New Details of Josh's Brainwashing Techniques

[GrainneDhu]

You are quite an expert in this aren't you? I mean that will due respect, not sarcasm.

I also thought about the "shaking the ground" factor. A perp. might think twice about this method of evidence removal if he/she thought it would call attention to his/her actions.

However, if a perp. did do this, then that would be good for investigators, right, because they could track the seismic activity in the area.

So thank you for your response.

Every now and then, I get the idea for a murder mystery and I do a bunch of research to back it up. Then I start writing the thing and I *hate* what I wrote, so I toss it. If I can't stand to read it myself, what are the chances someone else will want to read it?

A bit frustrating but it motivates me to learn about all sorts of things I would not ordinarily find interesting. The research itself is probably what motivates me.

I think that if the perp knew about seismic monitoring, they probably wouldn't choose explosives underground as a method. Too risky. The question would be, how likely is it that the perpetrator would know?

My theory is that someone who has lived in an earthquake prone zone would be much more aware than people who live in places where earthquakes are rare.

 

[Jacie Estes]

I can't imagine psychologists in Utah and Washington could be unaware of the Church of LDS. The Church is very popular in the West.

I was raised back east and though I had heard of Mormons, I had never noticed one of their temples. But in the Western states, the Mormon temple is like the Catholic cathedral in Europe: very often the largest and tallest building in town. Hard to miss.

I've seen Mormon temples on several rezzes. Not elaborate but they are there. In Independence, Missouri there is a temple that is really beautiful, a very high spire that looks like glass in the sun.

 

[Jacie Estes]

BBM

Dynamite is actually a very stable explosive, meaning that it basically takes an explosion to get it to explode. So attached to the dynamite is a blasting cap, which is a small amount of highly unstable explosive (when playing with these types of explosives, it's the blasting caps that will get you every time).

The box with the plunger handle on it is used to detonate an electric blasting cap. The box is a combination of an electric battery and a switch (the handle) with a wire that runs to the blasting cap, which is attached to the dynamite. When the switch is on (the handle plunged), the battery sends a current down the wire.

Inside the blasting cap, the electric wire is bare and skinny. This wire heats up and causes the explosive in the blasting cap to go off, which triggers the dynamite.

Or not.

The "or not" situations are very upsetting because you've got this unstable explosive sitting out there attached to dynamite and you don't know for sure what went wrong. No one wants to be the person who goes up to the explosive bundle and figure out what went wrong and yet, typically, you can't just shrug and leave it sitting there.

Keeping a pair of clean underwear on hand is recommended for such eventualities.

I digress.

The problem with explosives in a mine shaft is that they shake the ground. The whole USA is covered with seismic monitors which can detect earthquakes and anything else that shakes the ground. Seismologists can look at the graphs of seismic activity and figure out whether the activity was a tiny earthquake or an explosion underground.

Via triangulation, the epicenter of the earth movement can be located quite accurately (to within feet).

Dugway is in the West Desert; if jp used dynamite there, military would be all over him.

 

[OneLove]

I've seen Mormon temples on several rezzes. Not elaborate but they are there. In Independence, Missouri there is a temple that is really beautiful, a very high spire that looks like glass in the sun.

That is a truly amazing building in Independence, lots of granite that spirals up into the sky; beautiful grounds too, built during the Bush years.

If you Mapquest Independence, MO and go to satellite view, you can see the building. The great surprise is the nearby Masonic Lodge and the aerial view clearly shows a surprising pattern. Check it out!

 

[gwenabob]

That is a truly amazing building in Independence, lots of granite that spirals up into the sky; beautiful grounds too, built during the Bush years.

If you Mapquest Independence, MO and go to satellite view, you can see the building. The great surprise is the nearby Masonic Lodge and the aerial view clearly shows a surprising pattern. Check it out!

That is not an LDS Temple. It belongs to the Community of Christ.

 

[Peazzzer]

I have been so under the weather that I haven't been here in a while. I have been reading the thread with tears in my eyes from sadness and plain old rage. I just can't help thinking that none of the legal entities in the whole shmeel give a crap. Like another day, another dollar. Oh, those boys died? Hmmmm....next?! If I can see the problems and you all can see the problems, why can't or don't the people in place to take care of this see it??? It is beyond the beyond..the fake house, the hostility, Charlie acting out, *advertiser censored*, *advertiser censored*, *advertiser censored*, missing mother, narcisist, blah blah blah.

It just breaks my heart. It still feels surreal. I hope Josh stays in flames, eternal flames. The people I want to hold accountable are the law. That is besides Josh, who is not here to answer any more than he did when he was alive. And I am even more incensed that the villains have more rights than the victims, once again.

 

[Sulamith]

I absolutely do not want anyone to think I am some apologist for Josh Powell but it may seem so after I post my thoughts.

Here is a quote from Chuck Cox from an article from the Salt Lake Tribune Nov. 8, 2010:
Susan would gain access to her and Josh Powell's account and Josh Powell "would change the account numbers and the PIN numbers," Chuck Cox said.http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50609169-78/powell-josh-susan-cox.html.csp?page=1
Question: Was Susan working at the time her father made this statement? If she was, did her company direct deposit her pay into a joint account with JP? If JP closed out that joint account, Susan's employer would have notified her that there was no account into which her paycheck could have been deposited into. I am not sure what Chuck Cox means when he states that JP would change the account numbers?? At my bank,(not in Utah) I just cannot change my account number. If I wanted to keep/protect my money from my husband, I would have to close out our joint account, and open a new one,(and transfer all the money in the joint account) in my name only for my paycheck to be direct deposited into. Once Susan learned from her employer's HR Dept. that her check could not be deposited, they would have asked her to give them a valid bank account # or possible cut her a paper check in which she could have cashed that check and and opened her own bank account in her name only.
Then I found these legal documents, posted on Deseret News: http://www.deseretnews.com/media/pdf/603540.pdf
Chuck Cox states he convinced Susan to open hew own account and that she used a debit card to transfer funds from her last paycheck into the account and that much to her surprise, Josh never noticed that she had moved money into the account. So, I have no idea what to belive. It seems Susan DID have access to the joint bank account.??
Any thought from Websleuthers that have kept more up-to-date- than I have

 

[Pensfan]

I absolutely do not want anyone to think I am some apologist for Josh Powell but it may seem so after I post my thoughts.

Here is a quote from Chuck Cox from an article from the Salt Lake Tribune Nov. 8, 2010:
Susan would gain access to her and Josh Powell's account and Josh Powell "would change the account numbers and the PIN numbers," Chuck Cox said.http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50609169-78/powell-josh-susan-cox.html.csp?page=1
Question: Was Susan working at the time her father made this statement? If she was, did her company direct deposit her pay into a joint account with JP? If JP closed out that joint account, Susan's employer would have notified her that there was no account into which her paycheck could have been deposited into. I am not sure what Chuck Cox means when he states that JP would change the account numbers?? At my bank,(not in Utah) I just cannot change my account number. If I wanted to keep/protect my money from my husband, I would have to close out our joint account, and open a new one,(and transfer all the money in the joint account) in my name only for my paycheck to be direct deposited into. Once Susan learned from her employer's HR Dept. that her check could not be deposited, they would have asked her to give them a valid bank account # or possible cut her a paper check in which she could have cashed that check and and opened her own bank account in her name only.
Then I found these legal documents, posted on Deseret News: http://www.deseretnews.com/media/pdf/603540.pdf
Chuck Cox states he convinced Susan to open hew own account and that she used a debit card to transfer funds from her last paycheck into the account and that much to her surprise, Josh never noticed that she had moved money into the account. So, I have no idea what to belive. It seems Susan DID have access to the joint bank account.??

Any thought from Websleuthers that have kept more up-to-date- than I have

bbm
The monster probably just changed the account pin number/password on their personal account so Susan would not be able to withdrawn funds which the monster HAD to control.

It sounds like Susan may have taken one(?) of her paychecks to the bank and cashed it with the cashier putting her money on a disposable debit cash card. At this point she opened another account or went to another bank and opened an account that the monster couldn't find. There is no doubt that the monster watched every penny like a hawk and knew immediately that Susan didn't deposit her paycheck into an account which he could control.

 

[Jacie Estes]

bbm
The monster probably just changed the account pin number/password on their personal account so Susan would not be able to withdrawn funds which the monster HAD to control.

It sounds like Susan may have taken one(?) of her paychecks to the bank and cashed it with the cashier putting her money on a disposable debit cash card. At this point she opened another account or went to another bank and opened an account that the monster couldn't find. There is no doubt that the monster watched every penny like a hawk and knew immediately that Susan didn't deposit her paycheck into an account which he could control.

He may have known but was sneaky enough to retaliate in unseen ways. I would think the money issue would be a tipping point for him; I believe he was poisoning her while plotting to do away with her. It seems that Susan had a good heart and gave him every benefit of the doubt. I do not believe she had the wool pulled over her eyes easily. I think that josh was just as devious with the money issue as he was with his final act.

 

[Frigga]

Josh would change the PIN numbers, so she couldn't withdraw funds... the money never had a problem going into the account. Josh would then be the one to have sole access to the account because he would do this to her. What a devious loser, IMO. His relatives must be proud on so many levels, apparently (rampant snark fully intended).

 

[Sulamith]

Josh would change the PIN numbers, so she couldn't withdraw funds... the money never had a problem going into the account. Josh would then be the one to have sole access to the account because he would do this to her. What a devious loser, IMO. His relatives must be proud on so many levels, apparently (rampant snark fully intended).

I don't live in Utah so I don't know how banking is done there, but if I have my debit/credit card and don't remember my PIN # I can just tell the merchant to run the card as a credit, no PIN required, just my signature. And if I lose my card and need to make a withdrawal, I just walk into the bank/drive through and make a withdrawal. Maybe Utah banking laws differ??

 

[gwenabob]

I don't live in Utah so I don't know how banking is done there, but if I have my debit/credit card and don't remember my PIN # I can just tell the merchant to run the card as a credit, no PIN required, just my signature. And if I lose my card and need to make a withdrawal, I just walk into the bank/drive through and make a withdrawal. Maybe Utah banking laws differ??

She probably could do that and probably did...over and over and over again. It was Josh's way of reminding her "who is boss" and making it a constant hassle to spend money. Imagine you are at the grocery store or any other store trying to use your debit card to pay, and you realize your PIN doesn't work. How humiliating. You have to leave your purchase and walk away.

She worked full time and I imagine she didn't have a lot of free time to go to the bank whenever Josh felt like controlling the bank account. It was a means of passive-aggressive retaliation.

It is quite possible he also would change the online banking password so she couldn't even check what the accounts were doing online. Josh controlled her use of the computer at home, and if he changed the password, she couldn't even look up her account at work. How frustrating to not be able to see how much money you had or where it was going! And she was the major earner! Despicable!

 

[Sulamith]

She probably could do that and probably did...over and over and over again. It was Josh's way of reminding her "who is boss" and making it a constant hassle to spend money. Imagine you are at the grocery store or any other store trying to use your debit card to pay, and you realize your PIN doesn't work. How humiliating. You have to leave your purchase and walk away.

She worked full time and I imagine she didn't have a lot of free time to go to the bank whenever Josh felt like controlling the bank account. It was a means of passive-aggressive retaliation.

It is quite possible he also would change the online banking password so she couldn't even check what the accounts were doing online. Josh controlled her use of the computer at home, and if he changed the password, she couldn't even look up her account at work. How frustrating to not be able to see how much money you had or where it was going! And she was the major earner! Despicable!

None of my friends would of put up with JP's controlling crap. I wonder if she was trying to be a Biblical submissive wife?? where he was head of the house? Susan seemed to be a rather weak woman, but I really hate to think of her that way. It might be that her parents and her family have showed her to be a very weak woman so they could show the world how JP was so controlling over her, but in a way it shows how weak Susan was.

 

[couggal]

She probably could do that and probably did...over and over and over again. It was Josh's way of reminding her "who is boss" and making it a constant hassle to spend money. Imagine you are at the grocery store or any other store trying to use your debit card to pay, and you realize your PIN doesn't work. How humiliating. You have to leave your purchase and walk away.

She worked full time and I imagine she didn't have a lot of free time to go to the bank whenever Josh felt like controlling the bank account. It was a means of passive-aggressive retaliation.

It is quite possible he also would change the online banking password so she couldn't even check what the accounts were doing online. Josh controlled her use of the computer at home, and if he changed the password, she couldn't even look up her account at work. How frustrating to not be able to see how much money you had or where it was going! And she was the major earner! Despicable!

You can run your debit card as credit so she wouldn't have to abandon her purchases. I do agree, however, that yes the SOB was controlling and trying to make a statement.

 

[Pensfan]

None of my friends would of put up with JP's controlling crap. I wonder if she was trying to be a Biblical submissive wife?? where he was head of the house? Susan seemed to be a rather weak woman, but I really hate to think of her that way. It might be that her parents and her family have showed her to be a very weak woman so they could show the world how JP was so controlling over her, but in a way it shows how weak Susan was.

Maybe Susan was very brave. (I am not advocating for women to stay in abusive marriages.)

IMO, she stayed in that horrible marriage because of subconscious or conscious fears about the monster killing or stealing/hiding/taking custody of her precious little boys. JP was a warped, violent, controlling, and unpredictable monster, but Susan did not have solid proof of his pathology to present in family court. I think Susan subconsciously or consciously worried about what would happen if the monster was given custody of her defenseless boys or even weekend visits. She couldn't protect her boys if she wasn't allowed to be with them at all times. In addition, if JP was given custody of Susan's children or weekend visits, her children would also be forced to stay with perv grandpa and his other "interesting" family members without her protection.

You can run your debit card as credit so she wouldn't have to abandon her purchases. I do agree, however, that yes the SOB was controlling and trying to make a statement.

You can only use your debit card as credit if you have credit. They had financial difficulties.

 

[gwenabob]

None of my friends would of put up with JP's controlling crap. I wonder if she was trying to be a Biblical submissive wife?? where he was head of the house? Susan seemed to be a rather weak woman, but I really hate to think of her that way. It might be that her parents and her family have showed her to be a very weak woman so they could show the world how JP was so controlling over her, but in a way it shows how weak Susan was.

I don't understand where you get the idea she was "weak." I think she was far from it. She wanted to be a stay at home mom, but instead went out and earned her stockbroker's license and got a good job in the field, making herself the primary earner. She rode her bike to work every day, five miles each way for a time. She raised the boys nearly single handedly because Josh wasn't really the hands-on father type--unless it was to use the boys to thwart her. She raised a garden. She volunteered at church, even with a full time job. She may have been married to a jerk, but she made the best of it. She was planning to divorce him, but was giving him one last chance to be the man he was when they married. She knew it was going to be difficult and was taking steps to start the separation process. No, I don't see anything at all that shows Susan as weak. She was granite strong.

And quite frankly, I think the idea that her parents are purposely making her look "weak" is insulting to them and her. Anyone can look weak if they are paired with an uber control freak.

 

[MsWeatherwax]

I have a reasonable amount of experience with abusive relationships. Unless you've been involved first hand either within one or by trying to extract someone from one, it's very hard to understand the twisted politics that go on.

Logical solution: Susan leaves Josh, takes the kids and moves in with her parents, who obviously love and care for her and would be grateful to support her.

What Susan was probably thinking: If she moves in with her parents, he would know where she was. She would be bringing what she couldn't live with to her parents door step, endangering herself, her children and her parents. Josh controls the money, so she can't just up and rent somewhere herself. Even if she did, she would be living alone without protection from a man who obviously had some scary issues. A women's shelter would be out of the question - they aren't always very nice, and not only do you run the risk of your partner finding you, you also run the risk of any number of other women's abusive partners turning up.

IMO, Susan isn't where she is because she was weak. She's where she is because she was too strong - she was very likely trying to protect everyone but herself.

 

[BritsKate]

None of my friends would of put up with JP's controlling crap. I wonder if she was trying to be a Biblical submissive wife?? where he was head of the house? Susan seemed to be a rather weak woman, but I really hate to think of her that way. It might be that her parents and her family have showed her to be a very weak woman so they could show the world how JP was so controlling over her, but in a way it shows how weak Susan was.

I don't know if you're aware of the psychology involved in abuse. It doesn't begin immediately - it is a very gradual process. An abuser is essentially a predator that stalks their prey - they learn their victim's strengths and weaknesses, hopes and fears and from that point their every manipulation is strategically designed to weaken their victim's resolve, to control, to subjugate.

Anyone can find themselves in an abusive relationship. It isn't about weakness, self esteem or socio-economics. It's about falling in love with someone who you become a thing to.

If Josh had been abusive and controlling from the moment they met Susan wouldn't have stayed. No one would - but that simply isn't how abuse works. He would have trapped her, isolated her, whittled down her self-esteem and self-worth, made her believe she would lose her children to him, used her religion against her to assert control and authority, and controlled transportation/finances to further secure domination. It would have happened over months and then years until the crazy-making, gaslighting, brainwashing, threats, isolation, control and criticisms made her believe she was the one with all the problems. It is mental torture - especially when you are trying to weigh your children's best interests as well.

She lived it everyday. Unless you've been there it is difficult to imagine how much strength it takes to survive and endure abuse at the hands of someone you love. It is devastating to the human spirit...and no one chooses it.

 

[wallflower67]

I don't live in Utah so I don't know how banking is done there, but if I have my debit/credit card and don't remember my PIN # I can just tell the merchant to run the card as a credit, no PIN required, just my signature. And if I lose my card and need to make a withdrawal, I just walk into the bank/drive through and make a withdrawal. Maybe Utah banking laws differ??

Yes, she could run it as a credit....but maybe he didn't let her have the card all the time? Maybe they had different accounts and he could move money back and forth so that it wasn't in the account that she had the card/pin for?

For example, my husband has his own checking account, I have my own checking account and a savings account, and my daughter has her own checking account.

When we login to the bank's site we can see all the accounts, but I only have the debit cards to my accounts, husband has only his, and my daughter's hers.

Everyone has their own money, but if someone is out and doesn't have quite enough to finish filling the gas tank we can call one of the others and they can transfer $ from one of the other accounts. My poor husband was hitting the BK drive through about an hour before his paycheck hit his account and was short lol...I transfered him the money so he could get his egg/biscuit whatever and diet coke. He works on contract so some months are kind of skimpy!

Also, for some reason, my bank had our cards set up so that they didn't work as debit cards. For 20 years we've had to run them as credit cards unitl about 3 months ago, and now we can use the PINs. I'm just now getting used to not signing.

So if Josh and Susan had both a checking and savings, and Susan only had the debit card to the checking, Josh could be the only one with the online password and move money back and forth from the savings to the checking based on how high he wanted her to jump.

If I remember from reading Josh's psych report, or maybe it was one of Susan's friends said, that they had decided to have their own checking accounts and then a joint one as well. I bet they did it like my husband and I do though....link them online so you can see them all at once rather than have a separate bank login for all 3.

 

[dovebar]

I don't know if you're aware of the psychology involved in abuse. It doesn't begin immediately - it is a very gradual process. An abuser is essentially a predator that stalks their prey - they learn their victim's strengths and weaknesses, hopes and fears and from that point their every manipulation is strategically designed to weaken their victim's resolve, to control, to subjugate.

Anyone can find themselves in an abusive relationship. It isn't about weakness, self esteem or socio-economics. It's about falling in love with someone who you become a thing to.

If Josh had been abusive and controlling from the moment they met Susan wouldn't have stayed. No one would - but that simply isn't how abuse works. He would have trapped her, isolated her, whittled down her self-esteem and self-worth, made her believe she would lose her children to him, used her religion against her to assert control and authority, and controlled transportation/finances to further secure domination. It would have happened over months and then years until the crazy-making, gaslighting, brainwashing, threats, isolation, control and criticisms made her believe she was the one with all the problems. It is mental torture - especially when you are trying to weigh your children's best interests as well.

She lived it everyday. Unless you've been there it is difficult to imagine how much strength it takes to survive and endure abuse at the hands of someone you love. It is devastating to the human spirit...and no one chooses it.

I'd just like to say this is one of the clearest, best posts I've ever read online.

This is what I've been thinking about how Josh was grooming the boys. The behavior is similar - it's sadistic. It's a person who KNOWS what they have in mind, who KNOWS what their agenda is, and who is systematically, bit by bit, torturing the person before them. I don't believe JP ever had an interest in being a father - a real father who puts the needs of his kids first - he saw them as objects to get his sexual kicks. Susan was an object to do other things - get him societal cover and legitimacy, get him kids, get him money. Abusers of this kind actually enjoy watching how much people work to try to struggle with them, because they know that they are poisoning them, or going to leave them, or going to use them for an online *advertiser censored* business, or whatever their plans are.

Sadly, that is one reason it is so hard to help someone in a relationship like this because if they are strong and capable, they work with it, find ways around it, think they can "manage" the situation.....and all the while, they are simply prey that the sadist is toying with.

But how many of us would support someone leaving a relationship because the husband keeps changing the PIN or won't let them have the car? We are always judging about whether someone should or should not leave. We don't see and support people in this kind of systemic, emotional abuse until it's too late. We need to find ways to help people see the warning signs of behavior right in the dating relationship so they never marry someone with the behavior JP exhibited as a teen. JMO