Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #5

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missy1974 said:
I don't even think it took a handful of cops to plant any evidence.... Maybe it was just Thing 1 and Thing 2... maybe it was just Thing 2 LOL I think it could have taken 1 or 2... and then it just takes incompetence from there... which seemed to be contagious in that county IMO Add in a bit of turning a blind eye to the "bad cop" beside you, that's all it took in this case IMO Even denying the coroner at the crime scene... they can't even argue that they didn't know the protocol... why? ... because she was literally on the scene telling them to let her in because it was protocol, but they didn't let her in... and didn't call anyone else.

What evidence was found by MCSD? It's too early in the morning to go investigating, but I think it was the majority of any "damning" evidence.

Calumet County investigators interviewed BD... maybe at the direction of Kratz... but they are still responsible for THAT! Fassbender/Wiegert were in charge of the investigation, maybe they were just incompetent... maybe they just didn't care that MCSD was there? I don't know... but they didn't do a good job IMO

The FBI... they did nothing at the scene IIRC, they did try to extract DNA from the bones, but were no more successful than Culhane. Other than that the FBI did that EDTA test.... that rushed one, the one that they said would take months but instead they finished in a few weeks... yep that one. I don't think the FBI had any other involvement? I could be wrong.

Dr. Eisenberg... the anthropologist... I'm not sure who she worked for? But it doesn't really matter because she wasn't on the scene either.
Click to expand...
Did I read something from KZ's camp that the FBI testing that was done (resurrected for the trial and questionable) is now something they can re-test properly now?
 
btw ... MY OPINION of the letter that SA wrote and Zellner posted this morning.... she dictated to him what to write. No way would she post a random note from SA that she didn't have every intention of posting on twitter.
 
Nocturnal 911 said:
Did I read something from KZ's camp that the FBI testing that was done (resurrected for the trial and questionable) is now something they can re-test properly now?
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I am not sure Nocturnal.... I don't know if the EDTA detection test has even been used again LOL

I think Zellner has said that forensic testing has advanced over the last 10 years and she intends on having everything retested and things tested that should have the first time. She even bought a RAV4 exactly like TH's so she can better understand it all.
 
Why are pictures of the RAV 4 posted in this thread????:eek:fftopic:

--->>> RAV 4
 
Well, It is nice to meet you pittie! :)

Since I have family further north of there...I hear a lot of things going on up there and especially further north of there....There is a high rate of Heroin use and Meth use up there. I think Marinette County just got a grant to clean up meth houses or at least they were trying to. Rightfully or un-rightfully--I chalk up Martinez actions to substance abuse. I don't put much weight into BJ's meeting with him--I actually find it ironic that the timing of her admitting to that meeting was around the same time the doc-u-series came out.

I'm with you on the follow any angle a tiny bit...that is what I'm doing as well! :) So we have a common goal! :) I agree the path leads me to SA or somebody on the property as well....or multiple people....I just don't think BrD was involved--but I do think he "heard" about it through someone talking about it--whether they knew he was within ear shot or not.

...and...we love to hear your thoughts...so don't be shy about participating more. :):)
 
missy1974 said:
Have you read it? because it does reference different reports... with page numbers. So no... SA didn't just pull these claims out of his or his lawyers a$$.

Martinez made some pretty odd statements after he was arrested.... just charge me for her murder... claiming that he and SA weren't friends... then that they were BFF's and SA told him everything.
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Yep...
 
pleasestandby said:
Not to mention that Lenk's testimony about when he was at the TH auto crime scene didn't line up with the log.

This would be the first time in the history of law enforcement where one law enforcement agency was ordered to keep an eye on another law enforcement agency in an investigation because of conflict of interest, mistrust, etc.

They knew full well that the other agency was flat out corrupt based on SA being framed the first time.

It's unheard of in the annals of crime investigations for one LE agency to babysit another.
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I was TOTALLY presuming that, but does make you wonder if Calumet guys didn't initiate it to CYA (their). I mean, the car is found and everything blew up. It goes down quickly, getting organized takes time. Not sure who had the "incident command" position on scene at the salvage yard? But maybe that model wasn't put in place and that's why things got so messy? Too many cooks in the kitchen? I want to make it clear that I'm not bashing the entire dept., from either county. Disorganization and lack of preparedness is the devil, and unfortunately hindsight is 20/20.

But yeah, how about him getting busted on the stand with THAT discrepancy. I honestly have zero explanation for that. How do you confuse your on scene time? Wasn;t it like HOURS- like significant difference?? smh
 
Nocturnal 911 said:
It came out years later right? There wasn't any unidentifiable male DNA in this case, right? So from LE perspective- if Avery's blood was there??? Why? It's not like they could have interviewed him at the time if he hadn't yet claimed the murder. And once Avery was convicted I'm sure his statements got filed in the looney bin.
Bet someone will look into it now!
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I think there was in the quarry... unidentified male dna. This is 1 of the 3 spots human bones were found, the pelvic bones that the athropologist was pretty certain they were human, but unfortunately could not be 100% and no DNA from those bones. Not sure about the RAV4, I think there was partial profiles that didn't match any "knowns". There were fingerprints that didn't match SA or any standards the lab had.... in the Kratz letter to SA that Zellner tweeted.... Kratz mentions SA asking him if he has matched those prints yet.

I wonder if Martinez's DNA was in the "system" back then... although, I think the lab only tested DNA/fingerprints to the standards that they were told too, TH, SA, Avery family members. I don't think any of them were run through a database or whatever.
 
Ms. Bessie--how come you are not commenting on this case??

You have awesome insights!
 
I've been thinking of the judge's statement that SA was probably the most dangerous man to ever step foot in his courtroom. Really? On what grounds? More dangerous than Martinez, the would-be axe murderer? Because SA killed a cat 20 years ago? (Let's discuss what Martinez did to the poor dog, not to mention the child.) Because he went after his cousin with an unloaded rifle, also 20 years prior? And even if SA killed her, there is no evidence, truly of how or why he killed her. The discussion about Zipperer accidentally shooting her, or his dog attacking her, etc...brings up the same question for SA. Perhaps there was an accident and he got scared and covered it up because he was afraid of being framed. Maybe he accidentally ran her over and covered it up. Who knows? We have no idea if a rape was involved, or an argument, or what. So yes, you have what you believe to be a killer before you. But what was his frame of reference to state that SA was a more dangerous killer than anyone else ever? That's a huge leap. Did the judge see Kratz's presser and go from that? Did he believe the whole BD story? Rape wasn't even a part of the case! Torture wasn't part of the case. There is no evidence to suggest that this murder was more horrendous than any other. Of course, murder is the worst thing ever, but to torture and rape someone makes the charges that much more aggravating of a crime, i.e. aggravated murder. I just can't get past it. Especially, considering what was done to him before. Would there be any thought that perhaps the system made him this way? That sitting in prison for a crime he didn't commit perhaps messed with his head and that perhaps the system was at least partially responsible for what he became? Did they themselves "Make a Murderer??"
 
I want to say something. I believe in Kathleen Zellner. She states that SA is 100% innocent. She doesn't take cases where she isn't sure. If she says he is innocent, I believe her. She has freed 17 people. Ryan Ferguson was a travesty of justice till she came along. She also got another guy, Mario Casciaroio out from right near me, another horrible case. She is now working on Melissa Calusinski, another horrible situation where it has been recently revealed that there never even was a murder! Her family lives in the subdivision behind ours and a friend of mine worked at the day care facility at the time and said right away it was not true. But they got her to confess.

I can't wait for her to blow this case wide open. And when she does, it will tear the lid off of our justice system. All of these people who say that a person must be guilty because they were convicted, cannot stand on that alone. Not when it has happened TWICE to the same person. And brought down another innocent person right along with him. Sure, our system is the best around, but it sure needs help.
 
That sitting in prison for a crime he didn't commit perhaps messed with his head and that perhaps the system was at least partially responsible for what he became? Did they themselves "Make a Murderer??".

Good post.

Everyone is responsible for themselves- and I guess that's the reason for the title of the doco- doing serious jail time for something he didn't do made him do what he did.
It's possible.
He was convicted of a rape he didnt commit, and then his ex wife let him down, Jodi let him down... it's not hard to see he could have held a grudge against women.

No wait, Jodi was after the fact, he was already in jail when she dumped him. whoops sorry everyone, I dont want to confuse anyone.!
 
missy1974 said:
What evidence was found by MCSD? It's too early in the morning to go investigating, but I think it was the majority of any "damning" evidence.

.
Click to expand...

Excerpt from "DEFENDANT'S STATEMENT ON PLANTED BLOOD"

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/keydocuments/

1/12/2007 26 pages
DEFENDANT'S STATEMENT ON PLANTED BLOOD

“Avery has announced
from the beginning of this case, or before, that he was being framed. It is his core
defense' The Manitowoc County sheriff's Department was invoived in 19g5 in his
wrongful conviction and imprisonment, and he was suing that deparlment and the
county for millions when this case arose within the jurisdiction of the Manitowoc
County sheriff's Department. Notwithstanding a purported recusal of that
deparfment, officers of the Manitowoc County sheriff's Department were present
(5)
wnen every significant piece of evidence against Avery - including the Toyota
RAV-4 was recovered, and in most cases, Manitowoc County sheriff,s
Department officers were the ones who actually claimed to find the evidence. The
availability of a vial of Avery's blood to the Manitowoc County sheriff,s
Department' indeed to the general public, can be shown smoothly and with a short,
logical succession of steps. The blood was unsecured and unsealed in the Clerk of
Court's office in the courthouse; the sheriff's Department has access by master key
to that clerk's office,l including the location where the blood sau and there was at the
relevant time no log or other means of recording who handled the file. Indeed, at
least one Manitowoc County sheriff's Department emproyee with a crucial role in
this case (and whose actions had been questioned in his deposition in Avery,s civil
case less than three weeks before Teresa Halbach disappeared) was involved in
septembet 2002 in transmitting to the Crime Laboratory some evidence from the
same court file at issue now. That is Lt. James Lenk.
There is no waste of time, no confusion of issues, and no unfair
prejudice that "substantialiy" outweighs the probative value of the planting”

**The State's response clarified that THEY didn't find it----
but the log contained in their response does show that from 10:30am when RAV 4 found until 3:04 pm (when Calumet County assumed responsibility for the car) there was one MCSO person after another on post with the car. And, as you know-- LENK was there. Arrived at 2pm. So from 2:00-3:04pm LENK was there and MCSO still had possession. CCSO still wasn't logged as "responsible" for the car until 3:04pm.

Not saying he was ever alone with the car- that seems impossible OR that the place wasn't absolutely crawling with MCSO AND CCSO personnel <---- simply not noted on the log I'm looking at? The log in THIS document seems to be specifically related to the car NOT necessarily including everyone on scene. And I suspect the times were taken from radio logs and dispatch center times provided in hindsight. BUT my earlier suspicions seem correct: CCSO takes over and WHAMMO!! LOG created. Document, document, document.

When compared to the official "LOG STARTED ON 11-5-05 @ 2:25PM PER 412" also available with these docs @ link up top
You'll see that THAT log (5 pages) STARTED TWENTY FIVE MINUTES AFTER LENK ON SCENE is absolutely loaded with officers piling into the place.
I guess there's no way to know how many CCSO peeps were there with MCSO & Lenk---prior to the official log.

EDIT: The Log started at 2:25pm (25 min after LENK on scene shows Wisconsin DCI agents Hunsader & Fassbender showing up along with 6 MCSO guys and 3 CCSO guys prior to official take over of RAV4.

I'm also noticing that EVERYONE had a different opinion on the color of the car. TH's mom called it dark blue in 11/5 search warrant. A lab report from Wisconsin State Crime Lab simply calls it blue. Steven calls it green when being interviewed in the car on 11/5. I think the DMV registration said green.

And one final thought-- I know a TON of ppl think it's fishy that Pamela Sturm found the car so quickly, even suggesting she was somehow in on the conspiracy?
I find her to be VERY credible. Very consistent, solid testimony, verbal/non-verbal clues (not expert). I personally looked at the map PRIOR to fully looking into her and TOTALLY thought I'd follow a very similar route. AND probably squirrel RIGHT OFF up that hill as well to get the outer perimeter and come back in.
Anyway-- we all think differently.

BUT!! If you read the entire transcript from her call to the sheriff ---she is transferred from dispatch initially or sheriff's clerk? to the Sheriff and then to the Investigator-- who is ultimately the one you hear telling her NOT to touch the car. I always assumed she had ONE convo with a male dispatcher. She says she "found a RAV 4" and thinks it might be TH's because it's covered with junk and branches. She ASKS the Sheriff-- IN AN ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE IF IT CAN BE TERESA'S CAR WHAT COLOR TERESA'S CAR IS!!!! She didn't know already!!
Seems like she was just scanning for RAV 4's and "any sign of Teresa"..
So score one for me!! I've always liked her. Sorry, not sorry
 
Nocturnal ~ I'm not sure that I have ever theorized that they put the blood in the RAV4 on the scene that Saturday morning, I'm not sure I believe that was possible either. I do have questions about the Colborn call (I know you don't, but I do LOL), and interesting that you point out that Sturm asked about the color of the vehicle... it was the one thing that Colborn didn't "confirm" or "verify". And yes, Sturm was asked NOT to touch the vehicle, but they tried all the doors anyway (thanks for potentially wiping away prints smh) When the RAV4 was removed it was taken to Manitowoc County Crime Lab.

I still have a few questions I have yet to find answers for... SA had blood drawn in 1985 too according to a list of evidence from the documentary, where is that? How many vials of blood did SA have drawn in 1996? I know that SA sent the lab a letter asking how many vials, but I'm not sure if he ever got an answer. Who unlocked the door of the RAV4? the guy (i'm still on my first coffee, can't remember who) that processed the vehicle said that the drivers side door was unlocked, he had to reach over and unlock the passenger seat and all the other doors were locked.
 
missy1974 said:
Nocturnal ~ I'm not sure that I have ever theorized that they put the blood in the RAV4 on the scene that Saturday morning, I'm not sure I believe that was possible either. I do have questions about the Colborn call (I know you don't, but I do LOL), and interesting that you point out that Sturm asked about the color of the vehicle... it was the one thing that Colborn didn't "confirm" or "verify". And yes, Sturm was asked NOT to touch the vehicle, but they tried all the doors anyway (thanks for potentially wiping away prints smh) When the RAV4 was removed it was taken to Manitowoc County Crime Lab.

I still have a few questions I have yet to find answers for... SA had blood drawn in 1985 too according to a list of evidence from the documentary, where is that? How many vials of blood did SA have drawn in 1996? I know that SA sent the lab a letter asking how many vials, but I'm not sure if he ever got an answer. Who unlocked the door of the RAV4? the guy (i'm still on my first coffee, can't remember who) that processed the vehicle said that the drivers side door was unlocked, he had to reach over and unlock the passenger seat and all the other doors were locked.
Click to expand...

As far as I can remember Pam Sturm or her daughter testified that MCSD showed up first and Calumet arrived a few minutes after. My memory is not very good--but I believe she said an officer from Calumet showed up about 3 minutes later.

To my knowledge--I had read that TH's car was taken directly to the Crime Lab in Madison--to my knowledge it was never in the crime lab in Manitowoc.
 
BigCityAccountant said:
As far as I can remember Pam Sturm or her daughter testified that MCSD showed up first and Calumet arrived a few minutes after. My memory is not very good--but I believe she said an officer from Calumet showed up about 3 minutes later.

To my knowledge--I had read that TH's car was taken directly to the Crime Lab in Madison--to my knowledge it was never in the crime lab in Manitowoc.
Click to expand...

Your memory is pretty good on this. Pam Sturm also testified that she wasn't exactly sure who was from which jurisdiction as both county departments wore brown uniforms, but after about 20 minutes of waiting for LE to show up, they started streaming in. And except for Brutus the police officer canine, no one else approached or touched the car. Once Brutus 'hit' on the Rav4, the crime scene techs were called and the car was loaded up on a flatbed truck and taken to the secure vehicle crime lab.
 
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