NC - MacDonald family murders at Fort Bragg, 1970 - Jeffrey MacDonald innocent?

[Boodles]

I must have finally parted with my MacDonald (and other) murder books last year. I went to look for them to refresh my memory, but they're gone. I'll be darned if I buy Fatal Vision again...doesn't JM get a percentage of each sale?

It will be interesting to see what transpires this week. I wonder if the hearing is open to the public.

 

[Madeleine74]

I purchased a copy back in the 80's when the book first came out but it's long gone. I just acquired an ebook copy of Fatal Vision from someone. No more paper books for me.

 

[robinparten]

Indeed, robin & holly -- That has always haunted me. When I first read about the bedwetting, I didn't think much about it, but then when JM talked about going to bed & seeing Kristen there & the bed wet, I had to go back & find where I had initially read about who wet the bed.

I would like to know your thoughts on why you think he said this... Was he paranoid about the bad head injury his older daughter had?

This is my theory - JM did not plan to murder his family that night, but something spiraled way out of control. I think he hit and/or killed Kimmie first, Collette rushed to protect her child and he beat her as well. Once it happened, there was no going back. In order for him to keep HIS life intact, he had to do something to explain the beating/murder of child and wife. He sees the Manson article and decides to recreate that scenario. He believes his story will not be seriously questioned, and his reputation will get him through this without serious scrutiny. Why did he lie about which child wet the bed? No one will ever know, but you have to wonder if it had anything to do with Jeff losing control. I think Freddie Kassab theorized about JM molesting Kimmie because he was trying desperately to make sense out of the unthinkable. It could have happened but it's a leap to go there. Unfortunately, no one will ever know the details of the truth of what happened. So sad.

 

[borndem]

[/b]

Good morning, wonders! I don't think NC had a law back then to charge for an unborn child's death. IIRC, and don't quote me on this, a law was recently enacted. Someone correct if I am wrong please.

wm

Hi, matilda! :seeya:

NC did not have a law back then, but this is a federal case, so I don't think it would have mattered. I think, JMO, if there had been a federal law at the time, they would have charged him. That case was so long ago, I'm thinking that there might not have been a law such as that anywhere, but that's just a guess...

Good to see you on this case! I was, and still am, a close follower of this case. I hope he does not get another chance at freedom -- he gave that up x 3 in February, 1970, IMHO.

 

[borndem]

The sexual abuse theory came well after his conviction, and was due in large part to advances in testing that determined it was 5 year old Kimberly who wet the bed, while JM had insisted all along it was Kristen.

Hi again, holly! Somehow I missed the info about JM's possible abuse of KM. What I would add to that theory is that children who are abused often do wet their beds due to stress and possibly pain causing them not to feel the urge to urinate. Also KM may have been sleeping with her mom to be "safe" from further abuse. This possibility is so awfully difficult to contemplate for me. We ask what else could he have done to hurt Collette and the children, and now we see what might have been possible. She was just a little girl who loved her daddy....

 

[JulieR]

Anyone know if there was a time of death on the victims? It would seem to me that Macdonald would have had to take some time to come up with all the running around he did that night. Wonder if when he told the officers he was running around checking the pulses it wasn't really running to each room with an different weapon. First the wood then the ice pick then the knifes. Also, where can I find the blood evidence in the transcripts?

 

[borndem]

Frankly I dont think a drug addict was sitting down reading newspapers or magazines.

The photo was shown but they did not mention the spring was broken even though it was.

HS said she knew it was broken because she sat on it, iirc.

Strange that the Judge found her unreliable yet it came out later on that other police agencies found her very reliable and had depended on her to make over a 100 busts in drug cases.

So she is conveniently incompetent in other criminal cases but then she isnt in the JM case.

Which two witnesses said they had seen the icepick? I know at first Colette's family was adamant that they didnt own one and years later they said they did.

IMO

Hello, friend-from-another-case, and one-time NC resident! :seeya:

Re the ice pick: The refrigerator was not frost-free which means that someone would manually have to defrost it from time to time. Collette's mother said he had used the ice pick during a Thanksgiving holiday she had spent with them at the apt, to free-up something and the baby-sitter said she had used it for the same reason. One of them said the kids wanted pop-sicles and she had used the ice pick to free them up so she could give them to the kids -- seems to me it was the baby-sitter who wanted to get the pop-sicles, but I cannot be sure. IIRC, it was Jeff only who was adamant about them not having an ice pick -- I remember that pretty well because it was tuff for me to imagine any family not having one, especially when there was a non-frost-free fridge.

The bent paring knife was used to pry open the paint container that was found in the storage room which was between the MBR and the back door -- that was why it was bent. And, IINM, Collette's mother also id'ed the Old Hickory knife as one she had seen in the kitchen drawer.

HTH

 

[borndem]

48 Hours addressed this. One of the crime scene photos that shows the rocking horse indicates that none of the springs was broken. The photo is shown on the show. It will be repeated on the OWN network on Sept. 25 either at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. (Not sure since the scheduling on OWN notes both times. Those interested may want to set your DVRs from 3 a.m. to 5 a.m. just to play it safe).

I can't find it at those times on either 9/25 or 9/26 or 9/27 (between 2:00 and 5:00am). Is there more than one OWN channel? I don't want to miss it! Thanks!

 

[borndem]

48 Hours addressed this. One of the crime scene photos that shows the rocking horse indicates that none of the springs was broken. The photo is shown on the show. It will be repeated on the OWN network on Sept. 25 either at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. (Not sure since the scheduling on OWN notes both times. Those interested may want to set your DVRs from 3 a.m. to 5 a.m. just to play it safe).

Help! I can't find it, looking at the short notes that say what the program is to be, on 9/25, 9/26 or 9/27 between 2:00am -- 5:00am. Is there another OWN program showing "Undercover" somewhere? I don't want to miss it! Thanks!

 

[borndem]

I have no idea whether he is guilty or not but people DO break into homes without weapons, without being heard by the adults, sometimes even animals do not respond, they do use weapons found in the home, kill children and leave adults unharmed. I know I am spelling the name wrong but think of Tommy Lynn Sells. A mother was convicted of murdering her own son only to later be released when he confessed. Jessica Lundsford was kidnapped from her own bedroom without any adults waking up. ANYTHING is possible and we should remember that before assuming that no one would do such a hing. They have and they will again!

:welcome: sandybeach!!!! :greetings:


We're glad to have you with us! ​

 

[borndem]

hmmm, can't find it. It is 48 hours Hard Evidence? None of the descriptions match the MacDonald case when I search on OWN. Thanks.

Same here, Boodles -- I don't want to miss it -- either they have changed when they are showing it, or their individual program descriptions are not correct. I would like to see it!

 

[hollyjokers]

I don't have it listed on my tv either.

Prosecution rested today. Then the judge allowed HS's attorney to testify, waiving attorney/client privilege. He said HS told him she was in the home, it was a confrontation that got out of hand over JM's "hard stance on drugs." I'm sure she probably implicated good ole Greg Mitchell, who, unlike Jeffrey MacDonald, passed a polygraph test, submitted fingerprint & hair samples which did not match any in the home. Tomorrow both sides have 3 hours for closing arguments.

 

[borndem]

If the board is still in evidence and chain-of-custody has been maintained, sure it can be DNA tested. Anything can be tested as long as permission is given by the court and someone pays for the testing.

Since MacDonald was convicted of 3 murders the burden is no longer on the state to prove his guilt (since they already did that in 1979), the burden shifts to MacDonald to prove his innocence and/or find a legal reason his conviction should be overturned.

My good friend was a clerk in Judge Dupree's office, although she worked for another judge also in that office during the trial. There was one entire evidence room in that office area that contained the MacDonald case evidence only -- a room full. (Oh, you don't know how badly I wanted to see what was in that room!) The room was kept intact and sealed for many years after that trial under Dupree's orders. Years later, when my friend left that office for another position, the room was as it had been, still filled with the MacDonald case evidence & still sealed. She has no idea when that room was cleared.

 

[borndem]

I thought it was interesting that during the 1979 trial when MacDonald's attorney was trying to coerce Helena Stoekley into admitting she was in the house, he showed her the crime scene photos. She said a person on acid, weed, heroin & whatever else that she normally took would not have done that, but someone on speed would. "Did they ever check to see if he was on speed?" It was after the trial was over, McGinniss was staying in MacDonald's Huntington Beach condo, he found MacDonald's notes saying he may have taken an Eskatrol pill with dinner.

Yes, and yes, holly -- and MacD was never tested for speed...

 

[Madeleine74]

Do you ever talk to Blackburn these days, Borndem?

If yes, tell him he has some fans of his closing out there.

Also, I loved the way he questioned MacD on the stand, asking him "if the jury should find that x, y, and z happened, do you have an explanation for that?" He did it about 4 or 5 times using different facts from the case and it was so effective. Plus that whole in court demo of slashing a PJ top that was similar to MacD's with an ice pick to show just how the top should look if MacD was really attacked by an ice pick-wielding man. Brilliant stuff!

 

[hollyjokers]

Borndem, I know people probably want to talk about the "new evidence" aka red herrings, but another good point Joe McGinniss made in Fatal Vision was when Helena Stoekley made her much-anticipated appearance at the trial. Jeffrey MacDonald's reaction to seeing his worst nightmare personified was...minor curiosity. He was only excited that Bernie was going to get her to admit being in the house, but beyond that, he didn't show rage, fear, or any discernible emotions towards the person who supposedly helped annihilate his family. One of those things that make you go, hmmmmm.

 

[borndem]

Do you ever talk to Blackburn these days, Borndem?

If yes, tell him he has some fans of his closing out there.

Also, I loved the way he questioned MacD on the stand, asking him "if the jury should find that x, y, and z happened, do you have an explanation for that?" He did it about 4 or 5 times using different facts from the case and it was so effective. Plus that whole in court demo of slashing a PJ top that was similar to MacD's with an ice pick to show just how the top should look if MacD was really attacked by an ice pick-wielding man. Brilliant stuff!

Yes -- I think he knows that he still has fans & believers -- and he truly is modest about it, but I don't let up. And remember, that case was his FIRST murder case. (Talk about smart & passionate for justice...)

And MacD could not give a straight answer to any of Blackburn's "If the jury should find" questions. He would come back with "No," or "I have no explanation for that finding," or "other than incompetence by the investigators, no, I have no explanation" or the like. Those answers, or lack thereof, really, really hurt him; and he was losing his temper by the second -- and that hurt, too, since it showed his lack of patience and his narcissistic disdain for the whole cross examination and for every Southerner in the courtroom....Not a good showing for the good doctor, husband or father....

I see him every couple of months or so, though not lately, and I will indeed tell him. He is so genuinely modest and just a very likeable and good guy. A great loss to the system of jurisprudence.

 

[borndem]

Borndem, I know people probably want to talk about the "new evidence" aka red herrings, but another good point Joe McGinniss made in Fatal Vision was when Helena Stoekley made her much-anticipated appearance at the trial. Jeffrey MacDonald's reaction to seeing his worst nightmare personified was...minor curiosity. He was only excited that Bernie was going to get her to admit being in the house, but beyond that, he didn't show rage, fear, or any discernible emotions towards the person who supposedly helped annihilate his family. One of those things that make you go, hmmmmm.

You said it, holly. He had apparently gotten a good look at her that night with that candle under her face -- did he look into her eyes? She was there when her drug-crazed hippie friends walked in there and took control of his entire family & residence -- horrors for that macho-macho man who apparently could do nothing with those men who overpowered him that night, although he held his own with Green Beret boxers in training for those matches over in Russia. Although he was young and fit and strong and usually in control both by brains & by brawn. Such a pity. So overpowered that he did not undergo even half the beatings that a 5- and a 2 1/2-year old little girl and a clumsy pregnant wife had withstood until they bled to death or were brain-damaged enuff to finally stop breathing. Yeah, those guys were just too much for him.

And yes, when he saw her that day, he didn't even make a move or a grimace with her reminding him of the most awful night in his life? Not move a muscle? No reaction whatsoever. Talk about self-control....

please excuse the rant....

 

[believe09]

:bow: to Mr. Blackburn.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

:bow: to Mr. Blackburn.

Weren't two of these prosecutors disbarred later on? It takes a lot for an attorney to be disbarred.

Blackburn was disbarred (12 felony counts including changing court docs)...and from what I read so was Warren Collidge.

Didnt both of these men work on the JM case?

These are not the kind of lawyers "I" would give accolades to or high fives.

IMO