NC NC - Faith Hedgepeth, 19, UNC student, Chapel Hill, 7 Sep 2012 #2

[Webthrush]

I understand LE has to keep certain info close to the vest. But this whole dna thing is messing with me. Was it found in or on Faith? Could it have been there from days before? Could dna have somehow been transferred to Faith from KR's bedding? Faith was found in KR's room and bed, half naked. Isn't it possible?.....

Look, I think police may have made some grievous errors in the first 72 hrs. of this case, BUT I do assume they know whether or not the semen they reference at the crime scene (ON Faith or the bedding, NOT in her) was fresh or days old. Moreover, the fact that the semen DNA matches DNA specifically on the pen, bag, and bottle, again seems (to me) to lead incontrovertibly to their conclusion that that DNA is from the actual perp. Anything is possible, but many, many things are not probable.

 

[ChristiePoirot]

Look, I think police may have made some grievous errors in the first 72 hrs. of this case, BUT I do assume they know whether or not the semen they reference at the crime scene (ON Faith or the bedding, NOT in her) was fresh or days old. Moreover, the fact that the semen DNA matches DNA specifically on the pen, bag, and bottle, again seems (to me) to lead incontrovertibly to their conclusion that that DNA is from the actual perp. Anything is possible, but many, many things are not probable.

Thanks for clearing it up.
all the news reports seem to give conflicting statements. I'm not implying that LE don't know how to do their jobs. Just curious to find out more about the dna they did find.
Sorry. I'll try not to ask too many stupid questions.

 

[ChristiePoirot]

I have 2 latino POI's. one has a record for attempted rape from 2006, is registered in NC as a sex offender and in 2011 he was arrested again for indecent exposure. He may have an outstanding warrant and left the state.

The other POI doesn't seem to have a criminal record, but he has a connection to KR and actually looks like the composite. He may be in Massachusetts .

 

[Webthrush]

Thanks for clearing it up.
all the news reports seem to give conflicting statements. I'm not implying that LE don't know how to do their jobs. Just curious to find out more about the dna they did find.
Sorry. I'll try not to ask too many stupid questions.

Yeah, news reports have conflicted unfortunately on various points, and I didn't mean to imply your question was stupid, but just that with new folks constantly finding out about this case we keep having to go over things already addressed multiple times (I realize new people can't usually go back and read all threads). I do get frustrated that so many folks want to put the DNA aside in order to feed some pet theory, when from my perspective, the DNA is some of the only key, straightforward evidence in this case. But time will tell.
As to your POIs can we assume you've turned those names over to law enforcement for investigation? (as added incentive, as you probably know, there's a potential reward for such info in this case) ...and do you know which town in Mass. the one may be in?

 

[Webthrush]

It’s been a long time-time gripe that, oddly, no estimated-time-of-death for Faith has ever been released (which might eliminate some theories), and I’m not sure how rough any such estimate would be, but this table I found gives some indication of what might be determined forensically:
********************
The table below summarizes the key changes which take place within 48 hours of death:
Time since death: …. Change observed

1-2 hours: ………Early signs of lividity. [blue-gray discoloring]
2-5 hours: ………Clear signs of lividity throughout body.
5-7 hours: ………Rigor mortis begins in face.
8-12 hours: …….Rigor mortis established throughout the body, extending to arms and legs
12 hours: ……….Body has cooled to about 25°C internally.
20-24 hours: …..Body has cooled to surrounding temperature.
24 hours: ……….Rigor mortis begins to disappear from the body in roughly the same order as it appeared.
36 hours: ……….Rigor mortis has completely disappeared.
48 hours: ……….Body discolouration shows that decomposition is beginning.

********************
The body was discovered around 11 am. We know KR left the apt. by around 4:30am., after the women returned home shortly before 3am. -- that leaves a small window of opportunity for those who believe KR killed Faith to have done so, basically between 3 and 4, or 7-8 hrs. before the body was discovered. Rigor mortis would’ve begun setting in.

I’ve always assumed that the murder occurred AFTER KR left but before sunrise (before 7am. and a lot of morning activity), which produces another narrow span of opportunity: ~4:45 - 6:45, or ~4-6 hrs. before the body was found, with less if any rigor mortis. [any later than that and there would be no rigor mortis, and I'm guessing we would've heard of that]

This may all still leave us in an ambiguous state… or, even if it works against the theory of KR committing the murder it yet allows for the possibility of her planning the crime and leaving the door unlocked for the perp (though again I think this was clearly a crime of sudden rage/impulse and not one of premeditation, jmo).

 

[ChristiePoirot]

Yeah, news reports have conflicted unfortunately on various points, and I didn't mean to imply your question was stupid, but just that with new folks constantly finding out about this case we keep having to go over things already addressed multiple times (I realize new people can't usually go back and read all threads). I do get frustrated that so many folks want to put the DNA aside in order to feed some pet theory, when from my perspective, the DNA is some of the only key, straightforward evidence in this case. But time will tell.
As to your POIs can we assume you've turned those names over to law enforcement for investigation? (as added incentive, as you probably know, there's a potential reward for such info in this case) ...and do you know which town in Mass. the one may be in?

No, discovered the poi's yesterday, haven't turned the names in yet,
and
Yes. Springfield, Mass.

 

[ChristiePoirot]

Comparing the dna composite with Faith's girlfriend M.R., I thought they looked similar to one another. M.R. doesn't seem to have much of an online presence either, which I thought was kind of odd.

 

[CADwrest]

It’s been a long time-time gripe that, oddly, no estimated-time-of-death for Faith has ever been released (which might eliminate some theories), and I’m not sure how rough any such estimate would be, but this table I found gives some indication of what might be determined forensically:
********************
The table below summarizes the key changes which take place within 48 hours of death:
Time since death: …. Change observed

1-2 hours: ………Early signs of lividity. [blue-gray discoloring]
2-5 hours: ………Clear signs of lividity throughout body.
5-7 hours: ………Rigor mortis begins in face.
8-12 hours: …….Rigor mortis established throughout the body, extending to arms and legs
12 hours: ……….Body has cooled to about 25°C internally.
20-24 hours: …..Body has cooled to surrounding temperature.
24 hours: ……….Rigor mortis begins to disappear from the body in roughly the same order as it appeared.
36 hours: ……….Rigor mortis has completely disappeared.
48 hours: ……….Body discolouration shows that decomposition is beginning.

********************
The body was discovered around 11 am. We know KR left the apt. by around 4:30am., after the women returned home shortly before 3am. -- that leaves a small window of opportunity for those who believe KR killed Faith to have done so, basically between 3 and 4, or 7-8 hrs. before the body was discovered. Rigor mortis would’ve begun setting in.

I’ve always assumed that the murder occurred AFTER KR left but before sunrise (before 7am. and a lot of morning activity), which produces another narrow span of opportunity: ~4:45 - 6:45, or ~4-6 hrs. before the body was found, with less if any rigor mortis. [any later than that and there would be no rigor mortis, and I'm guessing we would've heard of that]

I don't have the autopsy report right in front of me at the moment; did it mention whether rigor mortis had set in or not?
Also, to my recollection, the autopsy did not take place until the following day, on September 8th (though I wonder if they attempted to ascertain a time of death before that). So if the rigor is mentioned, it should be beginning to disappear by that point.
I wonder if maybe they don't feel they can pinpoint the time of death precisely enough, and that's why it hasn't been released.

 

[raiders444]

It’s been a long time-time gripe that, oddly, no estimated-time-of-death for Faith has ever been released (which might eliminate some theories), and I’m not sure how rough any such estimate would be, but this table I found gives some indication of what might be determined forensically:
********************
The table below summarizes the key changes which take place within 48 hours of death:
Time since death: …. Change observed

1-2 hours: ………Early signs of lividity. [blue-gray discoloring]
2-5 hours: ………Clear signs of lividity throughout body.
5-7 hours: ………Rigor mortis begins in face.
8-12 hours: …….Rigor mortis established throughout the body, extending to arms and legs
12 hours: ……….Body has cooled to about 25°C internally.
20-24 hours: …..Body has cooled to surrounding temperature.
24 hours: ……….Rigor mortis begins to disappear from the body in roughly the same order as it appeared.
36 hours: ……….Rigor mortis has completely disappeared.
48 hours: ……….Body discolouration shows that decomposition is beginning.

********************
The body was discovered around 11 am. We know KR left the apt. by around 4:30am., after the women returned home shortly before 3am. -- that leaves a small window of opportunity for those who believe KR killed Faith to have done so, basically between 3 and 4, or 7-8 hrs. before the body was discovered. Rigor mortis would’ve begun setting in.

I’ve always assumed that the murder occurred AFTER KR left but before sunrise (before 7am. and a lot of morning activity), which produces another narrow span of opportunity: ~4:45 - 6:45, or ~4-6 hrs. before the body was found, with less if any rigor mortis. [any later than that and there would be no rigor mortis, and I'm guessing we would've heard of that]

This may all still leave us in an ambiguous state… or, even if it works against the theory of KR committing the murder it yet allows for the possibility of her planning the crime and leaving the door unlocked for the perp (though again I think this was clearly a crime of sudden rage/impulse and not one of premeditation, jmo).

This raises an interesting question for me. In crimes where exact time of death is of the utmost importance after a body is found, how would they be able to narrow it to a small 2 hour window like in the chart you posted, if the autopsy is usually done the following day, or later the same day- like 10+ hours later. The longer the wait, the more vague it could become. Does LE bring a coroner to the crime scene to determine that sort of thing on the spot? Move the deceased's body around to check rigor mortis etc

 

[Skigirl]

This raises an interesting question for me. In crimes where exact time of death is of the utmost importance after a body is found, how would they be able to narrow it to a small 2 hour window like in the chart you posted, if the autopsy is usually done the following day, or later the same day- like 10+ hours later. The longer the wait, the more vague it could become. Does LE bring a coroner to the crime scene to determine that sort of thing on the spot? Move the deceased's body around to check rigor mortis etc

Rigor mortis is something I've had experience with after living on a farm with many animals. It is not subtle at all. You cannot miss it. I think an EMT can determine whether it's present and to what degree. The EMT may not know how to translate that into time, but I think a coroner should be able to do it with a description or a score. I bet anything there is some sort of "rigor mortis assessment scale."

 

[Webthrush]

This raises an interesting question for me. In crimes where exact time of death is of the utmost importance after a body is found, how would they be able to narrow it to a small 2 hour window like in the chart you posted, if the autopsy is usually done the following day, or later the same day- like 10+ hours later. The longer the wait, the more vague it could become. Does LE bring a coroner to the crime scene to determine that sort of thing on the spot? Move the deceased's body around to check rigor mortis etc

Yeah, I wondered about that too, but I would think that surely police are trained to recognize lividity and rigor mortis at a crime scene, and take some note of it even if they aren't trained to make a clear estimation of time-lapse -- the one brief handwritten sheet I've seen of the first officer on the scene makes no mention of rigor mortis (which again seems odd to me, unless there was no r.m. and death came much later in the morning than I presume?).

 

[youlostone]

I don't have the autopsy report right in front of me at the moment; did it mention whether rigor mortis had set in or not?
Also, to my recollection, the autopsy did not take place until the following day, on September 8th (though I wonder if they attempted to ascertain a time of death before that). So if the rigor is mentioned, it should be beginning to disappear by that point.
I wonder if maybe they don't feel they can pinpoint the time of death precisely enough, and that's why it hasn't been released.

Presence of rigor and lividity can still be noted at the scene, especially in the event that photos are taken (in this instance they most certainly were taken) and/or someone from the Medical Examiner is present at the scene. A representative from the MEs office would have been sent to the scene on their behalf.

 

[youlostone]

Rigor mortis is something I've had experience with after living on a farm with many animals. It is not subtle at all. You cannot miss it. I think an EMT can determine whether it's present and to what degree. The EMT may not know how to translate that into time, but I think a coroner should be able to do it with a description or a score. I bet anything there is some sort of "rigor mortis assessment scale."

I have been involved in some hospital autopsies and there is a scale used to evaluate rigor and lividity (albeit not very scientific). Not sure if/how they use it on the forensic side as well, but I'm certain they do take note of these findings. Rigor can be affected by things like room and body temperature so it's not always reliable down to the hour. Probably more reliable in the sense that you know the person isn't decomposing yet and died somewhat recently.

 

[ChristiePoirot]

The formula is:

Hours since death = 98.6 – corpse core temperature / 1.5
approximate rate of heat loss continues until the environmental temperature is attained, after which it remains stable. The 1.5-degree-per-hour factor varies, depending upon the environment surrounding the body, the size of the corpse, clothing, and other factors.
The coroner’s technician who processes the corpse at the scene takes a body temperature, and also measures the temperature of the surrounding medium.
Determining Time of Death

 

[Webthrush]

OK, so I’m wondering WHAT IF the reason there is no mention of rigor mortis or body lividity in the initial crime scene reports, nor the 911 call, isn’t simply because it went unnoticed… BUT because there was no rigor mortis or lividity to be seen — i.e. the murder occurred later in the morning than we tend to presume; say between 10:00 and 10:30am, in broad daylight but after most Hawthorn residents had departed for work/school?

I’m doubtful that’s the case, but it would likely change my outlook/theories about the crime IF it were the case.

 

[CADwrest]

OK, so I’m wondering WHAT IF the reason there is no mention of rigor mortis or body lividity in the initial crime scene reports, nor the 911 call, isn’t simply because it went unnoticed… BUT because there was no rigor mortis or lividity to be seen — i.e. the murder occurred later in the morning than we tend to presume; say between 10:00 and 10:30am, in broad daylight but after most Hawthorn residents had departed for work/school?

I’m doubtful that’s the case, but it would likely change my outlook/theories about the crime IF it were the case.

I've had the same thought lately, since we've been discussing time of death. I'm really not sure what my theory would be about a late morning murder, though. Some acquaintance dropping by to see if she wants to go out to breakfast before class? A prowler who thinks he looks less suspicious walking around in the daylight?

 

[scadagirl28]

Didn't KR say she felt cold in the 911 call ? If correct , then according to the formula provided by webthrush , wouldn't that indicate 12 hours ?

 

[CADwrest]

Didn't KR say she felt cold in the 911 call ? If correct , then according to the formula provided by webthrush , wouldn't that indicate 12 hours ?

I think “cold” is probably relative: KR is saying her body temperature is noticeably lower than it should be.
There’s no way she could’ve been dead 12 hours, since she was seen by dozens of people at Thrill 9 hours (at most) earlier.

 

[J.M. Bee]

The author of the "Here for Faith" blog wrote a good post about the time of death, state of the body, lividity/rigor mortis issue and asked if it was worth considering the idea that (i) LE have never mentioned lividity or rigor mortis because there was none and that (ii) Faith might have been killed the following morning around 10am. I have my doubts about this for a variety of reasons, and I replied to his or her blog piece as follows:

It's an interesting thought, and I think using the state of the body to determine the time of the murder is crucial, but I seriously doubt that it occurred late the following morning because I think police --- who have cooperated with a number of TV programs on this case --- would have let the public know that this is what the evidence indicates. Why police have said little to nothing about the estimated time of death (ETOD) is a bit of a mystery to me, but if the ETOD were 10am, I think we would know this. After all, what would be the point of soliciting help from the public, what would be the point of any of the shows or podcasts or articles that have discussed this case, if that important piece of information had been omitted? Everything everyone has been discussing for six years now would be rendered more or less meaningless by its omission.

But I do agree that the ETOD is important.

The question is why they haven't said anything about it. It could be because it's a relatively wide time window --- e.g., 3am to 6am --- or it could be because they aren't confident in the coroner's determination for some reason. Hard to know.

 

[CADwrest]

As to why they haven't released TOD, I believe it is a combination of things.

1) The window is probably wide enough to not be definitive. It's probably something like 3 AM to 7 AM, with a "probable" range somewhat narrower than that.
2) At this point, I believe that's a piece of information LE have decided they just are not going to release. There are always bits of information that LE controls in every case, and I think that's one of them here.

The impression I've always gotten here is that LE believes the public could be of assistance in a few, limited ways. Someone recognizing the Paragon image, someone who lived nearby remembering something somebody said about it, somebody remembering a friend who started acting weird right afterwards, etc. To that end, I think they are encouraging of coverage the case gets, to get the word out about it, and to reach people who may know something but hadn't heard about it before.

But I don't think they believe that the public will come up with some new investigatory idea that will help them solve the case, which is why they are so tight-lipped about giving out any additional details about it. For the same reason, I also don't think they care when these shows start exploring theories that they know are wrong-headed; I just don't think they're all that interested in our theorizing. They just want the right person to hear about the case and remember something helpful.