NC - MacDonald family murders at Fort Bragg, 1970 - Jeffrey MacDonald innocent?

[hollyjokers]

I thought it was interesting that during the 1979 trial when MacDonald's attorney was trying to coerce Helena Stoekley into admitting she was in the house, he showed her the crime scene photos. She said a person on acid, weed, heroin & whatever else that she normally took would not have done that, but someone on speed would. "Did they ever check to see if he was on speed?" It was after the trial was over, McGinniss was staying in MacDonald's Huntington Beach condo, he found MacDonald's notes saying he may have taken an Eskatrol pill with dinner.

 

[borndem]

There were unforgivable mistakes made in the investigation, but the mistakes do not account for the blood evidence, the lack of ANY forensic evidence in the living room area of attack, his many lies such as not owning the ice pick, knives & wooden club, or how he & a green beret buddy hunted down & killed one of the real killers. No reason for an innocent man to lie about those things.

What evidence makes you think he has been innocent all along? Testimony of celebrity coroner Thomas Noguchi? He'll state his opinion to suit the highest bidder.

Lots of mistakes made by investigators in Kathleen Savio's case as well, but the truth still shines through in the end.

.

Ouch! And touche, jokers. The Thanks button was not enuff for this post! Excellent comparison, IMO.

They matched the club to slats to Kim's (was it Kim's? or Kristens's) bed; the babysitter testified to using the ice pick; and one of the knives had been used to pry open a can of paint used in the house. If you were the killer(s) would you have stopped to neatly put them in the backyard of the apt, near the door, or would you have possibly have dumped them in a dumpster or storm drain, etc.??

And why, if the killers were in the living room with JM, would Collette be saying "Help" and "Why are they doing this to me?" ? Why would his pj threads -- lots of them -- be under Collette's body? And in the backyard? And under Kim's fingernail? And how could a stain pattern of Collette's blood be seen on the pocket of his pj's before it was torn? And why is so little of JM's blood type in the apt -- drops found in the bathroom (where he injured himself with the scalpel) & kitchen only (where he got the gloves)? And so much more...

 

[borndem]

It's just a travesty that men who tell enormous lies (have to be in Russiia during birth of 3rd child), wind up with dead wives & kids, and THEN have to put up with corrupt police, DA's, judges....damn shame.

I think it may also be the cause of global warming....

 

[katydid23]

Why kill the children well because they could ID the killer. Maybe they thought Macdonald was dead.

My point was IF the guys weren't caught right away, since Dr. Petit lived they would have looked at him as having involvement in his families deaths.
I do for the most part believe Macdonald is guilty, but there is still them little things that nag me, that's why I am trying to come to my own conclusions from the material available. However I am the first to admit I always give people the benefit I would be the worst person to be on a jury.......really.

The youngest girl was two years old. There was no chance she was going to ID anyone. She was stabbed 33 times, so it was not a case of protecting one's identity, imo.

There was no reason to think McDonald was dead. He had little to no injuries and he would have been breathing and had a pulse. Everyone else in the family was brutalized. They were victims of overkill. He had one serious stabbing injury, compared to 33 in the 2 yr old.

 

[Madeleine74]

The problem with murder cases is when you let your feelings rule instead of just looking at the evidence.

The logic employed in these situations goes on emotion and not the physical evidence--to some it seems possible that since a Charlie Manson & his mind control cult did what they did in 1969 in Hollywood that it could be repeated again and in a matter of months. Never mind that such a thing has never occurred again in the 43 years since, just the fact that it's possible, allows some to make the leap that it must have happened in the MacDonald case because MacDonald said so and someone wrote "PIG" on the headboard in the bedroom.

Those surgical gloves used in the commission of the crime at the MacDonald house, the ones in which bloody pieces were found? Those were stored under the kitchen sink, behind a sack of potatoes, behind cleaners and underneath something else. IOW, not visible at all and not easily accessible. Yet those who believe 4 intruders were there think it logical drugged out intruders found (or brought their own I guess) surgical gloves; to me it shows they don't know the simple facts in the case.

Or they read something about crime scene contamination and to them that means every single piece of blood evidence, fiber, gloves, all of it, is somehow not relevant. There were 81 fibers from MacDonald's PJs in the master bedroom. There were a dozen or more of PJ fibers in Kim's room under her covers and more fibers in Kristen's room. There were ZERO PJ fibers in the LR, where MacDonald said he was attacked. No one was walking around sprinkling MacDonald PJ fibers. How could all evidence of 4 intruders be magically obliterated in the apartment but only blood, fiber and other evidence from the family be left?

Or upon hearing that MacDonald's PJ bottoms got thrown away or a piece of skin under one daughter's nails was misplaced that somehow exonerates MacDonald. It doesn't. You have to use all the other evidence you have that wasn't thrown away.

And none of the misplaced evidence erases MacDonald's blatant and obvious lies. You have to ask yourself WHY an innocent husband and father would not only lie about the murders and the crime scene but show no interest at all in finding out who did this to his family. The only ones looking for answers and demanding case updates were Collette's mother and stepfather. MacDonald was busy building his new life in CA.

 

[believe09]

I am trying to decide under what circumstances a multi time convicted murderer whose convictions have been repeatedly upheld should be allowed to burn the resources of cash strapped jurisdictions for something so completely un-awe inspiring as the evidence raised.

I appreciate the desire to cross every t and dot every i. MacDonald is playing a game. Like Bundy and many others...like the ones Scott Peterson and Drew Peterson will play as well.

I have worked with the Innocence Project and have been amazed and heartened by the work they do. IIRC, they havent touched MacDonald with a 10 foot pole. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[JulieR]

The youngest girl was two years old. There was no chance she was going to ID anyone. She was stabbed 33 times, so it was not a case of protecting one's identity, imo.

There was no reason to think McDonald was dead. He had little to no injuries and he would have been breathing and had a pulse. Everyone else in the family was brutalized. They were victims of overkill. He had one serious stabbing injury, compared to 33 in the 2 yr old.

Some places say his wounds were bad and other places make light of them. He was in the hospital I think 8 days. I never read the 2 year old was stabbed 33 times....haven't been that far maybe. I know many here have a strong belief in his guilt and I can't blame them, I need to come to that conclusion on my own. It sure appears he is guilty, I just have a hard time with after the fact 9 years later they have enough to put him away. I really wish with all the new DNA stuff that wasn't available back then they would retest all that's left and put an end to it. If other people really were in the house it would show on some of their clothing or something, touch DNA on the weapons something would be left. With the hairs found someone said well other people would have left hairs babysitters, friends I agree but these were found on the bodies one under the youngest finger nails it just seem worth testing. I always have that little thing that says what if..........what if he is innocent? I know don't blast me I do still need to read more, believe me every time I read Macdonald's own words I'm like He is guilty!! He didn't do himself any good by talking thats for sure.

 

[borndem]

A bit about Jim Blackburn -

I know Jim Blackburn personally -- he's not a close friend, but he is a friend of mine, and I have known him ever since he was prosecuting MacDonald in Federal Court. He was then, and still is, brilliant, a true Southern gentleman (and I mean this as a very fine compliment), a Christian, a good family man, and an honest and good citizen. I saw him in triumph and in tragedy. He is doing well, very happy and upbeat and still charming (in that way that some people do when they don't realize they're doing it). He is a good guy.

This blurb from his website explains briefly his fall:

http://blackburnseminars.com/author

 

[katydid23]

Some places say his wounds were bad and other places make light of them. He was in the hospital I think 8 days. I never read the 2 year old was stabbed 33 times....haven't been that far maybe. I know many here have a strong belief in his guilt and I can't blame them, I need to come to that conclusion on my own. It sure appears he is guilty, I just have a hard time with after the fact 9 years later they have enough to put him away. I really wish with all the new DNA stuff that wasn't available back then they would retest all that's left and put an end to it. If other people really were in the house it would show on some of their clothing or something, touch DNA on the weapons something would be left. With the hairs found someone said well other people would have left hairs babysitters, friends I agree but these were found on the bodies one under the youngest finger nails it just seem worth testing. I always have that little thing that says what if..........what if he is innocent? I know don't blast me I do still need to read more, believe me every time I read Macdonald's own words I'm like He is guilty!! He didn't do himself any good by talking thats for sure.

Colette, who had been pregnant with her third child, was lying on the floor of her bedroom. She had been repeatedly clubbed (both her arms were broken) and stabbed 37 times (21 times with an ice pick and 16 times with a knife). Her husband's torn pajama top was draped upon her chest. On the headboard of the bed, the word "pig" was written in blood.
Five-year-old Kimberley was found in her bed, having been clubbed in the head and stabbed in the neck with a knife between eight and ten times. Two-year-old Kristen was found in her own bed; she had been stabbed with a knife 33 times and stabbed with an ice pick 15 times.[2][3][4]
MacDonald was found next to his wife alive but wounded. His wounds were not as severe as what his family had suffered. He was immediately taken to nearby Womack Hospital. MacDonald suffered cuts and bruises on his face and chest along with a mild concussion. He also had a stab wound on his left torso in what a staff surgeon referred to as a "clean, small, sharp" incision that caused one lung to partially collapse. He was treated at Womack Hospital and released after one week.[5]

[from wiki...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_R._MacDonald

ETA: How hard would your husband or boyfriend fight to save his little children from invaders? Mine would have had a lot more than one stab wound to take him down. And he is not a trained Army warrior in peak condition either.

 

[hollyjokers]

The problem with murder cases is when you let your feelings rule instead of just looking at the evidence.

The logic employed in these situations goes on emotion and not the physical evidence--to some it seems possible that since a Charlie Manson & his mind control cult did what they did in 1969 in Hollywood that it could be repeated again and in a matter of months. Never mind that such a thing has never occurred again in the 43 years since, just the fact that it's possible, allows some to make the leap that it must have happened in the MacDonald case because MacDonald said so and someone wrote "PIG" on the headboard in the bedroom.

Those surgical gloves used in the commission of the crime at the MacDonald house, the ones in which bloody pieces were found? Those were stored under the kitchen sink, behind a sack of potatoes, behind cleaners and underneath something else. IOW, not visible at all and not easily accessible. Yet those who believe 4 intruders were there think it logical drugged out intruders found (or brought their own I guess) surgical gloves; to me it shows they don't know the simple facts in the case.

Or they read something about crime scene contamination and to them that means every single piece of blood evidence, fiber, gloves, all of it, is somehow not relevant. There were 81 fibers from MacDonald's PJs in the master bedroom. There were a dozen or more of PJ fibers in Kim's room under her covers and more fibers in Kristen's room. There were ZERO PJ fibers in the LR, where MacDonald said he was attacked. No one was walking around sprinkling MacDonald PJ fibers. How could all evidence of 4 intruders be magically obliterated in the apartment but only blood, fiber and other evidence from the family be left?

Or upon hearing that MacDonald's PJ bottoms got thrown away or a piece of skin under one daughter's nails was misplaced that somehow exonerates MacDonald. It doesn't. You have to use all the other evidence you have that wasn't thrown away.

And none of the misplaced evidence erases MacDonald's blatant and obvious lies. You have to ask yourself WHY an innocent husband and father would not only lie about the murders and the crime scene but show no interest at all in finding out who did this to his family. The only ones looking for answers and demanding case updates were Collette's mother and stepfather. MacDonald was busy building his new life in CA.

I <3 you. lol

 

[Madeleine74]

The reason, btw, that all the really 'good' forensic evidence only came to light later was because the FBI got involved. While Hoover was still in charge of the FBI, he wrote a memo in which he refused the FBI to get involved in the MacDonald case since it was a "military matter." It wasn't until after Hoover's death in 1972 (3 yrs after the murders) that the FBI could even be approached to help investigate the crime.

The rest of the years were filled with various initiatives to get the Justice Dept to reopen the investigation, and all the other legal maneuverings it took (by Freddy Kassab, Collette's father) to bring about justice. It didn't take 9 years to "find" the evidence...most of that time was because no one wanted to bother investigating the case after the military declined to bring the case to court martial in 1970. It's a lot of extra work to take on a case. Kassab fought an uphill battle all the way. That he got this case re-opened and investigated is an amazing testament to the human spirit because he was turned down so many times by so many people. Investigating this case became his life's mission--he wanted to know the truth. And he did it; he got this case solved.

 

[JulieR]

Colette, who had been pregnant with her third child, was lying on the floor of her bedroom. She had been repeatedly clubbed (both her arms were broken) and stabbed 37 times (21 times with an ice pick and 16 times with a knife). Her husband's torn pajama top was draped upon her chest. On the headboard of the bed, the word "pig" was written in blood.
Five-year-old Kimberley was found in her bed, having been clubbed in the head and stabbed in the neck with a knife between eight and ten times. Two-year-old Kristen was found in her own bed; she had been stabbed with a knife 33 times and stabbed with an ice pick 15 times.[2][3][4]
MacDonald was found next to his wife alive but wounded. His wounds were not as severe as what his family had suffered. He was immediately taken to nearby Womack Hospital. MacDonald suffered cuts and bruises on his face and chest along with a mild concussion. He also had a stab wound on his left torso in what a staff surgeon referred to as a "clean, small, sharp" incision that caused one lung to partially collapse. He was treated at Womack Hospital and released after one week.[5]

[from wiki...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_R._MacDonald

ETA: How hard would your husband or boyfriend fight to save his little children from invaders? Mine would have had a lot more than one stab wound to take him down. And he is not a trained Army warrior in peak condition either.

Wow I just started reading at that site tonight.... Poor Colette I am reading about her now she really put up one heck of a fight then after the autopsy they put the baby back inside her .....that just made me cry.
Oooo and to your question agree mine would be dead before he would stop fighting for his family......well he isn't in peak condition I would have to fight for him I guess....lol.

 

[Madeleine74]

Some of the evidence:

"The laboratory team from Fort Gordon spent four days inside 544 Castle Drive.

In addition to the eighty-one blue threads in the master bedroom, they found nineteen in the bedroom of Kimberly MacDonald, the majority of them under the covers that had been tucked up around the dead girl. Two threads were found in Kristen's bedroom, but in the living room, where Jeffrey MacDonald had said his pajama top had been torn during his struggle with the intruders, no fibers from it were found. A CID agent with a magnifying glass spent hours on his hands and knees, searching through the nap of the living room carpet, but all he found was some confetti from a child's game and a few strands of tinsel which had fallen, weeks earlier, from the family Christmas tree. Investigators found not only fibers, but splinters. These splinters, which were bloodstained and which appeared to have broken off the club that had been found outside the back door, were located in all three bedrooms of the apartment, including Kristen's, although Kristen had not been attacked with the club. No splinters, however, were found in the living room, where Jeffrey MacDonald said the intruders had struck him."

"It was proved by microscopic analysis that the loose fibers found in the three bedrooms of 544 Castle Drive were, in fact, identical in composition to those used in the manufacture of Jeffrey MacDonald's torn blue pajama top. It was also determined that the rubber glove fragments found in the master bedroom were identical in chemical composition to the surgical rubber gloves that had been kept beneath the MacDonald kitchen sink."

Source: Joe McGinniss. Fatal Vision

 

[borndem]

I have not rehashed all the evidence, but I read all the books (excepting the newly released one) and tons of documents back during the period before, during and after the last trial. There is so much evidence supporting his conviction. I have no doubts.

But what clinched it for me was the evidence derived from the infamous pajama top which Madelaine has described, the pattern and alignment of the punctures in it, and the blood evidence found on it, the location of its fibers, etc. It contradicts his entire "story."

Yes, Boodles & Maddie (bbm) -- I remember there was a little teaser about "special evidence" that was going to be brought out by the prosecution "soon" (this was while the trial was in progress -- it was covered fairly closely here in Raleigh, which is about 75 miles from Ft. Bragg). Several days later, a picture of the pj top was in the News & Observer (newspaper published in Raleigh NC, circ ~ 150K). It was on a mannequin-like dummy with a lot of little white squares all over it.

Yep, that did it for the jury too, according to some of them in comments after the trial. As one juror also said, something to this effect, "It was not one piece of evidence, it was all of them taken together. Such is how a circumstantial case is built.

ETA: Absolutely no doubt in my mind either, Boodles, so I'll say it again: Guilty then. Guilty now. Period.

I will add here, that I have just gone to our little library and pulled down my 663 page 1st edition Fatal Vision which I will re-read after a number of years, but for about the 5th time... whew. How many of you have done the same just lately?!

 

[hollyjokers]

The Fort Bragg boxing coach said the first time MacDonald showed up in January to work out with the team, the other members were doing a five-minute heavy bag workout. The coach said it is exceedingly strength-sapping and usually takes months to build up the endurance to finish it. MacDonald not only completed the full five minutes, but didn't appear to show much fatigue afterwards. He also sparred with the Team's middleweight champion & held his own.

But he passed out from a minor bump on the head & was unable to defend his family. He claimed he was exchanging blows with these assailants. The wounds to Colette show she fought as hard as any mother could, and there is no blood, spit, tears belonging to anyone outside that family in the apt.

Source: Fatal Vision.

 

[hollyjokers]

Yes, Boodles & Maddie (bbm) -- I remember there was a little teaser about "special evidence" that was going to be brought out by the prosecution "soon" (this was while the trial was in progress -- it was covered fairly closely here in Raleigh, which is about 75 miles from Ft. Bragg). Several days later, a picture of the pj top was in the News & Observer (newspaper published in Raleigh NC, circ ~ 150K). It was on a mannequin-like dummy with a lot of little white squares all over it.

Yep, that did it for the jury too, according to some of them in comments after the trial. As one juror also said, something to this effect, "It was not one piece of evidence, it was all of them taken together. Such is how a circumstantial case is built.

I will add here, that I have just gone to our little library and pulled down my 663 page 1st edition Fatal Vision which I will re-read after a number of years, but for about the 5th time... whew. How many of you have done the same just lately?!

A criminologist meeting with Bernie Segal regarding the pajama top said something to the effect of, "Holy Christmas, Bernie, that's as good as a fingerprint."

 

[borndem]

"Forget the fact that he lied about which child wet the bed...."

That's a big one

Indeed, robin & holly -- That has always haunted me. When I first read about the bedwetting, I didn't think much about it, but then when JM talked about going to bed & seeing Kristen there & the bed wet, I had to go back & find where I had initially read about who wet the bed.

I would like to know your thoughts on why you think he said this... Was he paranoid about the bad head injury his older daughter had?

 

[hollyjokers]

I think it probably was trying to avoid the subject of Kimmy being in the master bedroom. After rereading Fatal Vision (and I should say I stand corrected; I had thought the urine evidence didn't surface until after the trial, but it actually came in during the grand jury), I can't figure out a scenario for the sexual abuse discovery to come into play. IMO The argument was probably more about Colette revealing too much of their family dynamics at her child psych class. It did not seem to paint him in a very good light (making the pregnant wife get up & sleep on the couch).

 

[borndem]

Hi oceanblueeyes,
The only way I know how to answer your questions is to say JM's injuries cannot even come close to the injuries that took the lives of his wife, unborn baby boy and his two girls.
Why so many weapons? Well, in my opinion he was trying to cover up a murder he commited. He was on drugs for weight loss and staying awake I believe. As we know today it's called drug rage I believe.
I hope this helps you out some.

Good point about the drugs -- he said himself in his notes for the lawyers, "I may have taken an Eskatrol Spansule, but I'm not sure." He was tested at the hospital for the typical drugs: pot, alcohol or cocaine, IIRC, but he was not tested for speed (as he would have been today)...

He was 26 years old, had 2 children and another on the way. He was tired of his wife whom he had "had to marry" (his wife was merely tired), he didn't want to be married anymore, he had been up for over 24 hours that night, he worked 3 jobs & had just gotten home.

He goes into the bedroom, his side of the bed is wet -- it woulda pizzed me off, too -- so he may have said something ugly to his daughter & upset her, Collette gets on him, and he's tired & wants to sleep in his own bed (can't blame him for that), and now she starts in. He may have been ruff with the daughter when he got her out of bed, and Collette maybe tries to stop him, he lashes out at her, she runs to the storage room, he angrily goes after her (She's not gonna hit me!), she finds the bed slat, hits him on the forehead, and he just loses it. He gets it from her and pummels her with it, she runs back in the bedroom, the daughter is there crying, he pulls back the slat like a baseball player at bat and he hits his daughter, hard, by mistake. Now Collette is at him and it's on. To the death. She's no match -- this man is healthy, fit and strong and now his adrenaline is in the ascendant.

No real motive needed there -- this was hot-blooded, 2nd-degree murder. Now in his frenzied speed-fueled rage, he's got to figure out how to save his butt from being arrested for murdering his wife & child. He's frantic. You know the rest, sports fans...

 

[borndem]

If drugged up Hippies were in the home of a highly trained Armed forces warrior, threatening his pregnant wife and two little girls, I would expect him to be DEAD before his family was slaughtered. My husband would have fought until his head was cut off. He would not have been a bit banged around.

Excellent point about your DH and the Daddy of your family, katy. What father would have done differently than you describe??

Thanks for bring us to something sensible that should have happened if the 4 hippies were in there.