New Ownership

[SisterSocks]

DocW...Your intruder theory makes no sense whatsoever. Neither does any other intruder theory regarding this case. I believe that Burke and JonBenet were playing doctor or some other sexual game in which a cord was placed around her neck, perhaps in a "lead the prisoner" precursor to the sex play itself. When Burke inserted the paint stick into her vagina, unintentionally hurting her, she screamed and tried to get up. Burke panicked, afraid she'd tell their parents. He gave the neck cord a yank, and with his free hand, hit her on the head with the Maglite. Then he yanked the cord again, unfortunately holding it too long, causing her death. John and Patsy staged the coverup.

imo

No Ivy, If Burke had done this crime , he would have cracked by now!!

I believe that he had the power to make the skull fracture (since he can hit a baseball with a bat) although it does appear pointless to argue the point. He has been cleared.

I agree Patsy wrote the note.

SisterSocks

 

[Ivy]

SisterSocks, maybe Burke has cracked, and we just haven't heard about it. Or maybe he will crack in the future. Of course, there are some people who never crack. Maybe he's one of them. Anyway, his cracking or not cracking has nothing to do with whether he killed JonBenet.

Burke had the strength necessary to fracture JonBenet's skull with a baseball bat or a Maglite. Dr. Cyril Wecht said there was nothing about what was done to JonBenet that a kid Burke's age at the time couldn't have done. Dr. Michael Baden said Burke should be looked at. You people who blindly insist that Burke was incapable of clobbering JonBenet with enough force to crack her skull are dead wrong.

By the way, Burke was never cleared.

imo

 

[DocWatson]

DocW...Your intruder theory makes no sense whatsoever. Neither does any other intruder theory regarding this case. The fact is, there is no evidence of an intruder. NONE. The Hi Tec print is Burke's. The hair and fibers are John and Patsy's. The palm print on the basement door is Melinda Ramsey's. The degraded "foreign" DNA is either stutter resulting from the amplification process or innocent transfer of some kind. Last but not least, there's the note.

BC elsewhere has done a good job of listing all the intruder evidence and the Carnes ruling contains a 91-page discussion of it. Any single piece of it admittedly is subject to challenge (as is virtually any piece of evidence), but at this juncture, any claim that there is NO intruder evidence is not credible.

No intruder would leave a ransom note yet forget to take the the ransomed person with him, or at least the body. Patsy penned the note. You can see her exemplars by following the link in Shylock's posts. But of course, you probably won't do that.

I'm not qualified to judge Patsy's handwriting and neither are you, Shylock or any other amateur on this site. Instead, I accept the judgement of the EXPERTS who have and their conclusion is that she scores 4.5 on a scale of 0-5 where 5=no possibility she wrote the note. In short, your amateurish conclusion (which I don't doubt you believe) is highly improbable. BC's theory would be somewhat more plausible if either parent wrote the note, yet even he concedes Patsy did not.

I believe that Burke and JonBenet were playing doctor or some other sexual game in which a cord was placed around her neck, perhaps in a "lead the prisoner" precursor to the sex play itself. When Burke inserted the paint stick into her vagina, unintentionally hurting her, she screamed and tried to get up. Burke panicked, afraid she'd tell their parents. He gave the neck cord a yank, and with his free hand, hit her on the head with the Maglite. Then he yanked the cord again, unfortunately holding it too long, causing her death. John and Patsy staged the coverup.

Unfortunately, that scenario doesn't fit the evidence or speculations of any of the EXPERTS who also concede that sex play may have been involved. See Cyril Wecht's as just one illustration of the most elaborate such theory of which I am aware.

In particular, it fails to account for stun gun marks and some important forensic evidence: JBR's own flesh was found under her fingernails and that, coupled with abrasions on her neck strongly suggest she was struggling violently while being strangled. This is hardly the mark of an "accidental" killing (either your flavor or BC's) but most certainly is consistent with the scenario of a sadistic pedophile being the perp.

Your scenario also lacks plausibility in details. Where is Burke relative to JBR when he penetrates her with paintbrush? On top of her with her back to floor? Behind her, riding her like a pony? Leading her on foot, like a prisoner?
The blow that struck JBR could have felled a linebacker. I concur that a 9-year old could have achieved such force with a baseball bat swinging full force standing up, but I seriously doubt a 9 year old could have done so while sitting atop his sister using only a Maglite. Moreover, if his pulling on cord is choking her sufficiently to completely prevent her screaming further, what is the motive for such a savage blow? Conversely, if he's standing up walking her down the hallway (thereby giving him the possible leverage to deliver a blow that hard), under what conceivable scenario do you envision him inserting the paintbrush from that position? Even an amateur can see that this theory lacks common sense. 'Nuf said.

 

[DocWatson]

Doc Watson,

I don't concede there is OVERWHELMING evidence of an intruder. And in my theories the word "intruder" is a misnomer. A more proper term would be "fifth person in the house", invited in by a Ramsey. The Ramseys wouldn't be lying and carrying out a coverup to protect an intruder whom they didn't even know.

There is evidence of a fifth person being in the house that night, and maybe more than one.
JMO

I agree entirely: there is evidence WAS at least a fifth person in that house. Whether we call it "large amount" or "overwhelming" is a bit a matter of taste, but the point is it is not credible to dismiss that entire body of evidence, so any good theory of the case has to "deal with it" which your theories generally have.

I concur Ramseys wouldn't cover up to protect an intruder they didn't even know. And where your theory breaks down seriously is in supposing the parents would cover up either a brutal deliberate slaying of their daughter, on the one hand, or a sex game gone awry initiated by an older teen or young adult. Apart from that implausibility, your theory requires MASSIVE lying and cover-up by way too many agencies and individuals to be credible. If your theory only required a conspiracy between a handful of members of a single agency, such as BPD, then POSSIBLY we could accept this. But you theory requires collusion among BPD, DA's office, grand jury AND a federal district court judge!!!! Furthermore, it requires a District Attorney to knowingly lie in an affidavit (don't waste your breath talking about how Burke wasn't really "cleared" in that affidavit: apart from that point, the affidavit is replete with point blanks lies IF your theory is correct and IF the GJ had indeed solved the case, as you claim). Sorry, that theory doesn't compute! Indeed, I'd say logic and common sense reject its plausibility OVERWHELMINGLY!

 

[Ivy]

DocW, in BlueCrab's thread Fifth Person in the House? I challenged his reasons for thinking a fifth person, intruder or otherwise, may have been in the Rs' house when she was killed. My post is #3 on the thread.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5957

I knew you wouldn't look at Patsy's exemplars. You're scared to death you'd have to face the fact she wrote the phony ransom note, aren't you? One needn't be an expert to see that her handwriting matches that on the note, but if it's experts you want, David Liebman, former president of the National Association of Document Examiners, and Gideon Epstein, director of the forensics unit of the documents lab at the Immigration and Naturalization Service until he retired in 2000, are both convinced that Patsy wrote the note.

I don't care that my theory doesn't comply with others' sex play theories. My theory is logical as pertains to a BDI scenario, and it fits the evidence. Name one thing in my theory that goes against the actual evidence. You can't. Whether you admit it or not, there is no proof that a stun gun was used on JonBenet. NONE. And there is no evidence that she fought violently with her killer. NONE. She may have tried to loosen the neck cord, but that fits in with my theory that Burke yanked the neck cord, and in a panic, held it taut too long, unintentionally killing her. The fragmentary DNA under her nails was degraded and could have been there for days, especially given the fact she hadn't bathed for a while, and no one knows when the last time was that she washed her hands. There was no foreign blood or foreign tissue under her fingernails. As I said in my post, the DNA sample from her fingernails had to be either stutter from the amplification process or innocent transfer. One thing it is absolutely NOT, is evidence that she fought with her killer.

What difference does it make where Burke was relative to JonBenet when he stuck the paintbrush into her vagina? Your asking such a thing seems pointless, but as long as you did, here goes... I think that JonBenet was suppine on the floor and Burke was facing her, kneeling or lying on his stomach between her legs.

The head blow: Do some research. Then you'll know that a linebacker can fracture his skull by merely walking into a wall. You'll also know that a nine-year-old boy is perfectly capable of fracturing a linebacker's skull, as well as the skull of a six-year-old girl. "JonBenet was hit with enough force to knock down a 200 pound man" (or however it goes) is pure Ramsey spin.

Didn't you know that Carnes didn't have access to the police files? She based her decision solely on what she was fed by Lin Wood and Lou Smit. Carnes's "discussion" is riddled with errors.

imo

 

[Britt]

Ivy, great posts.

It's also possible it wasn't Burke who delivered the head blow. Burke might've choked JB into unconsciousness, and John and Patsy thought she was dead.

Then, as part of staging, one of them did the head blow in an attempt to invent an obvious cause of death for staging purposes, but the head injury did not bleed externally and wasn't visible, so they finished the staging with the "garrote"... OR

JB was in the throes of death, convulsing, etc, and one of the Ramseys delivered the head blow to finish her off/put her out of her misery. Why not call 911? Because their son had just sexually molested and killed (they thought) or mortally injured (not yet dead but going to be) their daughter. Better to stage it and invent the intruder.

By the way, obviously all of the above could have happened without involving Burke at all, with all of it - the molestation, the choking, the head blow - being inflicted by only Patsy and/or John.

 

[Ivy]

Britt, absolutely. Any of those scenarios would work, even without Burke's involvement. As I've said before, even though I'm a BDIer, there are some PDI and JDI theories, or at least portions of them, that make a lot of sense to me. BC's 5th person theory makes sense to me in many ways, too. The only theories that seem totally ridiculous are IDI theories.

imo

 

[Shylock]

I totally agree about the Stine weirdness... 'Splain that.

I still think there may be a chance that Susan Stine is a bull dyke that's in love with Patsy.

 

[Blazeboy3]

DocW, in BlueCrab's thread Fifth Person in the House? I challenged his reasons for thinking a fifth person, intruder or otherwise, may have been in the Rs' house when she was killed. My post is #3 on the thread.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5957
I knew you wouldn't look at Patsy's exemplars. You're scared to death you'd have to face the fact she wrote the phony ransom note, aren't you? One needn't be an expert to see that her handwriting matches that on the note, but if it's experts you want, David Liebman, former president of the National Association of Document Examiners, and Gideon Epstein, director of the forensics unit of the documents lab at the Immigration and Naturalization Service until he retired in 2000, are both convinced that Patsy wrote the note.
I don't care that my theory doesn't comply with others' sex play theories. My theory is logical as pertains to a BDI scenario, and it fits the evidence. Name one thing in my theory that goes against the actual evidence. You can't. Whether you admit it or not, there is no proof that a stun gun was used on JonBenet. NONE. And there is no evidence that she fought violently with her killer. NONE. She may have tried to loosen the neck cord, but that fits in with my theory that Burke yanked the neck cord, and in a panic, held it taut too long, unintentionally killing her. The fragmentary DNA under her nails was degraded and could have been there for days, especially given the fact she hadn't bathed for a while, and no one knows when the last time was that she washed her hands. There was no foreign blood or foreign tissue under her fingernails. As I said in my post, the DNA sample from her fingernails had to be either stutter from the amplification process or innocent transfer. One thing it is absolutely NOT, is evidence that she fought with her killer.
What difference does it make where Burke was relative to JonBenet when he stuck the paintbrush into her vagina? Your asking such a thing seems pointless, but as long as you did, here goes... I think that JonBenet was suppine on the floor and Burke was facing her, kneeling or lying on his stomach between her legs.
The head blow: Do some research. Then you'll know that a linebacker can fracture his skull by merely walking into a wall. You'll also know that a nine-year-old boy is perfectly capable of fracturing a linebacker's skull, as well as the skull of a six-year-old girl. "JonBenet was hit with enough force to knock down a 200 pound man" (or however it goes) is pure Ramsey spin.
Didn't you know that Carnes didn't have access to the police files? She based her decision solely on what she was fed by Lin Wood and Lou Smit. Carnes's "discussion" is riddled with errors.

imo

I agree but also disagree...fwiw; what you believe is probably exactly what THEY want you to believe; imho it's much larger/bigger than we can globally(most of us) "comprehend/believe"... and THEY are probably laughing at "us" all the way to the bank$$$ ??? :slap:

CARNES: Maybe the reference JohnRamsey refers to (300 lb person) came from Kim Carnes (info/songs?)? ...just maybe?
http://abcnews.go.com/onair/DailyNews/chat_ramsey0320.html
John Ramsey: Burke was a 9-year-old child when JonBenet was killed. The blow to JonBenet's head was powerful enough to bring down a 300-pound man. This blow was administered by an adult male. So, to presume that a 9-year-old child could so viciously and brutally attack another child is foolishness.
http://members.aol.com/david1atl/a-zsongs.html
Kim Carnes has written, co-written and/or recorded almost 300 songs in her 30-year career. What follows is an A-to-Z (A-to-Y actually, since she's not yet managed to record either "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" or "Zorro's Theme") listing of those songs, their writers, their performers (if written, but not performed by Kim) and the original place where the song can be found. Where cover versions are concerned, the location of Kim's version will be listed. Many of the newer songs have yet to be recorded. For additional information on any song, including publishers, you may visit www.bmi.com and search the BMI archives. Additional info can also be found at the ASCAP site, www.ascap.com. Because numerous sources were used to compile this information, the listings might vary a bit, such as the occasional use of first initials instead of first names. I've tried to be as complete and as consistent as my sources will allow. As you scroll through the titles, be sure to keep a look out for gerunds missin' their final "g" -- all 20 of them. --DB
p.s.where we agree-to-disagree...it's not a "Burke murder!"! :blushing: