NC - Two Duke Lacrosse Players Indicted

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>I agree with all you say here except for two things: these are men, absolutely not boys; and she isn't a girl.<


You are sure right on that Floh. They are all adults and they all need to take responsibility for their actions. I'm not a big fan of these "men" either. They made a very immature and stupid choice. I don't believe they should go to jail for a crime they may not have committed but like I said before, the mom in me thinks "well let this be a lesson to you". Same with the woman. She doesn't deserve to be raped for bad choices but there definately are risks associated with her line of work. She is the mother of two children and should be taking them into consideration as well. Her lifestyle and criminal history do not point to responsibility and maturity either. If you wave a red cape in front of a bull........

What I have to say about the DA in this case cannot be printed here LOL!!! He wasn't acting responsibly in this situation either.

Sherlockmom
 
Details said:
Together they also paint an all too common picture of a woman who was sexually scarred early on, and that has lead to making more unwise or risky choices. It's just all too common - the poor upbringing, the tendency to go for abusive men, and excuse the abuse, taking jobs that reinforce rather than prevent the low self esteem that comes with all of this.

There are people out there who have boyfriend after boyfriend who is abusive, who get raped multiple times. It goes with problems that lead them to believe they are worthless, but there are plenty of them out there. I have known some of them. They make some bad choices, and there's something in the body language that just tells an abuser that this is a victim.



But we have no idea what kind of upbringing this woman had or if she was attracted to abusive men. We also don't know why she decided to support her family by dancing/stripping. We do know that she was in college which nearly everyone neglects to mention as that is a positive action on her part. It shows that she didn't intend being a stripper for the rest of her life.

I think about the young lady who was murdered recently in New York I think.
She wanted to be a dancer and told her parents that she had gotten a part on Broadway when in reality she was working in a stripe club to make ends meet. Her parents had no idea and it sounds like she came from a good home with well educated parents....upper middle class. She was stripping until she got her big break. But she ended up dead instead.
 
Bobbisangel said:
But we have no idea what kind of upbringing this woman had or if she was attracted to abusive men. We also don't know why she decided to support her family by dancing/stripping. We do know that she was in college which nearly everyone neglects to mention as that is a positive action on her part. It shows that she didn't intend being a stripper for the rest of her life.

Yes, from what I understand, she's a student at a nearby college. I remember hearing that the prosecutor went to her school to do one of his press conferencesa and that it blew my mind.

All I remember hearing about her past is that she had been married, but he wasn't the father(s) of her children and that she lied about him committing a crime against her in the past. I also seem to recall that she had been in the Navy (reserve maybe), but that she left when she got pregnant.
 
Sherlockmom said:
I'm trying to find a quote from Dr. Michael Baden about the forensics in this case. Supposedly he was interviewed by Newsweek. Does anyone have that quote?

Sherlockmom
DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Usually, a physician can't tell consensual from non-consensual. They can tell whether there's been intercourse or not intercourse, but not whether it's consensual because one can have bruises and certain injuries from consensual sex and one can have no injuries from non-consensual sex.
 
Sherlockmom said:
>Who calls 911 to tell the operator that someone called them a racial slur and they are angry? I would suspect that two strippers have most likely been called much worse. I don't think they are that fragile that they had to call 911 because someone called them a name.
Like has been stated before, we have no idea of their upbringing so we don't know about neighborhoods they lived in etc.

But I can tell you from my experience of living in a city (metro area only) that is 73.5% Black and 24.1% White, that if somone starts yelling racial slurs, either way, you pick up your kids and go in the house. If you can't do that, drive to a police station, if you can't do that, call 911 just in case shots get fired. I've personally seen a guy get out of a car and walk down the street with a sawed off shotgun, then I ran and laid down in the floor.
There are lots of gangs here and they move their 'territories' around it seems. These are Black, White and Hispanic gangs involved. Alabama had the third-highest number of arrests in a national two-week sweep of criminal Latino gangs, the largest of which is MS-13. We also have a large Neo Confederate gang running around.

Now this doesn't happen in everyones neighborhood, but I can't afford to live in theirs, so live here instead. I'm also not stating that this is just black neighborhoods, mine is pretty diverse. But the facts remain that the majority of inner city neighborhoods are poor and our below poverty percentages are fairly high. With a large minority population it is pretty fair to say that a lot of those poor, inner city people will be black.

It's also pretty fair to say that I see children outside who think that guns, gangs and drugs are more fun than school, church or family. Your house gets 'tagged', music at all hours, fights in the streets, male and female, though males are more apt to have a gun. Mothers are in the streets urging their daughters to beat they azz'z, little kids will tell you they can do what they want to your face.

So who's to say she didn't grow up this way? Underprivileged, under educated, under-paid, decades use of the welfare system, drug abuse and Lord knows what goes on in gangs. Even if most try to get out of that life and better themselves they are so called 'blacklisted' 'uncle toms' 'sell outs' Is it any wonder our youth is so different than we were? That doesn't excuse, in any form, fashion or way, to use the race card, but it explains why perhaps they may have thought of it. Add in that dummy Nifong, and those like him, that just don't get it and use people for his own ends and you'll see this repeated time and again.

Then again, who's to say it's not a race card and it was the first sure fire way they could think of to get police out there?

And yes, we are wanting to move. And no, we can't afford to right now. We are involved in a project that has us tied up in them buying houses and such right now...been three years and I dream of not living here. I love my city but there are only a few shining beacons of racial togetherness.
 
Hello.


This case reminds me too much of Tawana Brawley. Therefore, I did a bit of research and found the Grand Jury Report in the Brawley case. Below is a small part of that report that I found very interesting and pertinent to this case.

"Dr. Griffith then considered the evidence in light of what are considered the characteristics of false allegations of sexual assault. He evaluated the evidence anew to see if it formed a pattern consistent with the patterns known in cases of false allegations. Dr. Griffith testified regarding the following characteristics of false allegation cases and their applicability to this case.

In false allegation cases, he noted, it is likely that the complainant claims not to know the identity of the offender. There also tend to be multiple assailants alleged, psychologically allowing the person to show that resistance was impossible. The person also may claim to have been overcome by force and to have no memory of the details of the assault. Often, the place of the assault cannot be described. Dr. Griffith found all these elements present in this case. False allegations tend to be either very vague or extremely detailed. Here he found marked vagueness."

In false allegations, he continued, there may be non-severe wounds. Here the wounds are non-existent, in spite of a claim of being assaulted by several individuals. There also tends to be indifference to the wounds, as here where Ms. Brawley refused an offer of physical therapy. "

Individuals who make false allegations often have numerous personal and relationship problems. Dr. Griffith believed there is evidence of that here. In false allegations, the individual may know of other cases of false allegations. Here, the evidence is not clear. /5 Another factor sometimes present in false allegation cases is a previous psychiatric history. There is no evidence of that in this case. In false allegations, the individual is often uncooperative with the authorities since the individual does not want the experience elucidated. The report may be to friends and not to the police. Dr. Griffith cautioned that the presence of any one characteristic of a false allegation is not enough to determine that a complaint is in fact a false allegation. He stressed that one must consider the totality of the characteristics. It is the totality of characteristics, considered along with the lack of corrobation of the original complaint and along with the medical evidence which does not show an actual disorder, that points toward the likelihood of a false allegation."

and this, by Dr. Park Dietz:

"Dr. Dietz considered the phenomenon of false allegations of sexual assaults in relation to this case. He explained that false allegations of sexual assault are designed by the complainant to solve some predicament. The false allegation shifts the responsibility for the predicament from the complainant to someone else. It also shifts responsibility for solving the predicament to someone else, frequently the police. Not all false allegations are complete fabrications. Sometimes a real sexual assault is described differently or exaggerated."

"Dr. Dietz believes, based on his own research and his consultation with FBI Supervisory Special Agent Robert R. Hazelwood, the leading authority on false allegations in Dr. Dietz's view, that there are 20 characteristics that have appeared in false allegation cases:


- The story tends to be bizarre or sensational;

- The pseudo-victim injures herself, sometimes seriously, or simulates injury for the purpose of gaining support;

- The pseudo-victim presents herself in such a way that people believe no one would do this to herself;

-The pseudo-victim does not initially report the incident to police;

-A stranger is accused;

-The pseudo-victim claims that overwhelming force was used or that she resisted greatly or that there were multiple assailants;

-The account is either overly detailed or very vague; The pseudo-victim reports having her eyes closed during the attack or that she was unconscious, or passed out, or has no memory of what happened or was drugged, and so cannot provide details;

-The pseudo-victim is indifferent to her injuries; The expected laboratory findings are absent;

-The pseudo-victim is vague about the location of the assault or there is no evidence at the scene to corroborate the complaint;

-Damage to the clothing is inconsistent with the injuries;

-There are escalating personal problems in the life of the pseudo-victim;

-The pseudo-victim has been exposed in the past to accounts of similar things;

-The pseudo-victim's post-assault behavior is inconsistent with the allegations;

-The pseudo-victim is uncooperative with the investigation;

-When the pseudo-victim talks to the authorities, she tends to steer the conversation away from the specific to the unprovable;

-There is writing on the body of the pseudo-victim;

-There is a history of making other false allegations; -There is a history of extensive medical care."
 
BhamMama said:
Like has been stated before, we have no idea of their upbringing so we don't know about neighborhoods they lived in etc.

But I can tell you from my experience of living in a city (metro area only) that is 73.5% Black and 24.1% White, that if somone starts yelling racial slurs, either way, you pick up your kids and go in the house. If you can't do that, drive to a police station, if you can't do that, call 911 just in case shots get fired. I've personally seen a guy get out of a car and walk down the street with a sawed off shotgun, then I ran and laid down in the floor.
There are lots of gangs here and they move their 'territories' around it seems. These are Black, White and Hispanic gangs involved. Alabama had the third-highest number of arrests in a national two-week sweep of criminal Latino gangs, the largest of which is MS-13. We also have a large Neo Confederate gang running around.

Now this doesn't happen in everyones neighborhood, but I can't afford to live in theirs, so live here instead. I'm also not stating that this is just black neighborhoods, mine is pretty diverse. But the facts remain that the majority of inner city neighborhoods are poor and our below poverty percentages are fairly high. With a large minority population it is pretty fair to say that a lot of those poor, inner city people will be black.

It's also pretty fair to say that I see children outside who think that guns, gangs and drugs are more fun than school, church or family. Your house gets 'tagged', music at all hours, fights in the streets, male and female, though males are more apt to have a gun. Mothers are in the streets urging their daughters to beat they azz'z, little kids will tell you they can do what they want to your face.

So who's to say she didn't grow up this way? Underprivileged, under educated, under-paid, decades use of the welfare system, drug abuse and Lord knows what goes on in gangs. Even if most try to get out of that life and better themselves they are so called 'blacklisted' 'uncle toms' 'sell outs' Is it any wonder our youth is so different than we were? That doesn't excuse, in any form, fashion or way, to use the race card, but it explains why perhaps they may have thought of it. Add in that dummy Nifong, and those like him, that just don't get it and use people for his own ends and you'll see this repeated time and again.

Then again, who's to say it's not a race card and it was the first sure fire way they could think of to get police out there?

And yes, we are wanting to move. And no, we can't afford to right now. We are involved in a project that has us tied up in them buying houses and such right now...been three years and I dream of not living here. I love my city but there are only a few shining beacons of racial togetherness.

Her upbringing matters not. That is, unless she is indicted for making false accusations (fat chance), and needs to victimize herself, yet again, by blaming her surroundings and parents.

What matters is this: Can Nifong can get a conviction with the evidence available to him? He can.

Other than Bakersfield, Ca. and a few other counties in America, the State would not have a chance for conviction. But in Durham, Nifong would have excellent odds, because, given that the defendant(s) would be white, a jury there would almost assuredly be heavily weighted with black citizens. And jury decisions are heavily influenced by race there.

Yes, race matters. And in Durham, it matters a ton.

Of course, pre 1970, white juries convicted many innocent blacks. Payback was inevitable. And around we go.

Race based verdicts should not be a surprise to anyone with a sense for America today. Race plays heavily everywhere. That's just fact. And in Durham, this truism is magnified manyfold.

Illuminating the underside of things, Durham's demographics reflects a community of heavily educated citizens, which includes many Duke, U of North Carolina and Wake Forest graduates. However, basically, the highly educated demographic is not chosen to sit on juries. For the prosecutors office there knows that if you have a white defendant(s), you pick black jurors with the lowest education level possible, and vice-versa.

Should anyone think I am joshing (lived in the RTP area, well know this to be true), just examine the courtroom make-up of the Michael Peterson murder trial. To wit, black jurors had ten seats, and the Judge was black as well.

Next, examine the education level of those jurors. You will find that in a community that is a bastion of higher education, and that has a huge, well-to-do contingent of highly educated people, none of those jurors had a college degree, not one.

As regards the most basic of demographics, Durham is 45% black. However, in the Peterson trial, black jury representation was near twice that and colege level education was zip.

Anyone think that was an accident?

Anyone think this jury representation was an abnormality there?

It's just the way it is in Durham.

Plus, prosecutors in NC consider putting innocent people in prison to be sport. Durham is no exception.

Should this "investigation" proceed to trial, a venue challenge would be certain . The player(s) better start praying that if this goes to trial, it is granted.
 
Wudge, good post for the most part, but there's NO WAY he'll get a conviction, even if the judge doesn't chew his butt off before he/she throws this case out of the courtroom. Her prior false accusations WILL be admitted as it stands right now because there is no evidence. This case will be a they said/she said case and with one defendant having a pretty air tight alibi and the very strong possibility that the photo line up will be inadmissible because they failed to include others that were there, but NOT members of the team. We may hear of other "evidence" that the D.A. has, but as it stands right now, there is a MAJOR amount of exculpatory evidence on behalf of one of the defendants and that will lead to reasonable doubt and that's all the defense attorneys need. And, while I'm talking about defense attorneys, let's just say that they'll be among the best available and way out of the league of this prosecutor, who so far, is making me cringe.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
Wudge, good post for the most part, but there's NO WAY he'll get a conviction, even if the judge doesn't chew his butt off before he/she throws this case out of the courtroom. Her prior false accusations WILL be admitted as it stands right now because there is no evidence. This case will be a they said/she said case and with one defendant having a pretty air tight alibi and the very strong possibility that the photo line up will be inadmissible because they failed to include others that were there, but NOT members of the team. We may hear of other "evidence" that the D.A. has, but as it stands right now, there is a MAJOR amount of exculpatory evidence on behalf of one of the defendants and that will lead to reasonable doubt and that's all the defense attorneys need. And, while I'm talking about defense attorneys, let's just say that they'll be among the best available and way out of the league of this prosecutor, who so far, is making me cringe.


You do not know what NC prosecutors, Durham itself, and the system of jurisprudence (true joke) is capable of there. I do.

With the right jury composite there, anything goes. In this case, the State would target uneducated, middle-aged, black women. The jury pool would be over represented with that demographic.

The Durham's D.A. office knows how to get a conviction with slim, much less dispositive, evidence of guilt. Do you think the defense has a say in the jury pool that is invited in to for voir dire? Prosecutors in NC are masters at stacking the deck. It's a bare knuckle fight all the way.

Taken en masse, NC has the most corrupt D.A.'s anywhere. All is considered fair game there, including withholding the purset form of exonerating evidence so as to obtain a death sentence conviction.

Convict a few young men from Duke for an alleged rape, that is hero material for a NC D.A..

Look at the former Durham D.A., Jim Harden. That moron was too incompetent to even vet his own expert witness, yet he got a murder conviction in the Peterson trial. How did he do it? Controlling the jury composite, that's how.

Nothing that takes place in a NC courtroom surprises me, nothing.

By the way, do you know what they call incompetent and/or crooked D.A.'s in NC?

"Your Honor".
 
Jim Harden did a wonderful job as a prosecutor and Peterson deserved what he got for murdering his wife. Hopefully, he'll be a judge one day. :D
 
Wudge said:
You do not know what NC prosecutors, Durham itself, and the system of jurisprudence (true joke) is capable of there. I do.

With the right jury composite there, anything goes. In this case, the State would target uneducated, middle-aged, black women. The jury pool would be over represented with that demographic.

The Durham's D.A. office knows how to get a conviction with slim, much less dispositive, evidence of guilt. Do you think the defense has a say in the jury pool that is invited in to for voir dire? Prosecutors in NC are masters at stacking the deck. It's a bare knuckle fight all the way.

Taken en masse, NC has the most corrupt D.A.'s anywhere. All is considered fair game there, including withholding the purset form of exonerating evidence so as to obtain a death sentence conviction.

Convict a few young men from Duke for an alleged rape, that is hero material for a NC D.A..

Look at the former Durham D.A., Jim Harden. That moron was too incompetent to even vet his own expert witness, yet he got a murder conviction in the Peterson trial. How did he do it? Controlling the jury composite, that's how.

Nothing that takes place in a NC courtroom surprises me, nothing.

By the way, do you know what they call incompetent and/or crooked D.A.'s in NC?

"Your Honor".
The change of venue is very likely.
 
BillyGoatGruff said:
The change of venue is very likely.
I hope so. Aren't these young men entitled to be judged by a jury of their peers?? Are uneducated, middle-age black women considered their peers??
 
nanandjim said:
I hope so. Aren't these young men entitled to be judged by a jury of their peers?? Are uneducated, middle-age black women considered their peers??


No, darlin they're not. An "impartial jury" is all they're entitled to. :blowkiss:
 
Wow!! Excellent and thought-provoking posts by all of you.
Thank you Christine for the quotes by Dr. Michael Baden that I was looking for. I'd be interested to see the actual medical report as well as results of any toxicology work done.

Thank you also for the insight into living in the inner city BhamMama. My son is a police officer in a large city, worst part of town and he relates the same type of conditions there as you mentioned. He blames it on a variety of things but mainly a breakdown of the family and values in that sector of society. While the background of many criminals may be unfortunate it shouldn't give people a life-long free pass to make bad decisions and escape consequences for them. I think society has enabled alot of this to go on by being soft on crime. Instead of bad behavior being nipped in the bud when the first petty crime is committed there usually are little to no consequences and things escalate as criminals are given a free pass. I think in this case we've seen that on both sides. The college students and the dancer.

Dalilah EXCELLENT research on the Tawana Brawley case with the expert's comments on false rape accusations. Very thought provoking and interesting as it relates to this case.

And Wudge, appreciation for the inside story to justice in the NC court system. I think you are not alone in this but it is happening in many cities and states across the country. I started becoming interesting in the court system during the OJ trial. I watched every second of that trial and was shocked at the breakdown of the system in that case. Since then I have continued to be surprised and disappointed with our judicial system and what has occurred. Because of this I have a very glass half-empty type of attitude towards it. Unlike Jeana I have little faith in many of the judges in this country.

As much as I'd like to hope that justice will prevail in this case and the truth will come out I think that in reality, we seldom find the truth in most cases. We still really don't know what happened in the Peterson case, or the OJ case. Unless there is a full confession, which doesn't often happen, we never really find out the whole truth of what happened. Very frustrating for us Websleuthers!!

Sherlockmom
 
Sherlockmom said:
And Wudge, appreciation for the inside story to justice in the NC court system. I think you are not alone in this but it is happening in many cities and states across the country. I started becoming interesting in the court system during the OJ trial. I watched every second of that trial and was shocked at the breakdown of the system in that case. Since then I have continued to be surprised and disappointed with our judicial system and what has occurred. Because of this I have a very glass half-empty type of attitude towards it. Unlike Jeana I have little faith in many of the judges in this country.

Sherlockmom

It is very frustrating. Don't forget, however, that everything the public knows about a case is going to be different from what a jury hears about the case. So, while we're here discussing it and listening to all the legal analysts talk their heads off, the jurors don't know much of that until after the trial. And, while I agree that there have been a few cases, mostly California cases for some reason, that mystify explanation on the part of the court system and the judges, those of us in other parts of the country who don't work with celebrities, or even criminal cases, have a much diffferent view of the court system and the judges that serve civil courts. Even if you take a Judge Ito, the knucklehead of the Simpson case, and study every case he's had and every decision he's made relating to it, you'd probably find that he did a better job than you'd have thought after seeing the Simpson trial.

With regard to the Duke case, we know the prosecutor has problems with his case. We don't know the reputations of the defense counsel or the judge that will preside over the case. That's going to make a huge difference on the flow of the trial and how the case will be handled. I am somewhat surprised that no gag order has been placed on this case yet, so I'm hesitant to say that I have a good feeling yet, but I'm not usually the type of person who can see a lot of reasonable doubt in criminal cases and I see it all over the place with this one.
 
Sherlockmom said:
SNIP

And Wudge, appreciation for the inside story to justice in the NC court system. I think you are not alone in this but it is happening in many cities and states across the country.

SNIP.

Sherlockmom

When it comes to railroading the innocent (railroading in capital cases is a true specialty) via withholding exculpatory or exonerating evidence or through seating a pre-disposed jury, no other state in America can even fathom pulling off once what commonly takes place on a daily basis in NC's courtrooms.

As regards its prosecutorial practices as well as its actual operating "policy", NC is pure Ripleys.

For example, if a prosecutor has exculpatory evidence, are they required to turn it over to the defense"? No. To do so would violate State policy.

I kid you not.

http://www.newsobserver.com/208/story/249929.html

And if a NC prosecutor wants an expert witness to testify in a certain way, what methodology do they practice? Why they treat their expert witness the exact same way that they treat defense lawyers. They withhold relevant facts/evidence from them as well. Thus, by withholding relevant facts, they force or shape the resulting "expert opinion" to fit their storyline.

http://www.newsobserver.com/208/story/255927.html

And if a prosecutor is faced with hearing about, reading about or, in any way, knowing about exonerating evidence, what do they do? Why the practice in NC is to become deaf, dumb and blind to any such evidence. This is known as "willful blindness".

For example, seventeen eye witnesses would exonerate a defendant. So, what is the practice for prosecutors in NC. The practice is simple and standard. They just pretend (claim) that investigators never told them about any such witnesses, and they will claim (pretend) not to have read the files on any such (seventeen) witnesses

http://www.newsobserver.com/210/story/318665.html

This practice of "willful blindness" is also used to obtain indictments in NC. The Duke rape case serves perfectly to illustrate that practice. I reference Nifong's unwilligness to even hear (a prosecutor must be deaf) what exculpatory or exonerating evidence one of the defense attorneys said they had to support their client's innocence.

The bottom line is: NC is not like any other state in our nation. There have been five or six recent murder/capital case reversals that resulted from such heinous prosecutorial practices as I noted above. Let me repeat: capital cases.

Should anyone doubt that a Durham prosecutor would consider all of the above practices, and more, to be fair game in a simple rape case that they have already used to gain re-election. (hah)

Oh, and when a NC review board decides to impose the harshest of penalities to prosecutors who withheld exonerating evidence in a capital case and who also withheld facts from their expert witness so as to shape their opinion, what do prosectutors suffer? Why they get reprimanded and appointed to one of the highest positions in the state legal system.

http://www.newsobserver.com/208/story/244539.html

Summarizing NC's system of jurisprudence: Ripley, eat your heart out.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
Jim Harden did a wonderful job as a prosecutor and Peterson deserved what he got for murdering his wife. Hopefully, he'll be a judge one day. :D


You are not keeping up on current events. Harden was made a Judge.

Next up is a bozo punching bag.
 
Wudge said:
You are not keeping up on current events. Harden was made a Judge.


Well hell, that's terrific!! Thanks for the good news. I try to keep track of my own city's current events, but not so much those of everyone else. I'm happy to know this. He's not going to be the judge on this case by any chance????

:truce: :truce: :truce:
 
>I'm happy to know this. He's not going to be the judge on this case by any chance????<


Wouldn't that be something though? What would be the odds?

Sherlockmom
 
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