New to this case - what should I read/watch?

[justthinkin]

Just like with the WM3, it's mainly circumstantial evidence. The boys were "into" Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" and Michael told a friend at school on May 5, 1993, that they were going to their "secret hideout" (which was a manhole, like the TMNT). TH mentioned, I believe in his 2007 WMPD interview, but it may have been earlier, that Ryan, Chris' brother, said something about "something that covered a hole or something" and that they were going to "check it out." There's no further information about whether or not they did "check it out," however.

We know that the WMPD conducted a cursory investigation of some of the sewers, but it was not thorough and yielded nothing that they considered important at the time. I don't know if what they found is still available or not. Like I said earlier, if the WMPD had been more thorough, it's possible that they could have found evidence at the time. It's probably much too late now. If you watch the 2007 interview, you will see TH indicating with hand motions an object that would be the same size and shape of a manhole in the area when he talks about Ryan's statement.

As I'm sure you know, two tennis shoe prints (or partial prints) were found at the discovery ditch. When the police got Jessie's tennis shoes from Buddy Lucas, they didn't match. Damien and Jason wore boots. The prints were consistent with size 9 1/2 or 10 men's shoes, and they were the only prints discovered at or near the ditch. TH wears a size 9 1/2 shoe.

According to Pam, both Stevie and TH had just bought new shoes within a few days of the murders. TH's had double laces. According to one of Pam's sisters (who now posts at the Blackboard), she remembers that shortly after the murder, TH was wearing only one lace in each shoe. Also, she said that Pam had thrown TH's shoes in the swimming pool (which wasn't functional and was more or less a garbage bin). The pool was covered over shortly thereafter, but apparently TH had taken the shoes out before then because they were not in the pool when it was investigated and dug up later (in 2007, I believe). In fact, he was so bold as to ask for his shoes back when the pool was unearthed. So, it appears that TH wanted to make those shoes disappear before they could be matched to the prints at the scene.

There is/was a manhole that was about 100 feet away from the discovery ditch that is/was one of those conical topped ones, which would have been large enough inside for the murders to have taken place there as I have outlined. Both JMB and Pam had mentioned their sons' interest in TMNT during the investigation, so it's obvious that TH knew about this, too.

Like I said, most of this is circumstantial. The footprints are physical, but the shoes that could match them are long gone. However, all of these circumstantial indications are more than there was/is against the guys in prison. I know there's more that I'm not remembering, but I'll stop for now and add later if I think of it.

Nothing about that manhole is circumstantial evidence. That is pure conjecture.

 

[David366]

Jessie is still contending that the little boys were beaten up "with a big ol' stick" but that stick has not been shown to contain any biological indication of it having been used to beat up the little boys.

There was more than one stick in those woods.

 

[justthinkin]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the evidentiary hearing in December will provide much more evidence than we now have. True, right now there is not a lot of physical evidence against TH, except for the hairs. Although, there is more physical evidence linking TH to the crime than there is or ever was linking the WM3 to the crime. Right now, except for the hairs, all that points to TH is circumstantial. However, IIRC, circumstantial evidence is all they had on the WM3 (except, of course, the coerced, false statement of JM). Unfortunately for the State, the ASSC has decided that the case needs another look. They can no longer rely on good ol' Satanic Panic and the likes of Dale Griffis. The tide is turning. The hearing is coming, and justice will finally be done.

Terry Hobbs will not be on trial at the evidentiary hearing. The court will not allow it. The defense attorneys know this, but it the meantime getting supporters to spread the word brings in more $$$. Great tactic to reach those who just follow along and don't think for themselves.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I guess your implication is that the police didn't get the right one?

How about Jessie's explanation that there was some sort of struggle with the boys? He said he ran Michael down and brought him back. Yet, Michael's body was found away from the other two. The discovery site showed no sign of a struggle, and I simply won't believe that three teens (some of whom were drunk) could leave a crime scene that pristine, especially in limited light.

Of course, I don't believe that the discovery ditch was the crime scene. Neither did the police at first. They have to cling to that theory because it's what Jessie said. Yet, there's no evidence that a struggle took place.

Damien and Jason both had long hair at the time of the murders, yet none of their hair was found with the bodies. The only hairs that have been identified (other than hair from the victims) has excluded the WM3 as their sources and has strongly implicated TH and his friend as their sources. And the State doesn't want to do further testing on the hairs.

The only blood at the scene needed to be revealed with Luminol and appears to be where the bodies were laid when they were removed from the ditch. Yet, according to Jessie, Chris was castrated with a big knife. Jessie didn't say that Jason castrated Chris in the water, either. That sort of action would have produced massive bleeding. Yet, virtually no blood was found at the scene.

Damien and Jason wore boots, yet the only footprints found at the scene were from tennis shoes, size 9 1/2 or 10. Jessie had given Buddy Lucas his tennis shoes (supposedly) right after the crime. When the police retrieved those shoes, the prints didn't match the ones at the scene.

What did the police retrieve from the scene? They retrieved, in part, two hairs which are strong mtDNA matches to TH and his friend with whom he was playing guitars shortly before the boys disappeared. They found two footprints (apparently exiting the discovery ditch) and made plaster prints of them. They were judged to be size 9 1/2 or 10, and TH wears a size 9 1/2 shoe. Some time later, the shoes that he had at the time went missing.

Jessie's statements (none of them) hold up to scrutiny against what it now known in this case. His statements were coerced and false. He was obviously manipulated by unethical police to tell them what they needed to hear to close the case and make the town happy.

There is strong circumstantial evidence that implicates TH in this crime. The upcoming evidentiary hearings should shed further light on this case. I'm confident that Judge Laser will understand the unanimous decision of the ASSC and will realize that "all means all" and will therefore order the further testing requested by the defense.

 

[David366]

There is strong circumstantial evidence that implicates TH in this crime.

No, there's not. That one hair is strong circumstantial evidence that Terry Hobbs had physical contact with his stepson at some point, hardly surprising since they lived in the same house.

There is zero evidence that Terry Hobbs had any involvement in the crime. The defense is desperately trying to foster reasonable doubt by any means necessary (which is their legal right), and braindead murder groupies are repeating their flimsy BS.

The correct three murderers were convicted in 1994 based on overwhelming evidence, and nothing has changed.

 

[ziggy]

What are the other factors that directly tie to the case?

The deposition of someone who never bothered to contact LE during the time of the investigation, but waited 16 years to say, "Oh yeah, I saw him blah blah blah."

The hilarious JMB tapes - what a hoot those are.

That he had "anger problems?"

The "TH Theory" is not a theory. It's a hypothesis. A hypothesis doesn't become theory until it's proved, and there's no proof whatsoever that TH was involved with the deaths of the children.

Well thank you so much for answering your own question! There were indeed more factors to the "theory". And some of them carry more weight than others. Nonetheless there they are and so the assertion that the hair was a single, solitary factor was disingenuous.

You are correct in your hair splitting of the word theory, however it can also be used in the context of "a belief that can guide behavior"; so the finger pointing behavior at TH is guided by a belief that is supported by certain facts or circumstances that vary in the weight given to them by others.

 

[ziggy]

No, there's not. That one hair is strong circumstantial evidence that Terry Hobbs had physical contact with his stepson at some point, hardly surprising since they lived in the same house.

There is zero evidence that Terry Hobbs had any involvement in the crime. The defense is desperately trying to foster reasonable doubt by any means necessary (which is their legal right), and braindead murder groupies are repeating their flimsy BS.

The correct three murderers were convicted in 1994 based on overwhelming evidence, and nothing has changed.

Overwhelming evidence - you lost me forever right there.

Things will change. I could give a rats about WM3, really am not a fan, not a pen pal, just a law student and I don't care about them personally either way - I have no emotional attachment, but I would like to see the real killers behind bars or executed, and I do believe that the most dishonorable thing our justice system can do is incarcerate or execute an innocent man. So, let's just be sure about their guilt before we do something we can't undo.

You can't honestly say there was overwhelming evidence of guilt in these trials with a straight face. Really. You may give what was presented more weight than others and that's fine, but there was sketchy, sketchy evidence my friend. With new technology, some of the weight that was given to the admissible evidence may change. We also now have challenges in court to what constitutes as "an expert" and our occult expert witness would not pass that tests in todays courts. Let's bring this limited evidence up to speed and then see how overwhelming it is...

If you are truly in search of justice you will not fear the appeals process or a new evidentiary hearing. The only people who seem to fear this process and who would like to halt it are those who believe the WM3 are guilty. I find that fascinating. Don't you?

 

[iluvmua]

Overwhelming evidence - you lost me forever right there.

Things will change. I could give a rats about WM3, really am not a fan, not a pen pal, just a law student and I don't care about them personally either way - I have no emotional attachment, but I would like to see the real killers behind bars or executed, and I do believe that the most dishonorable thing our justice system can do is incarcerate or execute an innocent man. So, let's just be sure about their guilt before we do something we can't undo.

You can't honestly say there was overwhelming evidence of guilt in these trials with a straight face. Really. You may give what was presented more weight than others and that's fine, but there was sketchy, sketchy evidence my friend. With new technology, some of the weight that was given to the admissible evidence may change. We also now have challenges in court to what constitutes as "an expert" and our occult expert witness would not pass that tests in todays courts. Let's bring this limited evidence up to speed and then see how overwhelming it is...

If you are truly in search of justice you will not fear the appeals process or a new evidentiary hearing. The only people who seem to fear this process and who would like to halt it are those who believe the WM3 are guilty. I find that fascinating. Don't you?

That's because they ARE guilty. Please tell me why after 18 years each and every single appeal has been denied. if they are so innocent.

The ONLY reason they are getting a hearing in the first place is because their DNA was not found at the crime scene.

It's not because the people over this case think they are innocent.

Nothing new has changed, there is no "new" DNA evidence that will free Damien from Death Row & Jason & Jessie from prison.

This is just another attempt to shift the blame at someone else.

Truthfully, the "Free The West Memphis Three" has always been "Free Daimen Echols from Death Row". It's never been about anyone but Damien.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

That's because they ARE guilty. Please tell me why after 18 years each and every single appeal has been denied. if they are so innocent.

Most of the appeals were heard by Judge Burnett. He was not going to overturn his own rulings, especially with his political aspirations. When the ASSC did hear an appeal, the cards were stacked against the WM3 because, thanks to the good ol' boy network, appellate courts very rarely overturn trial courts. For an evidentiary hearing to be granted, extraordinary circumstances needed to be present. In this case, the extraordinary circumstance was Burnett's callous disregard for the new DNA law and his failure to grant an evidentiary hearing based on it. The ASSC corrected that failure by ordering the hearing.

The ONLY reason they are getting a hearing in the first place is because their DNA was not found at the crime scene.

Exactly! When Burnett failed to grant this hearing, he was in error. The ASSC practically called him stupid for this, and their decision for a hearing was unanimous. Furthermore, let's ask ourselves why the DNA of the WM3 has not been found at the discovery ditch. Could it be that they were not involved in the crime? Then, let's ask ourselves whose DNA was at the scene and, more importantly, how it got there. Based on where the hairs were found, the hair in the ligature doesn't seem to support the idea of innocent transfer. The hair on the stump could easily be from transfer. Then, the critical question becomes from whom the hair was transferred.

It's not because the people over this case think they are innocent.

I presume that, to make a sweeping statement like this, you have interviewed the "people over this case" and they have told you this information. Otherwise, you simply cannot attribute this thought process to them. I have no doubt that some of the principals in this case still believe that the WM3 are guilty. However, I seriously doubt that Judge Laser, the principal person now in charge of this case, feels that way. If he does, IMO it is a violation of his oath of office. This hearing is to give a new look at all of the evidence, old and new, in this case to see if a new trial is warranted. If a new trial is ordered, the original verdicts will be vacated and we start from scratch - presumed innocent.

Nothing new has changed, there is no "new" DNA evidence that will free Damien from Death Row & Jason & Jessie from prison.

Again, I assume that, to make a statement like this, you have examined all of the evidence available. Unless you have done so, I think that we should wait and see what is divulged at the hearing. We may be surprised. What we do know about the DNA that has been tested is that it does not belong to the WM3. Anything else is speculation at this point.

This is just another attempt to shift the blame at someone else.

No, it's an effort to see that justice is done. It hasn't been so far. I hope it will be soon.

Truthfully, the "Free The West Memphis Three" has always been "Free Daimen Echols from Death Row". It's never been about anyone but Damien.

I can't speak for all supporters, but for me, it's not all about Damien. I want all three falsely incarcerated young men freed. Damien's case is the most critical because he is sentenced to death. Additionally, I want justice for those three little boys whose deaths have gone too long without it.

 

[David366]

Truthfully, the "Free The West Memphis Three" has always been "Free Daimen Echols from Death Row". It's never been about anyone but Damien.

Yeah, you never hear about rock stars dropping by prison for a chat with Jason, then going on CNN to talk about how deep and spiritual he is. So unfair.

 

[David366]

You can't honestly say there was overwhelming evidence of guilt in these trials with a straight face.

OK, I'll concede that the evidence at trial was not overwhelming. Much of the best evidence against the WM3 was not presented at trial. Jesse's confession to Buddy Lucas. Damien's confession to William Jones. Jesse's multiple confessions in February 1994. The blood on the ground at the crime scene. The jury for Damien & Jason didn't get to hear any of Jessie's confessions.

Let me rephrase: The evidence that the WM3 were guilty is overwhelming, and the juries fortunately got it right based on the limited evidence presented at trial.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

If you go on callahan's and read all of the pre-trial hearings, you will readily see that Burnett excluded much more of the defense's evidence than that from the prosecution. Therefore, the jury didn't get to hear a lot of evidence that was exculpatory for the WM3. Jessie's post-conviction statements (and his pre-conviction statements) could not be used against Damien and Jason because he refused to repeat those lies under oath at their trial. IMO, part of the reason that the juries falsely convicted the WM3 is because they didn't get to hear all of the evidence. The evidentiary hearing, which doesn't involve a jury, will be different, thank goodness!

 

[iluvmua]

CR is correct, there was a LOT that Judge Burnett did not allow at the trial.
Hopefully Judge Laser will let ALL the evidence from both sides in.

There were reasons why Jessie's confessions were never heard in front of the jury.

Hearing should be very interesting

In the original trials, Both the Pros and the Defense did not have all of their evidence included in the trials.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

IMO, since the ASSC ruled that "all means all" in this case, Judge Laser will let everything into the hearing. Since a jury will not be present at the hearing, no harm can come from whatever is introduced. I welcome the introduction of everything. None of the supporters that I know are hesitant to let in any piece of evidence.

I also believe, because of the same logic, that Judge Laser will order the additional DNA/other testing that the defense seeks. Again, this should put to rest much of the confusion that has plagued this trial from the beginning. If the blood on the pendant and shirt can be tested further, the source can be found, definitively. If DNA from TH and Jacoby is collected, the hairs currently attributed to them by mtDNA only can be proven to be theirs with a certainty. The defense will have a chance to destroy Jessie's statements and show them to be the coerced false statements that they are. Yes, the hearing will be interesting indeed!

 

[justthinkin]

Hasn't he already given permission for any and all testing to take place, but has put a time limit on it?

That was my understanding.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I think (and I could be wrong) that Laser ruled that the defense has to file individual briefs for each piece of evidence that they want tested by a certain date (I forget what it is). Then, Laser will rule on whether or not he will allow the testing of each individual piece of evidence - an individual ruling for each piece of evidence. If he orders the testing, then there is a deadline of 90 days within which all testing must be back. I'll investigate a little and see if I can pin this down better, but, bottom line, I don't think he's ordered the testing yet.

ETA: When Laser issued the March 14, 2010 order, I questioned an attorney as to whether or not he had actually ordered testing. Here is his response: "The Judge has not decided that any additional DNA or other forensic testing will be allowed. We should have his decision on what tests are allowed in 45 days under the briefing schedule he is using." The defense has to file motions (not briefs) requesting testing of each specific piece of evidence, and he will rule on each one. Following the time line Judge Laser established, we should know what, if anything, will be tested on or about May 1, 2011.

 

[justthinkin]

Okay, thanks. I thought I'd read they had something like 60 days to get the testing done, but perhaps it was 60 days for something else.

 

[little_miss_smart]

I am new to the case. Being from the UK I have heard nothing about until today. I was browsing Court TV and stumbled upon it. I've read a little bit today, here and Court TV. I have just started watching the HBO documentary that CR posted. At this moment in time I have no idea what happened but if I had to say one way or another I would say they are innocent, just from the bits I have picked up today. I may change my opinion the more I discover.

 

[little_miss_smart]

Just finished watching the HBO documentary - the first one. I believe there is a second doc made?

I obviously haven't followed the case as much as some of you here but these kids are completely innocent imo. Common sense tells me that. Echols was a bit strange for the community he lived in, but that doesn't make him a murderer. The young girl who didn't want to be pictured(I think it was a girl) was lying! The ex inmate - again lying!

 

[Compassionate Reader]

If you have the time, you can go to the callahan's site ( http://www.callahan.8k.com/ ) and read all the legal proceedings posted there. Be sure to read all the pretrial hearings, too, in order to get the true picture of what happened. Also, there are two books about the case available on amazon.com. One (Devil's Knot) is well-documented while the other one (Blood of the Innocents) is more sensationalized. Both books, although outdated, provide basic information about the case. I've written a summary of the case to date on the Blackboard if you're interested:

http://www.wm3blackboard.com/forum/index.php

I will admit that it's a biased account, leaning toward innocence. It does rehearse the basic facts and some of the newer occurrences as well.

Also available on the Blackboard and online are specials by Aphrodite Jones and other television specials about the case.