Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #5

[BigCityAccountant]

And whoever asked.... yes I do sleep .... I'm a night owl.... but maybe not so much this week since I have to work Mon/Tues/Thurs ... but I still get to use my phone haha ;-)

It was me, and I was just mucking about, you two made me lol talking about having to feed the fams.

As you can see from both sides of the fence--tensions build up--just trying to bring a little "lightness" to the air. We all have the best intentions that's why we are all here! illowfight2: :gathering: :discuss: :toast:

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Thanks... and yes, my poor hubby just nods and smiles LOL But I was talking to him about my own family and just how I wish my mother, and my grandmother (when she was alive) didn't have to live with those thoughts. It really is awful. I hope that even if her family believes 100% that he is guilty, I hope they have some doubts about how it all happened and they are looking at the other possibilities of how he could have done this with very minimal pain and suffering to TH. (I hope that makes sense? lol)

So sorry for your loss Missy....:tears::tears:

 

[Jaiddie]

Let me first say that I think he is guilty--I have from day one and I will until something proves to me otherwise. But, I think most everyone on this site--knows how I feel and I know how they feel---but we agree to respectfully disagree. I think the most important thing is to keep an open mind. I'm sure many people thought without a doubt those 17 people that KZ exonerated felt the person is prison was absolutely without a doubt the person who committed the crime. I think most people on this site put forth ideas, thoughts, possibilities to bounce them off each other to further their beliefs. (whether that is he is guilty or innocent) I think the ultimate goal for everyone on here is righteousness--and that is to make sure the person who did the crime is punished.

With that being said--how do you know that bullet (evidence) wasn't the most compelling thing that a juror used to convict him? Just because it didn't hold any weight for you doesn't mean it didn't hold any weight a a juror.

My problems with that bullet (evidence) are that the defense team were not allowed access to that testing being done, but it was perfectly fine to have it tested in the presence of students which ultimately ended up leaving it contaminated by the tester. There was then no way for defense to run their own tests for comparison as it was conveniently all used up in that initial testing. Sherry Culhane then testifies herself on the stand, that this is THE ONE AND ONLY TIME that she has ever filed a deviation from protocol, again conveniently. Just some more questions to throw on the MOUNTAIN of questions surrounding that "investigation". EVERYTHING about this case stinks. JMO.

 

[Nocturnal 911]

"Kratz.... he is a pig and to think that his behaviour doesn't have anything to do with this case.... go back and listen to that news conference, if you can stomach it, because I can't. Anyone that comes up with that narrative with absolutely NO PROOF of such happening, is sick IMO (I absolutely believe it was his story that he fed to those detectives before they interviewed BD) He's the biggest douche to come out of this whole thing IMO The way that he used his position to pray on vulnerable women.... picked the one's that wouldn't be good witnesses because they had a checkered past... he's a pig."...............quote

Agreed. Anyone know how much time elapsed between the "confession" & press conference and the date that he must have realized that the bed/rape/handcuff/throat slit story could NOT be backed up by any evidence on scene? Or how many searches had already happened by the date of the press conference? He HAD to of at least known there was no blood soaked bed or blood spattered walls in the bedroom. Why didn't he just WAIT?? MAN I hate that he gave that press conference. Total narcissistic move. Oooooooooooo look at me! Greasy, shiny slimball

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I was just thinking something along these lines.... in GENERAL. We think he's guilty. Some think he's innocent. We can sit back and let KZ do the work for us because we have the verdict we want. You cannot, because the burden has fallen on his supporters. Accused has burden to prove innocence. vs. WE having to prove his guilt. I suppose that was officially "done" (from our perspective), so I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say about our criminal justice system here. I suppose this is the case with any conviction and subsequent appeal. Happens all the time-- but already convicted or not and despite the fact that I feel that he is guilty, I feel your pain. Because I can still agree that he was not given the presumption of innocence. I get irritated with ppl speaking up for him and splitting hairs that don't need splitting-- GUILTY! But please press on and I applaud your efforts. I won't speak for others that think he's guilty on here, but I'd love to be proven wrong if he is innocent. It's not about Steven Avery for me. He effects my life at a rate of zero feks per second. It's about the system. Our rights. That's the biggest thing I took away from this documentary.

P.S. sleep deprived fyi

I think he is guilty and it does affect me--I have family not too far from there. If he is not guilty that means the killer is still out there and a possibility (remotely I would hope) that my family could be affected by this killer--So I think it is prudent to ensure the guilty party is held responsible for the crime and is in prison. That being said--just because many people who have watched the documentary think he is innocent--there is a real possibility this man could be walking the streets again---and if that is true--which I do believe it is--I think us pro-guilty have a vested interest in stopping that. I don't believe for one second that those that thing he is guilty so just sit back and coast on easy street.

LOL..on the sleep deprived!!

 

[Jaiddie]

Ok... I thought I was done after my last post... but it kinda got me going and I was sitting here talking with my hubby.... I really feel sorry for him at this point, because he has to listen to me *sigh*

I think I have figured out one of the reasons why this case really bothers me.... it's that damn Kratz and his "theory". Can you imagine that moment when her mother was sat down and Kratz or whoever told her what they think happened to Teresa? Just stop and think about that for a minute. Can you imagine that her family lives with those thoughts on a daily basis? How that must play out in their minds.... thinking that their daughter was raped and tortured before finally being shot in the head. Let that sink in. Now I'm going to tell you a small secret....

I am the relative of a victim of murder... an excruciatingly gruesome murder (think Canada... high profile... gruesome). This is something that we as a family live with on a daily basis. How I wish that there is a different narrative for "our story", how I wish that there was just a friggen glimmer of hope that it didn't happen the way they say it happened. 99.9% of me knows that there is no other story, but believe me, there is that 0.1% hope that someone someday comes forward and says, nope, we were wrong.

If nothing else comes from this case and this story.... I hope that Teresa's family gets the truth, even if we don't. I hope that they someday get someone come to them and tell them that they were wrong, because even if SA killed her, there is absolutely no evidence of her being raped and stabbed and throat slit and whatever else they made up. It is bad enough that she was murdered and she is gone, but to know that they must play that scenario out in their own minds daily, it's awful, I know this.

So sorry, for your loss, missy.

 

[missy1974]

So sorry for your loss Missy....:tears::tears:

Thanks BCA! I don't want to make this a pity party.... we as a family do not discuss it publicly or really... privately, at least not the details. I was slightly removed from the situation, I was younger, didn't know her well or remember her..... and being the "sleuth" I am, I actually read court documents/police interviews, so my mom didn't have to.

I kind of feel invested in this and I really didn't know why. I mean really.... even if SA is innocent of this murder.... why do I care about SA? If he's guilty... may he rot in jail. It was when I was talking to my hubby that I realized that if I could give a different "story" to make a murder just a little bit less painful to a family member... I would do it in a heartbeat.

On top of that.... the presumption of innocence, and just turning a blind eye to the possibility that evidence was planted, it doesn't help change the system and how cases are handled. I have said before... he can be guilty AND they planted evidence (to make sure he got convicted)

 

[BigCityAccountant]

My problems with that bullet (evidence) are that the defense team were not allowed access to that testing being done, but it was perfectly fine to have it tested in the presence of students which ultimately ended up leaving it contaminated by the tester. There was then no way for defense to run their own tests for comparison as it was conveniently all used up in that initial testing. Sherry Culhane then testifies herself on the stand, that this is THE ONE AND ONLY TIME that she has ever filed a deviation from protocol, again conveniently. Just some more questions to throw on the MOUNTAIN of questions surrounding that "investigation". EVERYTHING about this case stinks. JMO.

I understand how you feel--people are human--people make mistakes--that very well could have been her first mistake--but I think that is only 1 rock on the pile--and its going to take a lot more rocks rolling down the hill for me...

 

[missy1974]

Agreed. Anyone know how much time elapsed between the "confession" & press conference and the date that he must have realized that the bed/rape/handcuff/throat slit story could NOT be backed up by any evidence on scene? Or how many searches had already happened by the date of the press conference? He HAD to of at least known there was no blood soaked bed or blood spattered walls in the bedroom. Why didn't he just WAIT?? MAN I hate that he gave that press conference. Total narcissistic move. Oooooooooooo look at me! Greasy, shiny slimball

When I first started reading your post... I was thinking... wow, weird, same thing I just said... then I seen what you did hahaha

Let's see if we can figure out the dates... I'm sure we have done it somewhere early on.... but I am not going looking for them LOL I have often wondered what happened before they went to talk to Brendan.... did they think their case was weak? were they trying to eliminate that alibi witness for SA?

How do those guys sleep at night knowing what they did to Brendan?

 

[Nocturnal 911]

If the evidence points towards one person then why would LE look elsewhere? JMO

Well for starters it's good police work. I can see the major focus being on him if it was a slam dunk day one-- with NO VIABLE suspects at all elsewhere. But you dot your i's and cross your t's regardless.

In this case the other customer she saw that day was strangely irate w them and denied she was even there. And the ex bf inserting himself, breaking her password, possibly deleting vm's etc.

Add 36 million other reasons to make sure they got it all right. This should have been their most solid investigation to date. Boggles my brain why ICS wasn't set up. Multi-agency coordination BEGS for it!! I WILL NOT however jump to some mass conspiracy theory just because it was not!!

NIMS much??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_Command_System

 

[Jaiddie]

My main beef with the pro-guilt people is that the fact that MCSO had anything to do with that investigation. In all my reading and researching I have been doing I have yet to see ONE person give a legitimate reason for their presence anywhere REMOTELY near there. I have seen many posts that say, " I agree that MCSO shouldn't have been there, BUT there is a mountain of evidence against him." The ONLY explanation for them being there after PUBLICLY recusing themselves, is for nefarious reasons, IMHO. How someone can question their presence there, but then blindly accept all the "evidence" brought forth from that "investigation" defies logic. You cannot say, " They shouldn't have been there, BUT...!" There IS NO BUT!!!! They SHOULDN'T have been there period! They had ALREADY proven what lengths they would go to convict him the first time, hence a $36 million lawsuit they were facing.

 

[missy1974]

Found some dates....

March 1st recorded interview with BD (in the school). I know he had more before this, but it was this interview that allowed them to get a search warrant I believe.

March 2nd Kratz news conference
(I'm not linking it... because it's awful and I only found the date from googling, I didn't verify, so I might be wrong, but it's close)

search warrant March 1st
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3oyz92oaw...davit for Search Warrant on 03-01-06.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7oku5c4ae2qdlya/Exhibit 4 - Search Warrant on 03-01-06.pdf?dl=0 <<< the time on it was 4:02 pm.. that was pretty quick after BD's interview, wasn't it?

This is what they took from the trailer/garage, dated March 3rd.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vsj2bfiyyoe60go/Exhibit 5 - Return of Officer on 03-03-06.pdf?dl=0

lab report dated March 31, 2006
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Steven-Avery-Trial-Exhibit-313.pdf
May have been collected on March 1st? hard to tell. Some of the items I'm pretty sure went in the first searches.

this lab report is dated May 8th, 2006
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Steven-Avery-Trial-Exhibit-314.pdf
it does have some of the things that were taken from the trailer from that search warrant.

I think it is pretty clear that Kratz had absolutely no evidence to back up his story, or BD's. IMO

 

[BigCityAccountant]

My main beef with the pro-guilt people is that the fact that MCSO had anything to do with that investigation. In all my reading and researching I have been doing I have yet to see ONE person give a legitimate reason for their presence anywhere REMOTELY near there. I have seen many posts that say, " I agree that MCSO shouldn't have been there, BUT there is a mountain of evidence against him." The ONLY explanation for them being there after PUBLICLY recusing themselves, is for nefarious reasons, IMHO. How someone can question their presence there, but then blindly accept all the "evidence" brought forth from that "investigation" defies logic. You cannot say, " They shouldn't have been there, BUT...!" There IS NO BUT!!!! They SHOULDN'T have been there period! They had ALREADY proven what lengths they would go to convict him the first time, hence a $36 million lawsuit they were facing.

To me--my momma used to say--there is no use crying over spilled milk---we can't change what happened in the past--should there be some reform up there--that is very well possible--will it happen---possibly and hopefully.

What is most important to me is that if SA is guilty he is behind bars---if he is not--then lets find who killed her and put him/her/them behind bars and may justice be served-and that the memory of that beautiful girl is never forgotten.

 

[Nocturnal 911]

Yikes! That stinks about your family.. Was only saying that I don't feel like I have to actively do anything but watch. I believe he's guilty. He's behind bars.

Vested interest is correct, but what can we do to stop this train? I guess a benefit that I hadn't thought of much of--- if he's found to be innocent somehow by KZ? Our Nancy Drew's on here will certainly have done a ton of leg work in finding whomever DID do it.

Obv doesn't cross my mind much because I believe that they have the right man already.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Please keep in mind some of the pro-guilty people could very well be friends or family of TH---remember raw emotions sometimes come out---try to understand their point of view---try to respectfully disagree. I'm not saying that anyone on here is a family member or friend--but please try to keep that in mind when you are posting.

 

[missy1974]

Please keep in mind some of the pro-guilty people could very well be friends or family of TH---remember raw emotions sometimes come out---try to understand their point of view---try to respectfully disagree. I'm not saying that anyone on here is a family member or friend--but please try to keep that in mind when you are posting.

For the most part BCA, we do respectfully disagree... we try to provide links, testimony, etc. And I totally get what you mean. However, when it is clear that some believe that he is guilty because of what they were fed pre-trial, or because he was convicted, or believing statements that are not true and have been proven to not be true, and there is just no budging... it's really hard LOL But we will keep trying.... LOL The same can be said about the one's that believe he is innocent because they watched a documentary and signed a petition... Gotta do your homework. Be willing to discuss it

I'm not talking just here either. You should see some of the theories out there.... our tin foil hats are much smaller compared to theirs LOL

 

[Nocturnal 911]

I will dig around later and see if I can figure out some dates. In the interest of her family ALONE he should have delayed that press conference
-or at least skipped the B-movie dramatics and gory "LOOK HOW AWESOME I AMMMM!!" details.

I wouldn't be surprised if ZERO time elapsed between the "confession" and the press conference.
I wouldn't be surprised if his chair back at the office still had his arse impression in it and was still steaming while he was already doing a mic check in front of his audience.

Just wondering if he:
A. Realizes he spoke to soon? He SAYS he regrets the press conference. BUT WHY??????
B. KNEW there was no evidence to back it all up and just didn't care-- it was after-all his moment to SHINE Bizznitches!
C. Still thinks it all happened the same way to this day and doesn't CARE about lack of evidence?

When he realized no evidence of THAT story was not supported (other than cuffs) did he have Brandon dragged back out of his cage for a re-write?
I doubt he FED all those details to him thru the officers interrogating him---- knowing it would be ruled out on scene?

Anyhoo----Will let you know what I come up with when I do. I have REAL, paid police work.
My job is REALLY starting to interfere with my hobbies here!!!

 

[Jaiddie]

To me--my momma used to say--there is no use crying over spilled milk---we can't change what happened in the past--should there be some reform up there--that is very well possible--will it happen---possibly and hopefully.

What is most important to me is that if SA is guilty he is behind bars---if he is not--then lets find who killed her and put him/her/them behind bars and may justice be served-and that the memory of that beautiful girl is never forgotten.

I agree with you COMPLETELY on this, but I have a legitimate fear that we, and more importantly her family, may NEVER find out what happened to that poor girl. I am no longer as concerned about SA and his guilt or innocence now because he has Zellner looking for the truth of that aspect of the case. But this is 10 years down the line now, and while KZ is hard at work looking for PROOF of SA's innocence it is not her job to find out who actually committed the murder. That was on LE back then to do that and they did not care about TH then.

After 10 years, and all of the shadiness going on in that investigation back then, I truly feel that the victim, and also people such as yourself, BCA, who live in close proximity of this crime may never be able to feel closure about what really happened back then to Teresa Halbach. I can only hope that if SA is truly innocent of this crime, and it is proven, that they are able to also prove that someone such as that Martinez guy did it, who are at least in prison for other crimes they have committed and not still walking the streets and that no one else has lost their lives due to the extreme negligence and tunnel-vision of MCSO.

 

[Nocturnal 911]

My main beef with the pro-guilt people is that the fact that MCSO had anything to do with that investigation. In all my reading and researching I have been doing I have yet to see ONE person give a legitimate reason for their presence anywhere REMOTELY near there. I have seen many posts that say, " I agree that MCSO shouldn't have been there, BUT there is a mountain of evidence against him." The ONLY explanation for them being there after PUBLICLY recusing themselves, is for nefarious reasons, IMHO. How someone can question their presence there, but then blindly accept all the "evidence" brought forth from that "investigation" defies logic. You cannot say, " They shouldn't have been there, BUT...!" There IS NO BUT!!!! They SHOULDN'T have been there period! They had ALREADY proven what lengths they would go to convict him the first time, hence a $36 million lawsuit they were facing.

Perhaps none of the pro-guilt people:
A HAVE a legitimate reason, because there is none
B. Don't need bullet OR key-chain to convict him. The mountain is big enough without Cop#1 & Cop#2 input
C. Don't need to throw baby out with the bath water because of two potentially smelly turds in the water. They were there-- NOT in command of everything. They can't alter FBI reports, be in 16 places at once, tow cars, whilst dismembering bodies, burning them, scattering bones, tainting witnesses, or every other thing that points to guilt that the "he's innocent!!" ppl want to throw on THEM. Two officers on scene when they SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN does NOT erase the good police work of all of the other police officers on scene and off. Blame Krantz for his poop. Blame Brandon's interrogators for their end. Your assuming we accept ALL evidence.

THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE, BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT TONS OF REALLY GOOD POLICE OFFICERS AND HIGHER RANKING, SOLID, MORALLY & ETHICALLY STRAIGHT ONES WERE.

Do you want to start a new thread discussing the odds of EVERY POLICE OFFICER, EVERY LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL, MEMBER OF THE CLERKS OFFICE, COURTHOUSE, COMMUNICATION PERSONNEL & OUTSIDE AGENCY BROUGHT IN BEING CORRUPT because perhaps one or two officers coughed, tripped and OOPS! dropped a key-chain "accidentally"?

See previous posts about "calling plates in day before" allegations. Don't believe everything a film student/producer feeds you on TV.

 

[missy1974]

THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE, BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT TONS OF REALLY GOOD POLICE OFFICERS AND HIGHER RANKING, SOLID, MORALLY & ETHICALLY STRAIGHT ONES WERE.

This here.... that actually may be the only way we do find out what happened on an investigative level. A few times when I read the testimony and documents I have that "huh" thought at something an officer/lab person says. (I will take more note of these from now on lol)

Like Ertl emailing Fassbender saying I didn't take photo's of the fire pit because it was KNOWINGLY ALTERED when he got there and he doesn't take photo's of altered scenes.

So I agree... There are lots of good apples in that bunch of maybe a few (or one?) rotten one's. I don't have a very favourable view of Fassbender/Wiegert though either... they are the one's that headed up the investigation... and they were the one's that interviewed Brendan and IMO got a false confession.