Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery

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Official docs written by LE who had already decided he was guilty or already had decided to frame him. I don't really equate the probable cause with truth.

Especially if you look at the sequence. BJ was "interviewed" (if you can call it that-I don't see anything other than the bleach story) in late February after they had elicited the "confession" from BD. What is equally plausible to me is they first worked on BD to get him to commit to a story that worked with the lack of evidence they had. They had spent casings and no blood, dna etc. So, BD is coached to eventually say, after the raping, stabbing and choking, that, oh yes, SA shot her too, 11 times to match the number of shells and the fact she was shot. They were stuck with this whole long story because it took them so long to get BD to say SA shot her. So, they had the whole tale of chaining, raping, stabbing, strangling and then shooting. And why no DNA, blood? Because they cleaned it so well. And then they go to BJ and she supposedly just blurts out the bleach story. Ummm, not really convinced...


Yeah, to know what actually was said in court will be the barometer for the integrity of the documentary. imo

I did read the confession here - http://convolutedbrian.com.s3.amazonaws.com/dassey/13May2006/13May06Transcript.pdf

I also read the probable cause which DOES mention Barb Janda's statement. -- http://convolutedbrian.com.s3.amazonaws.com/dassey/courtdocs/complaint-02Mar2006.pdf

These are both official docs.

What I find weird is that Barb Janda's statement was made almost 5 months after the murder. That's alot of time for Barb to think about what happened that day, but it also shows that the bleach on the jeans and what he said stuck in her head. Even further, she must not have though it was significant or that it would implicate Brendan in anything. So, no motivation to be deceptive.
 
Another thing that kind of gets glossed over in the documentary is Avery borderline abducting a woman at gunpoint. Lets not forget that this happened. It doesn't mean that he committed this crime, but it does indicate he has ability to be violent. Yes, I personally have trouble with him pulling a gun on someone, regardless of what was said about him via gossip or whatever.

I just bring that up to say that with knowledge of that incident, it's not nearly as hard for me to believe that he could be violent again or go to another level.

For example, you sometimes hear about murderers killing someone because they can't have them. Dahmer noted that wanting to control his victims was part of his drive.

Again... we don't know if this is true, but supposedly avery called and *specifically* requested halbach for the photos and gave B. Janda as the name. Supposedly, halbach had complained about Avery coming to the door in only a towel on one or more occasions and that made her uncomfortable.

So, isn't it important to know that if that is true or not ? Because if halbach was maybe even rejecting advances by avery , would that not possibly be a motive ?

I'm just speculating all this, but I don't think it's crazy talk when you have read about cases where guys are rejected and then stalk/kill the woman. It happens.

So that is why I think it's important to have the answers to questions like that. Excluding them from the documentary if they are indeed true occurrences, is deceptive and manipulative imo.
 
But did she say it? That's my problem. It's written in a probable cause affidavit. But that's not sufficient evidence for me in this case. Did she testify about this? I found it odd the way it was written. Trying to imagine how the bleach statement was even elicited. What did they ask her? Did she say this on the first try? Or was it woven from questions about whether BD ever had bleach stains and then trying to narrow down when? Sort of like DB's "confession"? It just strikes me as too convenient given the LE history with SA. Because of their prior behavior and because of the pressure of the lawsuit I feel I can't take anything at face value.


I am not convinced by anything! :) I hear ya.

But if Barb said it, and then gives an explanation - why wouldn't that be in the documentary ? That's my point. To exclude that she ever said it or at least note she said it and then state why it's not reliable etc -- that's not suspicious to you ?

An example is the teenage girl that said brendan was crying. that got mentioned in the documentary and then that she later recanted. right ? That's an example of the documentary giving an explanation for evidence that points towards the police narrative.

Now... with barb's statement, they didn't even bring it up. For all we know, she would still state it as truth today. right ? If that is the case, then what do you think ?

But to exclude it, that's not giving the full story, that's being deceptive.
 
I want to thank people who are familiar with this case for pointing out the apparent bias/missing pieces of info. This doc is getting a tremendous amount of buzz right now (on places like reddit), and I can tell you a lot of TV viewers who are not true crime followers already believe Avery is 100% innocent as a result. I'm having second thoughts about watching if it doesn't sound like they tried strenuously to be objective and unbiased.
I don't believe they were completely biased at all. It's worth a go.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 
Was her skull recovered (and will bullet holes visible)? I thought she was found as cremains.
If I recall correctly they had a forensic anthroplogist state that a piece of the skull looked like a partial bullet hole. No evidence of multiple fractures.
 
I grew up in WI, in Sheboygan County, and my family still lives there. I was a junior in high school during this trial, and remember the coverage of it, which was non-stop. My parents both followed the trial extremely closely (like a lot of people in the area did) and up until this documentary came out, I had no doubt of Avery's guilt, and from what I have gathered from friends, family, and acquaintances who still live in the area, most people don't doubt Avery's guilt either. Of the people I have talked to in the last few days while home for the holidays, people are more willing to be sympathetic and doubtful of Dassey's guilt or involvement. When Avery was convicted, people weren't really surprised. There was a lot of negative opinions about the Avery family prior to any of this happening, and while some of it is certainly just small town gossip, Avery did spend time in prison for throwing a cat in a fire, and he did assault a relative w. a firearm. IIRC, his brother's also had served time in prison. Obviously none of this makes him guilty of the Halbach murder, but I'm just trying to give some context into why local opinion of Avery is the way it was.

I'm currently a law student, and from a legal perspective, I wish this documentary would have focused more on Dassey. Avery had great attorneys (better than many defendants get) and he had as fair a trial as could be expected given the media coverage. Just because Avery's case was covered non-stop in the media doesn't mean a jury would be unable to find him not guilty- both OJ Simpson, Casey Anthony, and George Zimmerman are just a few examples of that. All the evidence presented by the documentary was presented to the jury, and they still found him guilty. Dassey, however, gave a confession that someone w. no legal training should be able to see as garbage and coerced. He was a 16 year old CHILD of clearly lower intelligence, who coached and guided not only by the investigators but his own ATTORNEY into giving confessions that didn't make sense w. the evidence. While the investigators behavior is reprehensible, his attorney's is deplorable. Most adults of average to above average intelligence would be scared and confused and in need of guidance when on trial for first degree murder. This is the exact reason why every defendant is guaranteed an attorney, and there should be no doubt in their minds that their attorney is working 100 percent in protection of their best interests. Allowing Dassey to speak w. investigators w.o his attorney present, knowing that Dassey was easily manipulated and of lower intelligence is beyond reprehensible, and his attorney should be ashamed of himself. Dassey's conversations w. his mother are absolutely heartbreaking- he clearly had no idea the severity of the situation he was in, how he got into it, or what he could do to help himself. If anyone deserves a new trial, it is Dassey.

The question I have for everyone who watched this and suddenly is 100 percent convinced of Avery's innocence, is who killed Teresa Halbach and put her charred remains and belongings on Avery's property? If someone planted that car on Avery's property because they wanted him to look guilty, why would they take off the license plates and throw them in a salvaged car on the property? Wouldn't they want to keep them on so the car could be quickly identified and Avery framed? I don't think there is any doubt evidence was tampered with, but it's one thing to tamper w. evidence and entirely another to murder an innocent woman and plant her body on Avery's salvage yard. Clearly, the murder didn't go down like Dassey said, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Why did Dassey's mother state that he came home covered in bleach, and he responded that it was from cleaning Avery's garage? If someone else murdered Teresa, how did they know when she left Avery's and how were they able to get back on Avery's property to plant her car and charred body and belongings? She never had any contact w. anyone after heading to Avery's. Avery said she was there to take pictures, he is the one who requested her personally, and the only person saying he wasn't the last person to see her alive is Avery himself. Even though there was plenty of evidence questioning Avery's guilt, there was just as much evidence supporting it, and IMO the documentary doesn't do enough to show this evidence.
The point of a juror is to decide if someone was proved beyond a reasonable doubt, not necessarily who might have done it instead or if the accused IS actually guilty. There are many cases where a jury finds someone not guilty and a juror will say later that he believed deep down the accused was guilty, but there wasn't enough evidence. This documentary, in my mind, at the very least shows that Avery's or Dassey's case was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. There was misconduct by the prosecutor, by Dassey's attorney, by police, and so forth.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 
Official docs written by LE who had already decided he was guilty or already had decided to frame him. I don't really equate the probable cause with truth.

Especially if you look at the sequence. BJ was "interviewed" (if you can call it that-I don't see anything other than the bleach story) in late February after they had elicited the "confession" from BD. What is equally plausible to me is they first worked on BD to get him to commit to a story that worked with the lack of evidence they had. They had spent casings and no blood, dna etc. So, BD is coached to eventually say, after the raping, stabbing and choking, that, oh yes, SA shot her too, 11 times to match the number of shells and the fact she was shot. They were stuck with this whole long story because it took them so long to get BD to say SA shot her. So, they had the whole tale of chaining, raping, stabbing, strangling and then shooting. And why no DNA, blood? Because they cleaned it so well. And then they go to BJ and she supposedly just blurts out the bleach story. Ummm, not really convinced...

I think we agree on LE not being able to be trusted. As I said, I am not convinced by anything. Do I believe that things went down like they describe. nope.

But, you have to admit that this woman was killed. So how she was killed is the goal we are trying to achieve.

We do know that halbach was last seen by someone at the avery junkyard. That is fact in terms of what we KNOW. Steve admits that openly. Bobby notes that openly. Brendan notes that openly. Bus driver confirmed that.

So what is important next. Did someone see halbach leave the junk yard ? right ? that's the next step. So as long as Avery was the last to see, you need to investigate that location. can you agree ?

So did LE drop the ball by not even looking into other avenues. Sure, I agree with that. But does that exclude Avery in my mind. nope.

Do I believe LE maybe even possibly planted evidence ? sure! I believe that!

But does that exclude Avery ? nope.

What excludes avery is explanations about what happened at his residence. What barb said, conflicts with what Steve said -- if we are to believe Barb actually said that. Again, I am open to that possibly being false confession But I'd like to hear her deny it. you ? If you have seen her deny it, definitely point the way.

Now, if auto trader said these things -- again. Lets hear Steve say - I didn't do that. We didn't hear that. We heard NOTHING in the documentary about that. Is it false ? I am open to that too. was it rumor ? possibly. But I guess thats all many of us are saying. If you aren't going to have Barb deny what she said or Auto Trader explanation -- should we just believe whatever anyone says without question ?

I can't do that. can you ?
 
I want to make clear that me saying that I can't exclude Avery being the murderer , doesn't mean I think he's guilty. It just means I'm not sure. I don't know.

That's kind of why I am asking these questions. Because I find them in need of plausible answers. It's entirely possible that police were corrupt to no end and Avery still is guilty. That's still possible in my mind. Open to alternatives as well. But I can't exclude him based on what we know.

sadly bobby, chuck, earl, scott, ex boyfriend, and roommate will likely never be investigated.

Also, for the record if I was on the jury, I would vote not guilty based on what I have seen so far. Just because I don't believe I could trust law enforcement.

But again, that's not because I don't think it's possible that Avery is actually guilty.
 
The point of a juror is to decide if someone was proved beyond a reasonable doubt, not necessarily who might have done it instead or if the accused IS actually guilty. There are many cases where a jury finds someone not guilty and a juror will say later that he believed deep down the accused was guilty, but there wasn't enough evidence. This documentary, in my mind, at the very least shows that Avery's or Dassey's case was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. There was misconduct by the prosecutor, by Dassey's attorney, by police, and so forth. Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
The dismissed juror in this case said that he was leaning towards not guilty along with a majority of others.
 
The point of a juror is to decide if someone was proved beyond a reasonable doubt, not necessarily who might have done it instead or if the accused IS actually guilty. There are many cases where a jury finds someone not guilty and a juror will say later that he believed deep down the accused was guilty, but there wasn't enough evidence. This documentary, in my mind, at the very least shows that Avery's or Dassey's case was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. There was misconduct by the prosecutor, by Dassey's attorney, by police, and so forth.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

I agree. I totally would say not guilty. But it wouldn't be because I believed avery was innocent. I'd still have many questions and that points to the police not doing their job.

Sadly enough, murderers get off sometimes because of poor LE work and sometimes innocent people get railroaded.

The documentary was manipulative though, so maybe if I ever actually see all the evidence, I might think differently.

That seems to be a pipe dream as i can't find a transcript of the trial :/
 
The dismissed juror in this case said that he was leaning towards not guilty along with a majority of others.

This was actually another aspect of the documentary that I didn't like and felt was manipulative.

I wish the juror would have spoken more about why people felt a given way and what evidence was most important to them. Instead he more talked about the jurors themselves and not any real detail on why they believed a given way. Both for and against avery.

Which again, made me think that maybe the documentary didn't want to do that because they'd mention the things I have brought up here ? yes, i believe they are questions that need answers to convince me avery had nothing to do with the murder.
 
Omg....I think I'm on series 1, 5th episode?

I feel so sad for the Avery family....I remember Steven from news reports In 2005ish...then I remember the second arrest.....but nothing else....I don't remember or know how this ends....fingers crossed that there is a god.....

I feel like I'm watching an episode of the twilight zone .......
 
Regarding the bleach, if it happend....I don't think bleach is a normal cleaning ingredient to use in a garage unless you're trying to clean up something serious. Am I wrong? Do people use bleach to clean up grease/gasoline in a garage?? I used quite a bit of bleach in my garage a couple of weeks ago when my sick dog had diarrhea all over it. I had the garage door open and was wondering if my neighbors wondered what the heck I was cleaning up (I read too much WS!). It's the first time in my life I've ever used bleach on my garage floor, though.
 
I agree. I totally would say not guilty. But it wouldn't be because I believed avery was innocent. I'd still have many questions and that points to the police not doing their job.

Sadly enough, murderers get off sometimes because of poor LE work and sometimes innocent people get railroaded.

The documentary was manipulative though, so maybe if I ever actually see all the evidence, I might think differently.

That seems to be a pipe dream as i can't find a transcript of the trial :/

That's just it though. Jurors aren't supposed to decide just based on what seems plausible. That's one reason detectives should follow all leads, even if they are sure who did it. That alone can create reasonable doubt. Avery may well be guilty, but if he's convicted when there's reasonable doubt, that undermines the system. Maybe on a moral level a guilty person should be convicted with reasonable doubt, but not on an ethical level.

I really hope another film crew makes a follow up to delve more into the prosecution's case and challenge the defence case.
 
That's just it though. Jurors aren't supposed to decide just based on what seems plausible. That's one reason detectives should follow all leads, even if they are sure who did it. That alone can create reasonable doubt. Avery may well be guilty, but if he's convicted when there's reasonable doubt, that undermines the system. Maybe on a moral level a guilty person should be convicted with reasonable doubt, but not on an ethical level.

I really hope another film crew makes a follow up to delve more into the prosecution's case and challenge the defence case.

very true. I'll say that was the most striking factor against law enforcement imo. That there was reason to question others who Teresa knew and they admitted they hadn't. If there was someone calling her and bothering her , as a juror, I'd want to know who that was and what the deal was. That's someone that might have a motive to do something to her.
 
I don't believe anything that prosecutor says. He's unethical and a creep, which I find a very bad combination.

A former state prosecutor and victims' rights advocate who tried to spark a sexual relationship with a domestic abuse victim and made sexual remarks to social workers cannot practice law for four months, the Wisconsin Supreme Court announced Friday....

Kratz resigned in October 2010 as then-Gov. Jim Doyle began a little-used process to remove him from office. More women came forward and accused him of making sexual remarks to them; one social worker said he made a comment about oral sex to her before she testified in court and later told her he wanted the case to end so he could go to Las Vegas and have "big-boobed" women serve him drinks. Another social worker said he told her that he thought a court reporter had big breasts.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-da-ken-kratzs-law-license-suspended-in-sexting-scandal/

I firmly believe everyone invoked knew the story Brendan told, of chaining, raping, stabbing, strangling the victim was not possibly true based on the (lack of) evidence. Yet the prosecutor fed that tale to the public for the express purpose, IMO, of further prejudicing the community and juror pool against SA. If you inflame people sufficiently they are less likely to be concerned with the niceties of evidence.

I don't know if SA is guilty or innocent. I do know that corruption was rampant in this case.

What do you think of the claim that 80% of the evidence wasn't covered in the documentary??

http://fox11online.com/news/local/l...rer-creates-buzz-threats-for-avery-prosecutor
 
But the motive there was anger at the woman who was his cousin and who happened to be married to the sherrif. I don't even remember precisely what it was about, but he was very angry at her for something she was maybe saying about him? It had a specific motivation and isn't at all similar, IMO, to the crime against the murdered victim.



Another thing that kind of gets glossed over in the documentary is Avery borderline abducting a woman at gunpoint. Lets not forget that this happened. It doesn't mean that he committed this crime, but it does indicate he has ability to be violent. Yes, I personally have trouble with him pulling a gun on someone, regardless of what was said about him via gossip or whatever.

I just bring that up to say that with knowledge of that incident, it's not nearly as hard for me to believe that he could be violent again or go to another level.

For example, you sometimes hear about murderers killing someone because they can't have them. Dahmer noted that wanting to control his victims was part of his drive.

Again... we don't know if this is true, but supposedly avery called and *specifically* requested halbach for the photos and gave B. Janda as the name. Supposedly, halbach had complained about Avery coming to the door in only a towel on one or more occasions and that made her uncomfortable.

So, isn't it important to know that if that is true or not ? Because if halbach was maybe even rejecting advances by avery , would that not possibly be a motive ?

I'm just speculating all this, but I don't think it's crazy talk when you have read about cases where guys are rejected and then stalk/kill the woman. It happens.

So that is why I think it's important to have the answers to questions like that. Excluding them from the documentary if they are indeed true occurrences, is deceptive and manipulative imo.
 
But the motive there was anger at the woman who was his cousin and who happened to be married to the sherrif. I don't even remember precisely what it was about, but he was very angry at her for something she was maybe saying about him? It had a specific motivation and isn't at all similar, IMO, to the crime against the murdered victim.

She had apparently been telling people that Avery and his wife were having sex on their front lawn for the neighbours to see. Avery denied this and was angry at his cousin. The cousin denied she ever spread this rumour, though she agreed that she actively disliked Avery.
 
Started watching last night, snoozed, just finished the tenth episode. Wow.

Thanks to all who have analyzed & offered opinions here, esp w some things I missing in my watching.
Heading off to read transcripts of LE interviewing Brendan.

ETA: an article on the series: http://previously.tv/making-a-murderer/two-episodes-in-who-do-you-trust-on-making-a-murderer/
Some astute observations (but also some snark).
This article! Hilarious if it wasn't in reference to a true story! I've never seen that forum before but it looks interesting so thanks!

I watched the last episode in this series last night. I did not think there could be anything to make me WTF more than I had already. I was wrong.

The only things I came away certain of are:

1) That sheriff's department is as sketchy and crooked as they come.

2) There is NO WAY anyone could have cleaned that trailer, garage, or anything else to the degree there would be zero biological evidence left behind.

3) I have no idea what really happened to this poor woman.

4) I hope to never ever be accused of a crime I didn't commit.
 
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