New to this case and new to the forum

[dogmatica]

Hmm, I don't really see any similarities, can you be more specific? That case was a while back so perhaps I am not remembering it well, but that was 2 girls and it was never released by police exactly how they were attacked and/or found. I guess they both occurred in wooded areas, but I don't see any other similarities; perhaps I'm just missing them.

Indeed - they have never released any details whatsoever about the manner of death or any abuse sustained prior to or after death of the Delphi girls. They were female and significantly older than the WM3's victims. I'm not seeing any connections whatsoever.

 

[Alyssa Edwards]

ok so I have completely finished reading the Jessie Misskelley trial transcripts, I have also gone back and re-read all of his statements both pre-conviction and post-conviction. I am convinced that he is guilty. Yes there are a lot of inconsistencies in both his multiple confessions and his denials but I think it's pretty obvious he was there when those boys were murdered. I also feel that you can tell in a lot of his statements that he is trying to "dumb himself down" I think this is most noticeable in the contrast from his original statements to the detectives (where I feel his information flows and he does not seem to be under pressure from detectives)to his first interviews with his own lawyers, he seems by this time to be creating this "dumb" Jessie character. I will next move on to the Echols and Baldwin documents.

One thing that I also want to look into that keeps popping up is the statements from Aaron Hutchinson , I have not thoroughly looked into this child yet, who exactly was he ? does he claim he had witnessed the defendants in cult activity?

Again, I welcome information from both sides of the fence as I am still relatively new!

Thanks

 

[dogmatica]

ok so I have completely finished reading the Jessie Misskelley trial transcripts, I have also gone back and re-read all of his statements both pre-conviction and post-conviction. I am convinced that he is guilty. Yes there are a lot of inconsistencies in both his multiple confessions and his denials but I think it's pretty obvious he was there when those boys were murdered. I also feel that you can tell in a lot of his statements that he is trying to "dumb himself down" I think this is most noticeable in the contrast from his original statements to the detectives (where I feel his information flows and he does not seem to be under pressure from detectives)to his first interviews with his own lawyers, he seems by this time to be creating this "dumb" Jessie character. I will next move on to the Echols and Baldwin documents.

One thing that I also want to look into that keeps popping up is the statements from Aaron Hutchinson , I have not thoroughly looked into this child yet, who exactly was he ? does he claim he had witnessed the defendants in cult activity?

Again, I welcome information from both sides of the fence as I am still relatively new!

Thanks

You are a critical thinker. Keep us posted on your findings.

 

[Alyssa Edwards]

You are a critical thinker. Keep us posted on your findings.

Thank you!

 

[leslievernon]

oh man this is taking me back... i spent years dedicated to this.. until the alford pleas (when they got out, still maintainig their innocence) in 2011. all the effort, the thoughts.. it all just stopped. to me it felt like in limbo. but after a while i too let it go, i mean wtf.

i still think they didn't do it.

you said aaron hutchinson.. IIRC it was this little boy that the cops used to re-enact the crime at the ditch, and not jessey misskelley, the mentally challenged boy who confessed (and then recanted) as to how they all done it, killed the 3 boys in some kind of bizarre sexual violence fantasy... that was just a weird decision. they let aaron, even if he said he was a witness, re-enact this but not one of the alleged perpetrators. the cops never took jessy to the crime scene.
yeah, the wm3 police made some strange decisions during all that..

aaron hutchinsons story was as wild and crazy as misskelleys.
my advise is, specificly with this case - don't listen too much to rumors.. work your way up to all the testings, they did it through all the years, echols relentlessly wanted testings, and doing that they found some incriminating evidence reg. the stepfather of one of the victims.
and this only opened up a whole other can of worms..

 

[dogmatica]

oh man this is taking me back... i spent years dedicated to this.. until the alford pleas (when they got out, still maintainig their innocence) in 2011. all the effort, the thoughts.. it all just stopped. to me it felt like in limbo. but after a while i too let it go, i mean wtf.

i still think they didn't do it.

you said aaron hutchinson.. IIRC it was this little boy that the cops used to re-enact the crime at the ditch, and not jessey misskelley, the mentally challenged boy who confessed (and then recanted) as to how they all done it, killed the 3 boys in some kind of bizarre sexual violence fantasy... that was just a weird decision. they let aaron, even if he said he was a witness, re-enact this but not one of the alleged perpetrators. the cops never took jessy to the crime scene.
yeah, the wm3 police made some strange decisions during all that..

aaron hutchinsons story was as wild and crazy as misskelleys.
my advise is, specificly with this case - don't listen too much to rumors.. work your way up to all the testings, they did it through all the years, echols relentlessly wanted testings, and doing that they found some incriminating evidence reg. the stepfather of one of the victims.
and this only opened up a whole other can of worms..

Interesting how you mention Misskelley "confessed then recanted". Which one did he recant? Confession 1? Confession 2? Confession 3? Confession 4? Confession 5? Confession 6? I've lost count how many times he confessed. Was it the ones prior to conviction? The ones post conviction? Did he have his hand on the bible when he reccanted, like he did the time he confessed whilst his own lawyer begged him not to?

Rumors? You don't need to listen to any rumors at all - you need simply look at the TOTALITY of the evidence, in combination with the many, many, many confessions of Misskelley, along with the 500 and the behavior, pre and post conviction of the twice convicted WM3.

The Hobbs hair? It's beyond astounding that supporters will dismiss the totality of the evidence, both physical and circumstantial against the WM3, and all the confessions...but a single hair that might be Hobbs', which so very easily can be explained by secondary transfer...BINGO! WE HAVE OUR MAN! Really?

 

[leslievernon]

alright, calm down a bit, please.

this is the Nth time i am confronted with everything that you said...

let's get right to the evidence:
1. no DNA from any of the WM3 was found at the scene. ..helpful, actually, if you claim you're innocent.
2. can you tell me exactly which shoelace from which shoe was used to bind which ankle and/or wrist from which victim?

... yes, there we go. that was tough figuring that all out back then but it was a collaborative effort and imo a very valuable one. the state crime lab could not figure out which belonged to which, i mean.. like they cared. the laces were cut, in order to bind up the boys. also important.

a "reddish beard hair", was the only thing found on one of the laces. mtDNA confirmed it was terry hobbs. look at a pic of him during the trial - red hair, red beard.

now i don't say that it had to have come from steven's lace - secondary transfer, i got you - but.... the ice is very thin here - could it be from mike's lace.. from chris' lace... highly interesting, especially when they found no hair from any other parent.

you put that strong piece of evidence together with everything else we know about this suspect - a suspect that NEVER was a suspect for the WMPD, a guy who was NEVER asked by police until 14 f*ing years after the crime.....

why would they ignore a stepfather like that?

this guy had a violent temper, hated his own son (and vice versa) and HAD a window of opportunity on may 5th - don't believe me - read the affidavit of his good pal david jacoby, who was with him some of the time during the search, but not all the time... hobbs thought he had an alibi through jacoby, but jacoby f*ed his alibi up, by giving a detailed, credible account of that evening.

hey - don't listen to me, stick with misskelleys outrageous story... the way i see it, this crime was far more realistic.

 

[leslievernon]

now it all comes back:
aaron... son of vicki hutchinson. this woman told a wild story to cops and also in court - she played detective to lure damien into her house and then drove with him to a satanic ritual.... they all heard it, they all believed it... and then she publicly said it was all a LIE. ... a f*ing LIE, that helped get 3 teens convicted. it goes without saying that everything her son said, is shyte.

 

[dogmatica]

alright, calm down a bit, please.

this is the Nth time i am confronted with everything that you said...

let's get right to the evidence:
1. no DNA from any of the WM3 was found at the scene. ..helpful, actually, if you claim you're innocent.
2. can you tell me exactly which shoelace from which shoe was used to bind which ankle and/or wrist from which victim?

... yes, there we go. that was tough figuring that all out back then but it was a collaborative effort and imo a very valuable one. the state crime lab could not figure out which belonged to which, i mean.. like they cared. the laces were cut, in order to bind up the boys. also important.

a "reddish beard hair", was the only thing found on one of the laces. mtDNA confirmed it was terry hobbs. look at a pic of him during the trial - red hair, red beard.

now i don't say that it had to have come from steven's lace - secondary transfer, i got you - but.... the ice is very thin here - could it be from mike's lace.. from chris' lace... highly interesting, especially when they found no hair from any other parent.

you put that strong piece of evidence together with everything else we know about this suspect - a suspect that NEVER was a suspect for the WMPD, a guy who was NEVER asked by police until 14 f*ing years after the crime.....

why would they ignore a stepfather like that?

this guy had a violent temper, hated his own son (and vice versa) and HAD a window of opportunity on may 5th - don't believe me - read the affidavit of his good pal david jacoby, who was with him some of the time during the search, but not all the time... hobbs thought he had an alibi through jacoby, but jacoby f*ed his alibi up, by giving a detailed, credible account of that evening.

hey - don't listen to me, stick with misskelleys outrageous story... the way i see it, this crime was far more realistic.

Being emphatic doesn't make one hysterical. I'm quite calm, thank you.

1. No DNA was found from anyone at the scene - supporters use this all the time and it's bunk. This isn't CSI the TV show - if you actually do a little research (besides watching crime dramas) you'd know DNA is not nearly as huge an "A-HA!" moment as it is on TV. Circumstantial evidence is used all the time for convictions. Their DNA not being found at a muddy, soggy crime scene is not in any way, shape or form an exoneration. DNA is not required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt someone's guilt. An incidental hair that may belong to the stepfather of one of the kids is doesn't mean anything. All those kids were at Hobbs' house at different points. I live alone and have short hair and have found plenty of long hairs around my house - means absolutely nothing.

2. Huh? No, why would I know that and what does that have to do with anything? You want to bring up the shoelaces? How about the fact that all 3 boys were tied with THREE distinctive style knots? So Hobbs wrangled these 3 boys, tied them each up one at a time, used totally different knots for each and then inflicted all that damage? Let's attempt a little critical thinking here.

Get your facts straight - the hair most certainly was NOT confirmed to be Hobbs. He couldn't be eliminated as the owner of said hair - and even if it was his - you need to look up and try to understand secondary transfer. Not finding any other parent's hair means nothing as well. Nothing.

You completely disregard the overwhelming totality of the evidence of the twice convicted WM3 and go on a hair (that MAYBE belongs to Hobbs) and the fact that he's a , and come up with -the WM3 are innocent and it was Hobbs? Wow.

So you'll disregard Echols' 500 but Hobbs purported temper and the assumption he "hated" his stepson sealed the deal for you? How about Echols' violent and disturbing temper and propensity for violence that was DOCUMENTED by SEVERAL health care professionals before he killed those children? Talk about choosing your facts to fit your (incredibly far fetched) narrative. You point to flimsy non evidence against Hobbs and rug sweep everything on the WM3. Either you haven't actually done any real research, or you are being obtuse.

Alibis? What was Jason's alibi again? Oh right - he didn't even attempt to present one. How about Echols? Oh right - he got busted on the stand LYING about his alibi - decimated. Misskelly? Sorry, the wrestling "alibi" has been debunked.

And how can any rational person possibly explain someone confessing over and over and over again, pre AND post conviction (when there was absolutely nobody to "coerce" him), knowing things that weren't public, the whiskey bottle, swearing on the bible that he and Echols and Balwdin DID this, while his lawyer pleads and demands he STOP confessing?

If Misskelley was so incredibly malleable and convinced to say anything anyone would tell him, why did that ability to be so easily manipulated vanish when it came to his own lawyer demanding he stop confessing, when it would be in his best interest? You can't have it both ways. You can't make up facts to fit your narrative - it doesn't work that way.

 

[Alyssa Edwards]

Update on my progress: currently working my way through the “500” documents. Well this confirms what I already thought, Damien Echols is one sick and twisted individual .

What are supporters thoughts on the “500” ? How do they feel about Damien when they read that he attempted to gouge the eyes out of a class mate, admitted to drinking human blood and stating it made him feel like a God, planned on having a son with his gf and then sacrificing the baby and threading to cut his mothers throat ?? And I’m not even half way through these documents.

I’ve also read some of his arrest documentation, red flags going up when I’m reading that he thinks that whoever committed with the murders would feel happy about it and that 1 boy was probably “cut up more than the others”

Was there actually unidentiified urine found in the boys ?

 

[Userid]

oh man this is taking me back... i spent years dedicated to this.. until the alford pleas (when they got out, still maintainig their innocence) in 2011. all the effort, the thoughts.. it all just stopped. to me it felt like in limbo. but after a while i too let it go, i mean wtf.

i still think they didn't do it.

you said aaron hutchinson.. IIRC it was this little boy that the cops used to re-enact the crime at the ditch, and not jessey misskelley, the mentally challenged boy who confessed (and then recanted) as to how they all done it, killed the 3 boys in some kind of bizarre sexual violence fantasy... that was just a weird decision. they let aaron, even if he said he was a witness, re-enact this but not one of the alleged perpetrators. the cops never took jessy to the crime scene.
yeah, the wm3 police made some strange decisions during all that..

aaron hutchinsons story was as wild and crazy as misskelleys.
my advise is, specificly with this case - don't listen too much to rumors.. work your way up to all the testings, they did it through all the years, echols relentlessly wanted testings, and doing that they found some incriminating evidence reg. the stepfather of one of the victims.
and this only opened up a whole other can of worms..

Not to be rude, but your information on AH is a bit inaccurate.

He was brought to the crime scene because he had stated he (AH) was also there; and that he saw the boys being murdered (at one point, by men who were smoking grass and speaking another language; at another point, by the WM3). So, to suggest police didn't have a reason to bring him to the crime scene is misguided, considering he said he was there. They were following up on the lead. The WMPD are very much attacked by supporters for not investigating certain leads (i.e. TH) thoroughly enough, but when they actually do (as was the case with AH and these Spanish-speaking men he claimed to have seen, etc.), they're still go attacked.

Basically, the WMPD questioned AH and ultimately deemed his story of being there in the woods (hiding while the murders took place) as false. It was actually a good thing they followed this lead and dismissed it, in my view. His story was dismissed because it changed drastically. At one point, he does insert the WM3 at the woods, but again, his story was never believed by police.

The cops more than likely never took JM to the crime scene because they didn't have permission by his parents and/or lawyers to do so. Only AH (along with his mom VH) was ever taken to the crime scene, as far as we all know.

 

[Userid]

the laces were cut, in order to bind up the boys. also important.

a "reddish beard hair", was the only thing found on one of the laces. mtDNA confirmed it was terry hobbs.

now i don't say that it had to have come from steven's lace - secondary transfer, i got you - but.... the ice is very thin here - could it be from mike's lace.. from chris' lace... highly interesting, especially when they found no hair from any other parent.

A couple inaccuracies here also:

First, the only lace that was "cut" were the lace(s) use to bind MM. The remaining 4 laces on the other two boys were NOT cut in half, as they all contained aglets on both ends.

Second, it was never "confirmed" that the beard "was TH's." What was found was, there was 1% of the population of WM where that hair could have come from, and TH was 1 (out of about 150 people total, if I remember correctly) within that 1% where it could have come from. 1 out of 150 people isn't definitive confirmation. Much like the much-maligned fiber evidence that supporters dismiss, hair evidence also isn't a "smoking gun" in this instance either.

Third, the hair was found in the bindings that were on MM. Those bindings (most likely) consisted of one long shoe lace cut in half, considering both bindings only had one aglet each. In other words, many believe this lace came from the killer's own shoe. Regardless, secondary transfer could have easily occurred because whoever removed all of the laces would have been handling them and tying the knots -- this would especially occur if the laces were removed "all at once" from the other boys' shoes.

 

[leslievernon]

hey - that was from the top of my head.... it's ca. 7 years since then...
yes i guess you are right. jessies story also changed a few times.. recanted a few times... how credible is it in the end?

echols and baldwin maintained their innocence from day 1. i am sure you will hear some prison rats saying otherwise...

i don't care how much the WMPD actually cared about wm3 supporters... they did not do their job - where do you begin in case of murder - from the outside in or rather from the inside out - clearing parents, friends, relatives first...? that did not happen here.

 

[Userid]

now it all comes back:
aaron... son of vicki hutchinson. this woman told a wild story to cops and also in court - she played detective to lure damien into her house and then drove with him to a satanic ritual.... they all heard it, they all believed it... and then she publicly said it was all a LIE. ... a f*ing LIE, that helped get 3 teens convicted. it goes without saying that everything her son said, is shyte.

True, she did try to insert herself in this case, for whatever reason.

It was never a question of whether what her son said was shyte -- it was always known that it was.

What wasn't known until recently was if whether she herself was lying, which as you just said, she admitted she was. Even so, however, her testimony didn't really weigh heavily on the jury. All she admitted at trial, was that DE took her to an esbat (a cult meeting). That was literally the only thing she "revealed" and the only thing she "lied about." So her revelation that she lied about it is pretty much a moot point, considering there was other evidence of DE being in a cult supplied by Jerry Driver, Dale Griffis (whose testimony is panned, but nevertheless was probably effective on said jury), etc.

 

[leslievernon]

never said there was a smoking gun.

"reddish beard hair".... you can give me population % all you want.
how much do you know about hobbs?

look i am not excusing myself when i say this is very long ago, but i watched EVERYTHING, literally everything that man had to say regarding that day... and it stinks. and he had more reason to kill his stepson (ergo his friends too cause they witnessed it) than any of the wm3.

 

[Userid]

hey - that was from the top of my head.... it's ca. 7 years since then...
yes i guess you are right. jessies story also changed a few times.. recanted a few times... how credible is it in the end?

echols and baldwin maintained their innocence from day 1. i am sure you will hear some prison rats saying otherwise...

i don't care how much the WMPD actually cared about wm3 supporters... they did not do their job - where do you begin in case of murder - from the outside in or rather from the inside out - clearing parents, friends, relatives first...? that did not happen here.

There are things JM gets right in all of the confessions, even in the earlier ones, in all honesty. I've gone over them verbatim and I won't do so again (laziness), other than to point out just one: he names the correct victim (SB) to the correct injury he suffered (facial wound), and names the second correct victim (CB) to the correct injury he suffered (genital wound). Although details change, the players involved and the overall story of JM's do not.

I will agree that TH should have been more thoroughly investigated, but I do not think he wasn't because he and the WMPD were in cahoots. JMB's dad was the only parent that was thoroughly investigated in this crime; none of the other parents, including the biological fathers of the boys, were either.

 

[Userid]

never said there was a smoking gun.

"reddish beard hair".... you can give me population % all you want.
how much do you know about hobbs?

look i am not excusing myself when i say this is very long ago, but i watched EVERYTHING, literally everything that man had to say regarding that day... and it stinks. and he had more reason to kill his stepson (ergo his friends too cause they witnessed it) than any of the wm3.

I know a lot about TH, and this case in general -- if not more than you, as much as you do. You said it was "confirmed" it was his hair, which it never was.

I watched everything also; and read everything, including Cally's. If you're basing your belief on what you perceive, you're no better than the people who convicted the WM3 in the first place.

Fact of the matter is, neither the WM3 nor TH had much of a reason to kill any or all of these boys.

 

[Userid]

Update on my progress: currently working my way through the “500” documents. Well this confirms what I already thought, Damien Echols is one sick and twisted individual .

What are supporters thoughts on the “500” ? How do they feel about Damien when they read that he attempted to gouge the eyes out of a class mate, admitted to drinking human blood and stating it made him feel like a God, planned on having a son with his gf and then sacrificing the baby and threading to cut his mothers throat ?? And I’m not even half way through these documents.

I’ve also read some of his arrest documentation, red flags going up when I’m reading that he thinks that whoever committed with the murders would feel happy about it and that 1 boy was probably “cut up more than the others”

Was there actually unidentiified urine found in the boys ?

A lot of supporters dismiss DE as "just another goth kid," and tend to overlook this report.

The urine mystery has never been confirmed. There is a police report on Cally's where Gitchell inquires about urine in the stomach of one of the boys (to Perretti, the autopsy doctor, I believe), but there is no other mention of it anywhere else. It did gain more traction though when it was revealed that a "yellow" stain was tested by forensics. There was a yellow stain on two items: one of the socks, and on one of the eyelets of one of the shoes. Many believe this could be urine, but it was never confirmed by the crime lab as being urine. The stains, if memory serves, were described as "drops," just to give you an idea of the sample size.

 

[leslievernon]

@Userid
yes, there was a foreign lace. ok, then they were not all cut. i should apologize, i was writing all per memory. i am not trying to be obnoxious or pompous here, my memory did not exactly improve over the years.

you won't be able to change my opinion, and i won't be able to change yours. i had countless passionate discussions with non-supporters... but guess what, i don't wanna do it anymore... the 500.. the candle wax.. the lake knife.. the confessions.. i am tired of it and it seems like warming up old soup. i might be completely wrong with all this... sure, wrong all the way and they did it, but it doesn't matter cause the case is dead.

really, i respect your opinion, but, i came to a conclusion years ago, and that won't change esp. since there was no more activity, new evidence or anything since they got out, that could lead to a change of mind.

 

[leslievernon]

@Userid
you said:
neither the WM3 nor TH had much of a reason to kill any or all of these boys.

i see that different. if TH hurt steven really bad, and i mean really.. in front of the other 2.... what is he supposed to do?
who do YOU think had a reason?