Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - Pamela Buckley & James Freund #9

[worm]

The reason for my above opinion is that, having worked around local SC LE, is that I think this community was probably offended. Angry that someone would do this and stain the place with the stigma of such a crime. I live near the Susan Smith area and can say, without a doubt, that the people are very offended about that crime.

 

[Andreee]

In regards to Sunlending: one member Anthony Matthews passed away in a hang gliding accident in August 1975. At some point, Mary MacGregor (of “Torn Between Two Lovers” fame) became the lead singer. It doesn’t seem like Pamela was involved with the group after she got married in 1972. It seems that the only constant band member was a guy named John Daly (who still appears to be alive).

I wonder if Pamela and Mary MacGregor knew each other.

I thought earlier in this thread that it was determined that it was a different group with similar name that Mary MacGregor was in, hence some confusion.

 

[killarney rose]

Mary MacGregor’s Colorado Connection

This might explain the Mary MacGregor/Sunlending connection.

 

[otto]

I see it a little different but agree some. According to reports, the sheriff and investigators worked pretty steady, the late coroner as well. The former sheriff’s daughter says that this case stuck on him until his own death. They brought in dental experts who can’t be blamed for someone not printing a negative properly. The gun issue really bothers me and cops should have been sleeping under the beds of anyone with a connection to that weapon.

The gun was the clue and the answer, but it was not pursued beyond investigating the brother. It's unfortunate.

 

[Canaille]

Is there any reason to believe that the guy James supposedly played pool with would not have been involved? For some reason, I'm suspicious of him... I don't know why, maybe I just haven't read enough.

But, if I recall correctly, it was claimed that James and Pam had stopped at the KOA on their way to Florida. Again, if I recall correctly, supposedly James was asked how they liked Florida and he supposedly said he liked the Sumter area better.

So, here's a few of my thoughts... If they stopped at the KOA on their trip to Florida, this might have given someone an opportunity to expect them back on their return trip. Meaning, if they appeared to have lots of cash, or if he played pool for money and lost and couldn't pay up, then the return trip gave someone the opportunity to get back at him.

Also, it bothers me that they had no ID on them when found... AND when Verna went to do some of her own investigation, the KOA records had been destroyed in a house fire. Just too coincidental for me.

 

[worm]

In one news account, it says the KOA guy claimed to be “friends” with the couple but hardly mentions Pamela. It would seem likely that since this mans wife worked at KOA, she would have met these friends. I just don’t take stock in this story. Maybe the camp man seen and met a young couple, maybe even talked with them. But I don’t think it was this couple. He couldn’t be positive about anything like the ring or the people anyway.

 

[Andreee]

In regards to Sunlending: one member Anthony Matthews passed away in a hang gliding accident in August 1975. At some point, Mary MacGregor (of “Torn Between Two Lovers” fame) became the lead singer. It doesn’t seem like Pamela was involved with the group after she got married in 1972. It seems that the only constant band member was a guy named John Daly (who still appears to be alive).

I wonder if Pamela and Mary MacGregor knew each other.

I thought earlier in this thread that it was determined that it was a different group with similar name that Mary MacGregor was in, hence some confusion.

In one news account, it says the KOA guy claimed to be “friends” with the couple but hardly mentions Pamela. It would seem likely that since this mans wife worked at KOA, she would have met these friends. I just don’t take stock in this story. Maybe the camp man seen and met a young couple, maybe even talked with them. But I don’t think it was this couple. He couldn’t be positive about anything like the ring or the people anyway.

I wonder if this KOA couple is still alive, and if so, what they think about this latest development; and the other 'witnesses' who supposedly met the couple. /It sure would be interesting to find out! I've found over the years of following cases where there are witnesses, just how often they can be so wrong about id's and descriptions; and that different witnesses can have such varying memories of events/people.

 

[worm]

@Andreee , I read earlier that the KOA man and the investigator who interviewed him have both passed away. I haven’t seen anything regarding his wife, and don’t know if LE ever spoke with her at all.

 

[Canaille]

In one news account, it says the KOA guy claimed to be “friends” with the couple but hardly mentions Pamela. It would seem likely that since this mans wife worked at KOA, she would have met these friends. I just don’t take stock in this story. Maybe the camp man seen and met a young couple, maybe even talked with them. But I don’t think it was this couple. He couldn’t be positive about anything like the ring or the people anyway.

But, I think he did say that James tried to pawn the ring to him.

 

[otto]

Is there any reason to believe that the guy James supposedly played pool with would not have been involved? For some reason, I'm suspicious of him... I don't know why, maybe I just haven't read enough.

But, if I recall correctly, it was claimed that James and Pam had stopped at the KOA on their way to Florida. Again, if I recall correctly, supposedly James was asked how they liked Florida and he supposedly said he liked the Sumter area better.

So, here's a few of my thoughts... If they stopped at the KOA on their trip to Florida, this might have given someone an opportunity to expect them back on their return trip. Meaning, if they appeared to have lots of cash, or if he played pool for money and lost and couldn't pay up, then the return trip gave someone the opportunity to get back at him.

Also, it bothers me that they had no ID on them when found... AND when Verna went to do some of her own investigation, the KOA records had been destroyed in a house fire. Just too coincidental for me.

Someone named Jock was at the campground playing pool with an employee's husband A year later, that KOA employee came forward and claimed that the victim was Jock. Even though it was later claimed that the campground had complete records of all guests, records for Jock were not provided to investigators at the time of the report. When investigators did ask for records, they were told the records were destroyed in a house fire.

The person at the campground has the wrong name, so it must be a different person.

 

[otto]

But, I think he did say that James tried to pawn the ring to him.

Jock, the Canadian teacher whose father is a doctor, is a different person.

 

[Andreee]

@Andreee , I read earlier that the KOA man and the investigator who interviewed him have both passed away. I haven’t seen anything regarding his wife, and don’t know if LE ever spoke with her at all.

Yes, I thought the KOA man did but wasn't sure. And I don't know re. the wife, but I would expect that to be a lost cause to find/talk to her if she still is alive, considering so much time has gone by.

 

[worm]

But, I think he did say that James tried to pawn the ring to him.

He couldn’t be positive, he said it was similar. The KOA mans wife was an employee at the camp, I don’t think he did.

I’ve been thinking earlier about how the sheriff, coroner, etc kept emphasizing how clean they were, recently showered. I can only assume that they had to shower somewhere in or near Sumter on Sunday if they (LE) could be so sure of this. I guess they could detect soap somehow? Fresh clothes? Another of the many questions I could ask.

 

[Fukiyama]

Let's say everything KOA guy told LE is absolutely correct.

James was traveling with a woman who /may have been/ Pam. They went to Florida and then came back.

This doesn't help us solve the murders. Maybe we should just move on?

 

[Andreee]

Jock, the Canadian teacher whose father is a doctor, is a different person.

View attachment 281594[/QUOTE

Jock, the Canadian teacher whose father is a doctor, is a different person.

View attachment 281594

Yes! This whole KOA thing was a red herring! As a Canadian myself, I looked extensively at our missing persons, doctor, obits, as far as I could, etc etc and although there were several possibles re. the doctor/disowned son 'storyline' and even a few initials that matched the ring's JPF scenario there was nothing conclusive at all. Then of course that investigator looked into it all and even called one prospective doctor to ask if he had a son, and was given the answer 'no.' So IMO that was fully discounted. Almost wish that KOA mgr. hadn't come forward

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I wish Daly, or anybody who knew these people, would come forward and tell us who they were. Personality wise.

Exactly. It's difficult to tell how to proceed here. I don't think family members should be contacted. But someone like Daly seemingly would be valuable, toward his memories of Pamela in the '70s and if he ever wondered what happened to her. For all we know, he assumed she was still married in Colorado.

John Daly doesn't seem to have a social media presence. Not an obvious one, anyway. Of course, search results are cluttered and mostly meaningless due to the famous golfer with the same name, especially since he has tinkered with guitar in between his well known issues.

Best of all would be if one of the major true crime programs did an hour episode on this case. There certainly would be enough interest. A Reddit poster said the the DNA Doe Project website was not functional for quite a while because it couldn't handle the traffic generated when this case was solved. If this were a Parabon case then no doubt CeCe Moore would do an episode, if Genetic Detective is renewed. Since DNA Doe Project doesn't have that type of connection it is essentially a free agent case and needs somebody like Paula Zahn to pick it up. That's just one name out of the bunch. She interviews family members and they seem comfortable with her.

 

[otto]

Yes! This whole KOA thing was a red herring! As a Canadian myself, I looked extensively at our missing persons, doctor, obits, as far as I could, etc etc and although there were several possibles re. the doctor/disowned son 'storyline' and even a few initials that matched the ring's JPF scenario there was nothing conclusive at all. Then of course that investigator looked into it all and even called one prospective doctor to ask if he had a son, and was given the answer 'no.' So IMO that was fully discounted. Almost wish that KOA mgr. hadn't come forward

I agree. It was one statement that probably compromised the investigation. In some ways, it handed off identification of the victims to Canada.

I'm curious whether there was any connection between the man with the gun, his brother and the husband of the KOA employee. The gun was discovered 4 months after the murders. That put the focus on the gun owner and his family. The KOA employee came forward a year after the murders and very likely shifted the focus from local victims to foreign victims, which was not helpful.

 

[worm]

@Awsi Dooger , I was just talking about a natl crime show interest In this. That would probably open some doors on evidence about who done this. Do we know anything about those tire impressions they took?

 

[Awsi Dooger]

A glaring trend with these older unsolved cases -- and even newer cases -- is that there was little if any media involvement. That reversal alone would surge countless cases to the forefront, enabling sleuthers to find the old articles and videos, identify the name, and make the connection. Instead the family members somehow have more trust in their local sheriff than the local paper or news anchor, so they trudge into the police station and share their story, where it becomes filed away...never to be seen again.

There was plenty available to solve this case. Heck, we had not 2 but all three initials...JPF. Imagine if Freund's family had gone to the Pennsylvania media and publicized his absence including the full name and detail that he had a ring with those initials. Apparently nothing like that happened. They waited for the required number of years to pass and then fulfilled the legal requirements to declare him dead. Pamela's family had someone who was within a specialized field. Heck, that one promotional photo would have generated interest. We may not be hearing quickly from family members and friends 45 years later but just think of media in the late '70s and early '80s saying the Buckley family is looking for a missing member of Sunlending. One fan after another from those performances would recognize who it was and spread the word. Not impossible that Pam is identified long before that Unsolved Mysteries episode in 1995.

Admittedly this baffles the heck out of me because I have a journalism degree. That profession is loaded with terrific people. It is disgraceful how conventional wisdom has so incompetently veered the other way, toward distrust and ridicule. Be ignorant somewhere else. I understand some people are not comfortable on camera or even providing interview for print. But the media is aware of that. It is the reason they often do the interview in the person's own home, with everyone there. Comfort in numbers and familiarity. The benefits are potentially enormous and overwhelm the brief awkward tension.

Think of that Cleveland case. Two of the three missing girls had become media cases. Therefore the responding officers were well aware of the names in real time as everything unfolded that afternoon. The other girl became, "Who is that?" solely because Michele Knight's family took the paperwork route and not the high profile media path. Granted, Michele was an adult while the others were not.

Eventually even with an adult you know darn well something's wrong if there's no word from them. The families of a missing person who merely speak to law enforcement will continue to lessen expectancy level compared to families who push one media outlet after another. There should be a kit of recommendations. DNA Doe Project and similar firms cannot be one dimensional. They need to take steps to advise as well as solve. Family members should contact law enforcement and media, along with forging their own presence online. The missing persons databases need to be combined and refined. Every time I look at Namus I think that's great but this should be the junior varsity version. It looks like 1996 caliber. Pamela unquestionably would have been proposed as Sumter Jane Doe if suitable photos filled that page on debut in 2019.

 

[Canaille]

Someone named Jock was at the campground playing pool with an employee's husband A year later, that KOA employee came forward and claimed that the victim was Jock. Even though it was later claimed that the campground had complete records of all guests, records for Jock were not provided to investigators at the time of the report. When investigators did ask for records, they were told the records were destroyed in a house fire.

The person at the campground has the wrong name, so it must be a different person.

now, are you saying this seriously or facetiously?