. Some states also have additional forms for firearms transfers/sales.

The Henry brothers are the key to this crime, and always have been. They must have known who had the gun during the period the murders took place. It was either someone in their family or in their circle of acquaintances.
Click to expand...

Correction - the BATF form is the 4473.
 
Warwick1991 said:
It sounds to me as if the gun was never restored to its original owners. None of the Henry brothers would be legal owners of the revolver; a previous post (#978 in “Identified” thread #9 by MadMcGoo) found that Lonnie was eventually prosecuted in Federal court for possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number. As far as a theft charge goes, perhaps the Federal charge was more easily prosecuted because of the difficulty proving the circumstances of the theft. Perhaps the Federal charge offered more potential leverage for persuading Lonnie to reveal more details.

In US gun sales, the names of the dealer and the buyer are usually recorded on BATF form 4475, so the last legitimate owner would likely be on that form. Those forms are the method used to trace firearms used in crimes from the manufacturer onward. This can be a dead end for stolen guns - thieves aren’t a part of the sales process. In many states, there’s no registration of owners; the 4475 is the only record. Some states also have additional forms for firearms transfers/sales.

The Henry brothers are the key to this crime, and always have been. They must have known who had the gun during the period the murders took place. It was either someone in their family or in their circle of acquaintances.
Click to expand...
BINGO!!!! I have said this for decades!!! WHY oh WHY did SC SLED and even local LE not pursue this?? I am from SC, and I live in SC... I WANT THE CRIMINALS to be named and identified!!! If you guys have any evidence I can take to current LE that isn't part of what I have already researched for the last 13 years let me know, and I will show up at their door in person. I WANT THIS SOLVED!!!! I WANT JUSTICE!!!!
 
This seems promising. I knew they mentioned “suspects”, but this is a little more specific. I’m hopeful they’ll get more answers following their identifications.

https://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article248671040.html

“We also plan to reopen the investigation and follow up with a person of interest.”

Colorado Springs woman among bodies found shot to death in S.C. identified after 44 years

“The sheriff said his investigators have always had a person of interest or two in the killings and they plan to reopen the case and press hard for an arrest.”
 
Does anyone know where the deceased couple were going ?
To visit friends ?
Iirc they weren't local and a possible clue was that they seemed to meet their demise close to a road --as if they were driven to that location.
Hoping for answers and justice soon !
 
southerngospel said:
It had to do with running cocaine over the border from canada. Medical grade cocaine that could be obtained for medical purposes. According to the anonymous reddit user....they burned a biker gang on a cocaine deal. Lonnie and his brother were the shooters. The reason they got off was the gun was passed around like a hot potato. I suppose there is a remote chance there may be some truth in the middle. The canada stuff is obviously bogus...this person said they were getting an inside scoop from investigators from the original case. The cops could have gotten parts of it wrong...OR the guy could be an amateur writer of crime stories. Like i said...a lot of specifics.
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That's interesting, but I'm dubious. Why would a biker gang need to bring in outsiders (Henry brothers) to do the shooting?
 
southerngospel said:
It had to do with running cocaine over the border from canada. Medical grade cocaine that could be obtained for medical purposes. According to the anonymous reddit user....they burned a biker gang on a cocaine deal. Lonnie and his brother were the shooters. The reason they got off was the gun was passed around like a hot potato. I suppose there is a remote chance there may be some truth in the middle. The canada stuff is obviously bogus...this person said they were getting an inside scoop from investigators from the original case. The cops could have gotten parts of it wrong...OR the guy could be an amateur writer of crime stories. Like i said...a lot of specifics.
Click to expand...

This scenario does not sound credible to me. It seems like our victims were travelers, and were probably carjacked. Associating them with cocaine smuggling would mean that they returned to the Sumter county area several times. This is very unlikely. There is no verified sighting of them in the area before the time frame of the murders. The lone sighting at the fruit stand on the day before the murders is a possibility, and the campground now appears to be either mistaken identity or a deliberate fiction. There is nothing in the lives of the victims that points to the high risk and illegal lifestyle of drug smuggling.
 
shellbee said:
That's interesting, but I'm dubious. Why would a biker gang need to bring in outsiders (Henry brothers) to do the shooting?
Click to expand...

I'm a little dubious on the biker gang theory, too. Not saying they weren't there in the NC/SC area, but that the victims would have been involved with them.

Neither Jim or Pam seemed to be people leading high risk lifestyles. If Jim was still living in Lancaster, PA before he went missing, it's a low key place without much crime, far from large cities.

Lancaster, Pennsylvania - Wikipedia

Lancaster, PA Dutch Country: Attractions, Amish, Events (2021) | Lancaster County's Best!

Same for Pam living in Colorado Springs, CO. ICBW, but neither seemed to be living a high risk lifestyle.

Neither of them had prior records of criminal activity or arrests. Jim's only problems related to child support and, in his teens and early 20's, traffic tickets.

JMO, it's a real mystery how they met each other and ended up murdered.
 
Warwick1991 said:
This scenario does not sound credible to me. It seems like our victims were travelers, and were probably carjacked. Associating them with cocaine smuggling would mean that they returned to the Sumter county area several times. This is very unlikely. There is no verified sighting of them in the area before the time frame of the murders. The lone sighting at the fruit stand on the day before the murders is a possibility, and the campground now appears to be either mistaken identity or a deliberate fiction. There is nothing in the lives of the victims that points to the high risk and illegal lifestyle of drug smuggling.
Click to expand...

Agree, good points. There was also no sign of drugs either in their systems or on their bodies. Not even alcohol.
 
Warwick1991 said:
This scenario does not sound credible to me. It seems like our victims were travelers, and were probably carjacked. Associating them with cocaine smuggling would mean that they returned to the Sumter county area several times. This is very unlikely. There is no verified sighting of them in the area before the time frame of the murders. The lone sighting at the fruit stand on the day before the murders is a possibility, and the campground now appears to be either mistaken identity or a deliberate fiction. There is nothing in the lives of the victims that points to the high risk and illegal lifestyle of drug smuggling.
Click to expand...

Just playing devil's advocate; why would the running of drugs necessitate returning to the Sumter area? If they were running drugs up and down the east coast, IMO, it's more likely they passed Sumter without stopping as they made their way to and from their actual destination.

I agree they don't send up red flags pointing to a high risk lifestyle. The fact that their autopsies were free of drugs and alcohol seems noteworthy. However, I don't think anyone should discount the drug angle, especially considering the IMSA drug history.

I think it's possible they were random victims of a car jacking, but the one thing that makes me second guess this is if it was someone who just wanted their vehicle then why not just kick them out of the car and drive away? There are always exceptions of course, but in general thieves don't usually kill people. Driving off the beaten path, kicking them out of the car, firing six shots into them, and speeding away could attract the attention of extra eye and ear witnesses. Why take that risk? Additionally, and I've said this in a previous post, I really feel that the killer was comfortable killing people. He didn't appear to hesitate. If he had, I think James and Pam would have tried to run.This makes me think whomever did this was a violent killer rather than a thief.
 
Agree. Also, we don’t know what kind of personal possessions they had since they were dumped without them. It’s possible they had a sum of cash they used for traveling. The killer could’ve had his eye on that.

back in the 70s it was a popular thing to want to go live on the road for a year or so. We don’t know anything about Pam and James. How they met, why they were traveling, etc. it’s possible they met in CO, became friends, decided to save up some money and take this road trip. If so, they would’ve possibly had cash on them.

some thieves, especially if they are addicts, have little regard for human life and would’ve thought nothing of taking their lives and robbing them.
 
shellbee said:
Just playing devil's advocate; why would the running of drugs necessitate returning to the Sumter area? If they were running drugs up and down the east coast, IMO, it's more likely they passed Sumter without stopping as they made their way to and from their actual destination.

I agree they don't send up red flags pointing to a high risk lifestyle. The fact that their autopsies were free of drugs and alcohol seems noteworthy. However, I don't think anyone should discount the drug angle, especially considering the IMSA drug history.

I think it's possible they were random victims of a car jacking, but the one thing that makes me second guess this is if it was someone who just wanted their vehicle then why not just kick them out of the car and drive away? There are always exceptions of course, but in general thieves don't usually kill people. Driving off the beaten path, kicking them out of the car, firing six shots into them, and speeding away could attract the attention of extra eye and ear witnesses. Why take that risk? Additionally, and I've said this in a previous post, I really feel that the killer was comfortable killing people. He didn't appear to hesitate. If he had, I think James and Pam would have tried to run.This makes me think whomever did this was a violent killer rather than a thief.
Click to expand...

There are many carjackings that involve murdering the car owner. The exception might be a thief just interested in a joyride, but many have enormous violence. There was a recent case here on WS where a man was killed in a situation where he was selling a vehicle. There are other fatal carjackings on WS. I can think of 3 carjacking crimes in New England that involved murder. In one case, a group of carjackers carjacked a young couple as they left a nightclub, and killed them both execution style on a golf course several miles away. Their bloody bodies were discovered the next day. There was no special motive revealed when the killers were caught. In another, a carjacker killed a few people as he went on a carjacking and killing wave in at least 2 states. In yet another, a man and his vehicle disappeared, and neither were found. Police were certain he’d been carjacked for his Land Rover. Whether a carjacking becomes violent seems to depend on motives, impulse and planning.

If James had a nice vehicle that a thief wanted to keep, murder could be a part of the plan.

An additional explanation for murder is that Pam and James were easily disposed of as outsiders in an insular place. They might have attracted attention of the wrong kind, and died as a result.

A lot of scenarios are possible here, but how would anyone in the Sumter county area know about a drug runner going up and down I-95 unless their dealings involved that locale?
 
To be honest, I have no clue/knowledge about weapons at all, so I did try to search more info, about the gun that was used to murder James and Pam
(at this point, have given up, - to digg around if there is any MSM, clippings about the stolen weapons in Durham, I think there is non)

I wondered, wich guns were used by LE, given the fact of discussions in previous threads (crime scene :desert, dirt road, dark, execution style)

It seems that the 357. Magnum was used a lot by LE, so it could be stolen from a police officer? And the robbery was never published publicly?
Legacy: When Cops Carried Revolvers - American Cop

Also found this in Dutch:
"De .357 Magnum is wellicht het populairste magnumkaliber bij overheidsdiensten en sportschutters."
The .357 Magnum is perhaps the most popular magnum caliber among government agencies and sport shooters"
.357 Magnum - Wikipedia
So the original owner, who was a member from a shootingclub?
It wouldn't be the first time, there would be knowledge that a member of a shootingclub had weapons in the house, club or whatever..
^MOO^

Qoute :
"Combining old fashioned investigative work with non-public information , I developed a lead that is potentially explosive and could turn this case on its head. I have turned over this lead along with my other research to the Sumter SD."
https://sumtermysterycouple.com/
 
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