Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #3

[DexterMorgan]

The fire would have to burn for hours. So since he never said that xyz had fires burning while everyone is saying that he had fires burning; Seems to suggest a lot imo.

It's not like he was in Vegas for the weekend and wouldn't know of the Burning bondfire that tried to cremate her. Jmo

 

[suzier]

Concluding Reasonable Doubt exists in the prosecution of SA and BD does not a conspiracy theory make.

 

[wagner92]

BBM - interesting ...so your hinky meter goes off about the bleach on the jeans but NOT about there being NO BLOOD anywhere in the messy, dusty, garage - not even when they jack-hammered the concrete floor?

Yes, they cleaned up any blood that was possibly in the garage with the bleach. I don't think the garage was a blood bath really. She may have been killed somewhere else, he may have killed her right in the back of her SUV. Come on, what are the odds with all this other info, last person to see her alive, last person to call her....that's THE night he gets bleach on his jeans cleaning SAs garage? It's just too weird.

 

[MysticJynx]

I'm sure she would have taken the back roads, I would cut the time about 15-20 minutes using the back roads. It is about 35 miles from New Holsten to Two Rivers. You can easily travel 70 on the back roads up there. I'm more familiar with further north from there, I have family further north although my grandmother was born in Two Rivers.

To get 35.5 miles to the supposed first location at 70 miles per hour would be more like 30 mins. To drive that 35.5 miles and get there in 15-20 mins she would have been driving between 110 and 140 miles per hour. Of course this no stopping at stop signs or lights that she may come across along the way back roads or not. Had she been at most going that 70 mph It does help with the timeline I am working on for my own understanding.

And speaking of family..... My grandma was born in Manitowoc. Some of the Earlier generations are buried at Jambo Creek Cemetery Mishicot Wisconsin, and were originally near Francis Creek. Guess what is right in the middle of those locations, Avery Auto Salvage Yard. Weird. However I am not from Wisconsin, and question going in the future.

 

[Safeguard]

I'm not convinced he did it ( not even close ) and I'm not crazy.
Before I put in my two pennies, I condone NO criminal activity whatsoever. AND, I am a LOVER of ALL animals. ( 3 cats, 2 dogs, 2 rats, 1 Bearded Dragon, 2 Ball Pythons, 1 Boa, 1 Turtle. Very large house ) I have rescued cats since I was small. I would use my allowance money to walk to the corner store, buy cans of cat food and piss off the neighbors. I would randomly set it out on decks for the strays. I would constantly hear " Don't leave it here! We don't want those cats thinking they live HERE! "

He has owned up to and admitted everything he has done. Maybe not to YOUR standards. OR the public. Maybe he didn't WORD things the way YOU felt he should, or MYSELF. I honestly do not think he has the VOCABULARY to ARTICULATE the way most would like.
I DO think too, He WAS young and we aren't all and weren't all raised the same.
Some folks are prim and proper, some are loud and crazy. Some families, even now days, sex is a taboo topic at age 40 and beyond. Some families ( Ours, our best friends, who are Christian folks on the outside ) can discuss 50 Shades at Thanksgiving dinner. My husband grabs my tampons from the store on a regular basis.
Some families, wouldn't think to swipe their cat with their foot CAREFULLY if it were under their feet in front of them. Or swat their doggie on the behind if he ate their favorite slippers. These acts would be considered cruel.
My Grandma, was raised in the hills of Alabama and one of my girlfriends here in bfe MI.
BOTH of them only know animals as food NOT pets. JUST to slaughter.
My Grandma, especially, has never had compassion toward animals. Ever. I NEVER understood it and always RESENTED her for it, until I got older.
I STILL HATE it, to be honest. I do though, understand it and do not blame her for it.
I remember her giving a " stray " antifreeze once. This affected me for a long time.

A couple of kids I grew up with tortured cats. Kittens. I saw it happen. My mom is the one that called police. Neither of them grew up to be murderers. We were all teens. One put a poor kittie in a pillowcase and smashed it. The other drowned it in a ditch. I can still see it's wet head. It brings me to tears. Sorry. I never wanted to tell that story. Second time I have, though. I'm going to sum it up by saying both of these MONSTER A$$HOLE kids, are productive ( success & happy ) members of society. I must say though, I wonder if that ever bothered them :sigh: It sure does me.

I KNOW SA has been less than compliant. However;
He had an ALTERCATION with Stachowski, he didn't KILL her. He threatened his EX wife, he didn't KILL her. He threatened Sandra Morris, again, he did NOT KILL her.
He indeed has a terrible moral compass and is NOT very smart LACKING in the COMMON SENSE department. This does NOT make someone a MURDERER, it just DOESN'T.
It makes them ignorant, not very compassionate. Based on his reactions before prison likely to have some sort of mental illness/low IQ perhaps? Alcoholism in his late teens early twenties? ( speculating )
THIS way of thinking is part of keeping an OPEN mind. If I would have posted in my 20's I would have been THE MOST NARROWED MINDED person here. I wouldn't have considered HALF the evidence presented because his "past crimes" would have told me everything I needed to know, pffft.
Couple of things. 20, can be quite young and everyone MATURES on their own watch, not ours.
NOT everyone is raised the same. Has the same communication, or coping skills.
Just because SA's father thinks he's an Angel, or has spoken for him in interviews, doesn't mean SA thinks of himself as a gem, or anything of the sort.

I can interpret the Sandra Morris incident just as LE & she describe ( although she is proven to REALLY not like him, AND has had conflicting testimony compared to her deposition ) OR I can keep an open mind, look at both/multiple sides and think " this seems like a case of a young man with very poor communication/coping skills, NO/LOW intelligence, who seems to have been bullied had rumors spread about him in a small town for some time now, and had had enough. He wanted to scare her. Obviously she didn't care that WHAT she was saying, true or not. Then runs to her hubby, a Sheriff.

The " research " conducted on any sociopath behavior, psychopath behavior, animal cruelty, sexual violence and the like is always ongoing. It is never 100% accurate. I really hope everyone realizes this.
These behaviors can be observed, yes.
Take into consideration ( among many, many factors ) the two things that first enter my mind;
The person OBSERVING ( We all, OBVIOUSLY, perceive things differently. ( including behaviors )
The person ( Psychopath/Sociopath/Sexual Deviant ) People DO lie.

Thank you for this thoughtful, intelligent, refreshingly insightful post.

I have a brother who is one of those rare individuals that is accepting of every person he ever meets. Excatly as they are, right where they are, he has no list of qualities one must meet, in order to be considered, "acceptabe". He is so comfortable to be around. He never has a bad word to say about anyone. I, unfortunately, am more judgmental, but I try to be compassionate towards people.

I do agree heartily, with every word you posted. I get the feeling that Steven grew up in extreme emotional and experiential poverty also, in addition to the possible developmental problems that seem to run in this family. That may make him a hard person for some people to "like", but it does NOT make him a killer.

I had (eerily) similar experiences, as those you speak of (so eloquently), as a child, and I can attest to the truth in your words.

 

[Oakland CA]

Lol. I wouldn't snitch on my family member until after they received the 36 million dollars. Lol

But seriously. How can you not notice the burning barrel near your house. Idk. He could be guilty. Jmo

Agreed.

I can't imagine the number of prisons we'd have build to house everyone who "could be guilty"

Heck, we could have a free for all and and convict four, five, six different people of interest for a single crime.

 

[dexter75]

You do make a good point. And me being a open minded chic and all :thinking:
However, I won't jump to the conclusion JUST because a fire was burning, HE automatically should know something.
WE still do not know;
Was she actually burned there? Could she have been cremated somewhere else? Remember the men that were scraping around/kinda with shovels? And I THINK one was on the stand saying things may not have been sifted through properly?
ANYONE???
Was it the norm to have the fire pits burning? And IF TH had been placed in there, say in the evening, could Steve or ANYONE have thrown on a large something or another that needed to be burned, not even knowing her remains were there in the early morning hours meaning the fire would have already been burning when she ( or her bones ) was put in?
Do we KNOW what SA was doing at this time??:detective:

Couple of things to chew on. Anyone??

Recall seeing ST on the stand? First time he was interviewed he said the flames in the burn pit were a certain height, on the stand, his story changed.
I apologize if this has been discussed. Has anyone ever considered IF Branden did see/hear something, that MAYBE he could be covering for his brother or stepdad. Maybe his stepdad threatened to do to Brendans mom what he did to Theresa? If Brendan DID see those remains??
I have NO proof other than Brandens odd behavior.
Tossin it out there.

The fire would have to burn for hours. So since he never said that xyz had fires burning while everyone is saying that he had fires burning; Seems to suggest a lot imo.

It's not like he was in Vegas for the weekend and wouldn't know of the Burning bondfire that tried to cremate her. Jmo

 

[DexterMorgan]

You do make a good point. And me being a open minded chic and all :thinking:
However, I won't jump to the conclusion JUST because a fire was burning, HE automatically should know something.
WE still do not know;
Was she actually burned there? Could she have been cremated somewhere else? Remember the men that were scraping around/kinda with shovels? And I THINK one was on the stand saying things may not have been sifted through properly?
ANYONE???
Was it the norm to have the fire pits burning? And IF TH had been placed in there, say in the evening, could Steve or ANYONE have thrown on a large something or another that needed to be burned, not even knowing her remains were there in the early morning hours meaning the fire would have already been burning when she ( or her bones ) was put in?
Do we KNOW what SA was doing at this time??:detective:

Couple of things to chew on. Anyone??

Recall seeing ST on the stand? First time he was interviewed he said the flames in the burn pit were a certain height, on the stand, his story changed.
I apologize if this has been discussed. Has anyone ever considered IF Branden did see/hear something, that MAYBE he could be covering for his brother or stepdad. Maybe his stepdad threatened to do to Brendans mom what he did to Theresa? If Brendan DID see those remains??
I have NO proof other than Brandens odd behavior.
Tossin it out there.

Lol. I will watch a episode of csi vegas tonight. Particularly a episode dealing with burning bodies. I know they have several cases like that on there. Lol

Now even though it's tv. They sometimes state things that sound plausible from a scientific point of view. Like the degrees needed. Or types of accelerant and time needed, etc.

But in all honesty. SA seems like the scary relative that did 20 years in the penitentiary plus he was expecting millions. So who would be that gutsy in his family to really go through all of that to set him up while he is roaming throughout the property.

He seems like the type of guy that you don't cross unless he is in prison or on his death bed. Jmo.

 

[Jaiddie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH1wJLa9VvI&feature=youtu.be

I decided to post this because I have heard very little from the families involved, aside from the Avery spokes-cousin and Steven's mother, and this is a rap song that Brendan's half-brother, Brad Dassey wrote and recorded for his family in prison. I realize that some will say he is extremely bias because it's his family in question, but I still found it interesting to get a look at the feelings of someone so close in relation to Brendan.

 

[dexter75]

Well, Thank you! I believe we all have reasons we ARE the way we are.( Some more OBVIOUS than others )
I'm not always so thoughtful or intelligent ha ha =) It must come and go in waves
I'm sure you'll see that throughout these posts as I was pretty judgmental, once upon a time.:shame: (

It doesn't do a person any good, and quite frankly, life has a way of teaching each and every one of us lessons.

Being stubborn, set in your ways, whatever name ya want to give it. Takes a lot of energy. Learning and listening are fairly simple.
COMPASSION, is always good:wink: Thanks for the kind words!

In fact, up until THIS case I was 100% FOR Capital Punishment.


If you used Heroin, it was a choice. YOUR choice, until my brother who I love more than anyone is this world, became addicted. I became educated. ( you get the idea )

Knowing there are INNOCENT victims that MUST wait to be exonerated, breaks my heart.

Thank you for this thoughtful, intelligent, refreshingly insightful post.

I have a brother who is one of those rare individuals that is accepting of every person he ever meets. Excatly as they are, right where they are, he has no list of qualities one must meet, in order to be considered, "acceptabe". He is so comfortable to be around. He never has a bad word to say about anyone. I, unfortunately, am more judgmental, but I try to be compassionate towards people.

I do agree heartily, with every word you posted. I get the feeling that Steven grew up in extreme emotional and experiential poverty also, in addition to the possible developmental problems that seem to run in this family. That may make him a hard person for some people to "like", but it does NOT make him a killer.

I had (eerily) similar experiences, as those you speak of (so eloquently), as a child, and I can attest to the truth in your words.

 

[JudyBolton]

Yes, they cleaned up any blood that was possibly in the garage with the bleach. I don't think the garage was a blood bath really. She may have been killed somewhere else, he may have killed her right in the back of her SUV. Come on, what are the odds with all this other info, last person to see her alive, last person to call her....that's THE night he gets bleach on his jeans cleaning SAs garage? It's just too weird.

BBM - we will just have to agree to disagree... I think different things are "weird" and worse than weird - I won't list them all here as they have been listed, discussed, etc. here over and over. No blood bath then? Just a few drops from the bullet? What about cutting her throat - would that have resulted in blood? Or do you not believe B's account of slashing her throat in the bed but you still believe he is guilty? WEIRD

 

[shadowraiths]

The fire would have to burn for hours. So since he never said that xyz had fires burning while everyone is saying that he had fires burning; Seems to suggest a lot imo.

It's not like he was in Vegas for the weekend and wouldn't know of the Burning bondfire that tried to cremate her. Jmo

Not only the fire but the smell? I really don't see how her body was burned that close to the houses and no one noticed. Again, it is the lack of corroborating physical evidence that calls so much into question.

 

[DexterMorgan]

BBM - we will just have to agree to disagree... I think different things are "weird" and worse than weird - I won't list them all here as they have been listed, discussed, etc. here over and over. No blood bath then? Just a few drops from the bullet? What about cutting her throat - would that have resulted in blood? Or do you not believe B's account of slashing her throat in the bed but you still believe he is guilty? WEIRD

I wonder if he thought that the more gore the confession was would be more easier to prove that he was lying

 

[dexter75]

I see your point, again though
WHY did he spent 18 years in prison??

He was expecting MILLIONS, why?

In all honesty, ask yourself these questions. Then ask, who had motive to set him up? To go through all of that roaming the property? Didn't say he HAD to be there, unless I missed something. Sorry if I did =(
Who had motive to want it to be Steve Avery?

Why, in your opinion, is he creepy?
And you wouldn't cross him unless he were locked up or on death row? Why? Cross him how?
I am genuinely curious as he honestly doesn't scare me, and typically, I can call 'em quite good. (dangerous predators/situations)

I've stated I personally think he lacks coping skills. When faced with hi pressure/emotionally intense situations. He lacks the ability to communicate/cope the way you or I might.

Has SA ever had an ASSAULT charge? Or has he just been known to make threats? NOT that it is ok. Just trying to gain more insight.

Lol. I will watch a episode of csi vegas tonight. Particularly a episode dealing with burning bodies. I know they have several cases like that on there. Lol

Now even though it's tv. They sometimes state things that sound plausible from a scientific point of view. Like the degrees needed. Or types of accelerant and time needed, etc.

But in all honesty. SA seems like the scary relative that did 20 years in the penitentiary plus he was expecting millions. So who would be that gutsy in his family to really go through all of that to set him up while he is roaming throughout the property.

He seems like the type of guy that you don't cross unless he is in prison or on his death bed. Jmo.

 

[dexter75]

Was this an entire corpse??? Bones??? What BODY or BODY PARTS have been PROVEN to have BURNED in that PIT???

Not only the fire but the smell? I really don't see how her body was burned that close to the houses and no one noticed. Again, it is the lack of corroborating physical evidence that calls so much into question.

 

[dexter75]

THANK YOU!
Could be
Seems like
Too weird

And to think, " a potential JURY pool "
:scared:

Agreed.

I can't imagine the number of prisons we'd have build to house everyone who "could be guilty"

Heck, we could have a free for all and and convict four, five, six different people of interest for a single crime.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I see your point, again though
WHY did he spent 18 years in prison??

He was expecting MILLIONS, why?

In all honesty, ask yourself these questions. Then ask, who had motive to set him up? To go through all of that roaming the property? Didn't say he HAD to be there, unless I missed something. Sorry if I did =(
Who had motive to want it to be Steve Avery?

Why, in your opinion, is he creepy?
And you wouldn't cross him unless he were locked up or on death row? Why? Cross him how?
I am genuinely curious as he honestly doesn't scare me, and typically, I can call 'em quite good. (dangerous predators/situations)

I've stated I personally think he lacks coping skills. When faced with hi pressure/emotionally intense situations. He lacks the ability to communicate/cope the way you or I might.

Has SA ever had an ASSAULT charge? Or has he just been known to make threats? NOT that it is ok. Just trying to gain more insight.

I just think 18 years in prison would probably make him more aware of his items and property. He would probably notice the smallest things missing or misplaced.

Jmo.

He knew he was framed before. So maybe he felt like he was going to rape someone due to the fact that he was wrongly in prison for rape. Maybe he felt like if he did the time; He might as well do the crime. Idk.

 

[dexter75]

A MILLION times, thank you!!!:loveyou:

Everyone that goes on and on about such things, can't have it BOTH ways! THANK YOU!
This happens all over in regards to this case.:tantrum:

And WE ALL ( if in the US ) have a duty if called as a juror, wow.:scared: Presumption of INNOCENCE???? Not in this case.

:cheers:

There is no "TRUTH" in this case, that is the irony. Let me put it this way, people have aired grievances over the 'biased' presentation of the film, yet these same people do not seem as enraged or outraged by the biased construction of a murderer produced by the Prosecution - however, it cuts both ways. Which is the greater 'evil'? I do not think the film makers want to 'omit' or play down these facts to construct SA's 'innocence' those examples were incessantly and predominantly used to produce the 'Steven Avery is Guilty' narrative.

My reading of this was/is the following - SA's background, history of criminal activity and behaviour is what is should be - IRRELEVANT in the first instance - where was the Presumption of Innocence here?

On the matter of Penny Bernsteen - her opinion does not matter at all. She put the wrong man in jail for 18 years and SA in her own admission was not predatory or aggressive, he asked her for a house - the guy has an average IQ of 70, he may have aspergers, he may have been stressed, depressed and desperate. Who knows, what his mental state could have been. Her 'heebie-jeebies' for SA should be kept to herself, not presented in Interviews which has grave implications for a man she has already sent to jail once. Her feelings towards SA are misguided as her therapists asserts. She can valorise her actual rapist and comment about how he does not make her feel as bad as SA (if this is true), and to that my response is Ted Bundy?

 

[dexter75]

OK. I see.
Just remember, if you are ever selected for Jury duty,
Maybe's and seems like.
"Being framed before", felt like. Probably , Etc. Are NOT reasons/or even EVIDENCE to CONVICT someone of MURDER.
Not at all being disrespectful, just don't see him throwing his life away for a " might as well "

I just think 18 years in prison would probably make him more aware of his items and property. He would probably notice the smallest things missing or misplaced.

Jmo.

He knew he was framed before. So maybe he felt like he was going to rape someone due to the fact that he was wrongly in prison for rape. Maybe he felt like if he did the time; He might as well do the crime. Idk.

 

[DexterMorgan]

A MILLION times, thank you!!!:loveyou:

Everyone that goes on and on about such things, can't have it BOTH ways! THANK YOU!
This happens all over in regards to this case.:tantrum:

And WE ALL ( if in the US ) have a duty if called as a juror, wow.:scared: Presumption of INNOCENCE???? Not in this case.

:cheers:

I'm reposting this because it was meant for this thread.


All defense lawyers should make potential jurors sign up and post on Websleuths for a week.

Just so they can see these people thinking patterns. Jmo.

Because some people don't understand Beyond A Reasonable Doubt. Jmo.

Which somewhat means. If the glove don't fit; You must acquit. Lol

Which in this case is that they all say she was raped and slashed and shot in the house and garage, etc. But the dna or blood spatter in either places doesn't support that gory scenario . Which simply means that in that scenario; The glove doesn't fit.

Now if she was shot 10 times.

Then wheres the missing 8 bullets. Especially since they should have been recovered from the pit or barrels or something. Jmo.

There was definitely reasonable doubt in how the prosecution said it played out in both cases.

So this means that Beyond A Reasonable Doubt for the sake of innocence ; totally went over the jurors heads. Jmo.

Because I would have some doubt with how the prosecution said it played out. I would have rather that they didn't try to make up things and simply stated the facts with a side order of circumstantial.

Jmo