Nancy Garrido - thread #2

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There is an witness to the abduction, which you conveniently forget. Who saw a man and a woman in the car, and gave a description of the woman who abducted the child. 18 years later that child found in the company of Garrido, and the jury should be able compare the composite to the photo of Garrido's wife Nancy.
I presume the jury should be able to add two and two together.

I know there was a witness. But that was 18 years ago, and memories fade. It was also witnessed at distance and for a very brief moment. The witness has also been exposed to recent photographs of Nancy, which means that any testimony to the identity is tainted would be unreliable in isolation. The victim may have been found in their company 18 years later, but you would still need to make the connection between then and now. The defence could argue that the similarity is coincidental, and what would be your argument against that be? You would have none. The strongest way to make that connection is if Jaycee, Nancy or PG testifies to that fact. The other way would be if there was some physical evidence, tire tracks, parts of the car, parts of clothing, something like that which could be tied forensically to the Garridos, but as far as we know there is nothing like that. If I was a juror sitting on this case I would insist that that connection be made, since the means for making it is available. I would want to hear Jaycee, or Nancy, or PG say in court what happened that day. One of them. Anyone of them. If they did not I would feel obliged to aquit on that charge for lack of evidence, and I would not feel any remorse about doing that even though I think they are guilty, because all it would take to make that connection is for someone simply to talk.

That leaves the option of testimony. PG isnt going to testify against himself, particularly since there is nothing directly implicating him in the kidnaping other than what either Jaycee or Nancy might say. We would hope that Jaycee would testify, and her lawyer seems to think she will, but the NE article suggests that it may not be so certain after all. From the prosecutors point of view what do they do then to avoid the risk that she may not play? They could use hearsay from people she may have talked to in the interim (if that would be admissable when the victim is available to testify directly). The backup option is to turn one of the accused, with Nancy being the obvious candidate. She would certainly have motivation since she is the one most vulnerable. We have heard from various sources that she is cooperating with LE. Usually that means some sort of arrangement has been reached between the prosecutor and the defence, either in the form of reduced charges or a lighter sentence. Now, it may be possible that Nancy is unilaterally doing this in a hope for mercy from the judge in sentencing but I think that is less likely.

You need to stop being so emotional about this and look at it objectively. Consider how a case might be constructed in the most solid fashion possible. What could go wrong, what counter agruments could be offered up and how would those be addressed. Keep in mind that the onus is on the prosecutor to prove beyond reasonable doubt the facts of the case. Just saying it is so won't cut it.
 
Similarity is coincidental? And the fact that the kidnapped child is found with Garridos is what? Also coincidental? And the two children that JC has are what? Also coincidental? I would like to see defense lawyer try that argument in front of the jury. How do you not consider JC herself as "physical evidence?" Why would "part of clothing" be more convincing than the kidnapped child herself is beyond my understanding.
 
That won't prove anything though. It was 18 years ago, seen for a few seconds at what was probably a fair distance. Any decent defence lawyer would rip that apart if there was nothing else. At best it would act as a support to corroborate testimony by either Jaycee or Nancy (if she turns state witness).
Fair distance? :waitasec:IIRC I think Carl said it happened about 150-200 yards away from him. He didn't have his car keys handy, so he attempted to chase them on his mountain bike. Carl gave an extremely accurate composite description of Nancy. The resemblance is spooky!
I'm sure there are police reports taken at the time of Jaycee's abduction which back up Carl's statement and description.
 
I'm afraid I have to agree with Natal. Jaycee's testimony is essential for the case. Carl can testify to what he saw, and describe who he saw. But he didn't know a name, and memories fade and details change over time. And a lot of time has gone by. So under defense questioning, his testimony would be shaky. And a case cannot be won by only one witness, if there is no forensic evidence to back up their testimony.

Besides if this went to court without the victim, no jury is going to convict. They want to see a victim. Either a living victim or a dead one, but they want to see that there was a victim. If they hear there is a living victim and don't see her testifying, they are going to wonder why. It could put doubts in their mind that maybe the victim doesn't want the legal charges, or even that perhaps all is not kosher with the case.

I think that Jaycee will testify. But it won't be easy for her. First she did develop a bond with the G.'s. But second and most important, is her daughters. PG is the kid's father and they allegedly loved him. So if she testifies she will have to be able to look her daughters in the eye and tell them she testified and helped put their father in prison. Not an easy thing to do without destroying the children and her relationship with them.
But if she doesn't testify, then PG may not go to prison. Then there is a custody battle, because if he isn't convicted he is an innocent man, and he is the father, then he has a right to the kids. So I don't see that she has any choice but to testify.

Jaycee can put a name to the people who stole her, she can put the name with the current face. She can testify what people held her during the time she was missing. She is the only one who can testify that it was forcible nonconsenual rape, not statutory (consenual) rape. She can testify as to how she was kept and what kept her from leaving. All those things are going to be necessay for the case.


Without her testimony the defense is free to say that Jaycee ran away from home by persuading the G's to help her, ended up in the G's home, did not wish to leave, seduced PG and had his children. Without her testimony, who is to dispute it? Yes, he might still be charged with kidnapping but it will be the slap on the wrist kind. And believe me they will come up with a reason that Jaycee wanted to leave her home, most likely that she was being abused in her home.
 
How is defense going to persuade anyone JC run away from home? Her step-father witnessed the abduction.
Memory might fade, but there is a 911 call of him reporting the abduction, him saying a woman and a man kidnapped JC, and him giving the description of the woman that led to the composite sketch.
Who is going to believe she run away from home under these circumstances? As for the jury wanting to see a victim-the DA can put experts on the stand explaining about brainwashing, Stockholm syndrome and the such.
In a case of the "girl in the box" DA did exactly that-put experts on the stand to explain why she didn't report it, even after she left.
 
The defense doesn't have to prove anything. They can just present this as a possibility to provide reasonable doubt. And yes, if Jaycee persuaded the G's that she was being abused and they agreed to help her, he could have seen just what he saw.
 
The defense doesn't have to prove anything. They can just present this as a possibility to provide reasonable doubt. And yes, if Jaycee persuaded the G's that she was being abused and they agreed to help her, he could have seen just what he saw.

Defense can just present a possibility but that possibility would have to be reasonable. She was 11 years old. Under which circumstances would she be meeting with a convicted sex offender and explaining anything to him?
Give me a break.
 
Defense can just present a possibility but that possibility would have to be reasonable. She was 11 years old. Under which circumstances would she be meeting with a convicted sex offender and explaining anything to him?
Give me a break.

That's the funny thing about the defense. They don't have to prove that an alternate theory is true, or even logical. They just have to show that it could be possible. Anything to show that the story being presented by the prosecution could be wrong. And if it is or could be wrong, then the G's could be innocent. And if there is any possiblity that the G's are innocent then they can't be convicted.
 
Yeah, I just don't think there are going to problems like that in the trial(s). Call me optimistic (which would be a first), but I'm just not seeing it. I'll admit I am a little worried NG will end up with a Karla Homolka deal, but even that evil excuse for a human got some prison time! Anyway, it's going to be a while before the trial(s), and a lot can happen. So, I'm choosing to cross this bridge if and when I come to it.
 
That's the funny thing about the defense. They don't have to prove that an alternate theory is true, or even logical. They just have to show that it could be possible. Anything to show that the story being presented by the prosecution could be wrong. And if it is or could be wrong, then the G's could be innocent. And if there is any possiblity that the G's are innocent then they can't be convicted.

It has to be a reasonable possibility. Not "any" possibility. It's beyond a reasonable doubt. Not beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 
Yeah, I just don't think there are going to problems like that in the trial(s). Call me optimistic (which would be a first), but I'm just not seeing it. I'll admit I am a little worried NG will end up with a Karla Homolka deal, but even that evil excuse for a human got some prison time! Anyway, it's going to be a while before the trial(s), and a lot can happen. So, I'm choosing to cross this bridge if and when I come to it.

I don't think it will happen either. Because I think Jaycee will testify. I think it will be hard for her to do, but I think she will do it. You don't survive what she has unless you are very strong physically and psychologically.
 
One thought that occurred to me, the reason why they got this particular lawyer to represent Jaycee may be to ensure that she stays onside if she was showing signs of wavering. Having someone with extensive prosecutorial experience but is not directly associated with the prosecutors office could be pretty useful in that respect.

I think that their strategy in building the case up is going to be two pronged, on one hand ensuring that Jaycee testifies when the time comes, and on the other hand recruiting Nancy to their side to corroborate. If they did that I think they would pretty much have a lock on convictions.

I don't think the girls would be of much use since they post-date most of the charges. Patricia maybe, but since she suffers from dementia she would be useless as a witness.

Other witnesses for corroboration? Carl of course will be used. Some of the neighbors and business associates? perhaps.
 
They will need brainwashing experts whether JC testifies or not.
I don't see why they would need to make any deals with Nancy unless she can provide information on some other crimes they think Garrido could have possibly committed.
 
I don't think they will give NG a walk. They might say they will advise the judge and request a reduced sentence, but since she was actively involved in the abduction I don't think she will get a free pass.

But if Jaycee testifys I don't think they will really need NG. I think Carl's testimony along with Jaycee's, a description of the vehicle and evidence showing that PG owned that type of vehicle will be enough to support the witness testimony. I don't think it will be a complicated case. Unless they go for insanity or incompetent defendent. Then things will get more complicated.
 
They will need brainwashing experts whether JC testifies or not.
I don't see why they would need to make any deals with Nancy unless she can provide information on some other crimes they think Garrido could have possibly committed.

Most likely other crimes that PG may have committed won't be allowed in the trial. It is considered prejuduical toward the defendant, unless there is a clear pattern to Jaycee's abduction. And at this point they don't have that. The 14 yo victim didn't go to trial, so there was no conviction. The rape that was convicted, was an adult, there was no accomplice and so the pattern didn't match Jaycee.
 
I don't think they will give NG a walk. They might say they will advise the judge and request a reduced sentence, but since she was actively involved in the abduction I don't think she will get a free pass.

But if Jaycee testifys I don't think they will really need NG. I think Carl's testimony along with Jaycee's, a description of the vehicle and evidence showing that PG owned that type of vehicle will be enough to support the witness testimony. I don't think it will be a complicated case. Unless they go for insanity or incompetent defendent. Then things will get more complicated.

That depends on how confident they are that Jaycee will be able/capable of testifying. Having Nancy as a plan B makes good sense under those circumstances. If she is not needed that is fine, otherwise they run the risk that they can't make their case if Jaycee flakes, and that would be a disaster. Having both of them would make the case rock solid no matter what happens. Even if they did do a deal with Nancy it would likely be for a reduced sentence, or limiting conviction to the kidnapping/confinement charges only, they wouldn't just let her go. Whether they do that or not IMO will depend on how involved she was in the actual assaults, if she wasn't involved directly those would become bargaining chips. If the case for her involvement is solid there is no way they could let her go on those two charges because of the circumstances of the case.

An insanity defence wouldn't fly for PG btw, it is clear from his public statements that he understands right from wrong. Nancy, we don't know enough about her state of mind to comment on that. The biggest issue as far as PG is concerned (I'm assuming that they will get at least one of the ladies to testify, so he won't get out of it in trial) is competentcy.
 
There won't be any since their testimony would be ruled inadmissable.

Since when is it inadmissible to put an expert on the stand?
It certainly was admissible for "girl in the box" trial. What exactly makes you think this trial would be any different?
 
Since when is it inadmissible to put an expert on the stand?
It certainly was admissible for "girl in the box" trial. What exactly makes you think this trial would be any different?

The test is that the subject matter has to be generally scientifically accepted (see [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frye_Standard[/ame], [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daubert_standard[/ame])

Expert evidence about "Mind control" doesn't meet that standard, hence is usually ruled inadmissable. There might be testimony about her mental state, but I seriously doubt the DA is going to be trying to enter any claims about mind control into evidence.
 
The test is that the subject matter has to be generally scientifically accepted (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frye_Standard, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daubert_standard)

Expert evidence about "Mind control" doesn't meet that standard, hence is usually ruled inadmissable. There might be testimony about her mental state, but I seriously doubt the DA is going to be trying to enter any claims about mind control into evidence.

Well I seriously doubt DA isn't going to try enter claims of mind control.
It sure was allowed during "girl in the box" trial.

"Then psychologist Chris Hatcher, with impressive credentials and experience in such cases, explained to the jury how mind control worked. He addressed the dynamics of sado-masochism, and the dominant and submissive personalities involved—particularly the excitement factor for the "master" in getting someone to submit to his whims. Hatcher then talked about how the effects of sudden kidnapping, death threats, being housed in a dark tomb that disturbed daylight patterns, the physical abuse, the loss of control over necessary bodily functions, and the lack of communication were collectively effective in breaking down Carol's will. He had examined the crime scene and had interviewed Carol at length, and he believed that she had been coerced into staying with the Hookers. In other words, her values, her identity, and her whole way of looking at the world had been changed."
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/sex_slave/11.html
 

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