New witness !!! Has this been discussed?

[gheckso]

I came across this some time ago and thought this is probably a good spot in this thread for it.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc"]Never talk to the police[/ame]

I agree with Reedus23 in that if you had any "street smarts" one would obviously know their rights to be silent.

Also find it odd that you mention moral decency and this crime in the same sentence. I'm of the opinion that the two are mutually exclusive.

 

[kyleb]

You make the assumption that he committed/witnessed a heinous crime.

It's not really an assumption, it's a conclusion based on having reviewed the evidence by which a jury found him guilty beyond any reasonable doubt, and considerably more evidence which further substantiates that conclusion.

Someone street smart, guilty or not guilty, would have never talked to LE on their own.

There's of examples in this case itself of people who only would have come out lighter in the pocketbook by layering up, though of course those people are at least in retrospect obviously not guilty. That said, in Misskelley's case I get the impression that he simply lacked the legal smarts to realize that participation in the murders to the extent which he confessed to was enough to make him legally responsible for them. So he wrongly imagined himself as just a scared witness, but would have been right in not bothering to involve a lawyer had that actually been the case.

Also find it odd that you mention moral decency and this crime in the same sentence. I'm of the opinion that the two are mutually exclusive.

Well according to Misskelley's many confessions, he didn't set out to take part in any murders. He lacked the moral decency to refrain from ruffing up children, let alone to stop Baldwin and Echols from doing so, but had no suspicion that they would go any further than that. He also had enough moral decadency to confess at least as many times as are documented, and to demonstrate remorse by crying during his first confession, when returning to the scene of the murders according to that confession, and in the presence of Lee Rush and Buddy Lucas. So yeah, Misskelley's no saint by any stretch, but he's still demonstrated far more moral decadency that Baldwin and Echols combined.

 

[reedus23]

It's not really an assumption, it's a conclusion based on having reviewed the evidence by which a jury found him guilty beyond any reasonable doubt, and considerably more evidence which further substantiates that conclusion.

Fair enough, it would require an assumption if you were putting yourself in the place and time the purported "responsibility" was taken, or you are using the benefit of hindsight, coupled with your conclusions, as you say, that they evidence convinces you he committed the crime.

There's of examples in this case itself of people who only would have come out lighter in the pocketbook by layering up, though of course those people are at least in retrospect obviously not guilty. That said, in Misskelley's case I get the impression that he simply lacked the legal smarts to realize that participation in the murders to the extent which he confessed to was enough to make him legally responsible for them. So he wrongly imagined himself as just a scared witness, but would have been right in not bothering to involve a lawyer had that actually been the case.

Coming out a little lighter in the pocket book is better than spending time in jail for something you didn't do. As to the other people, I think it's an overstatement to say obviously, but I understand you're trying to drive home your point. I also know you understand that just because you didn't commit a crime doesn't mean you shouldn't lawyer up. Miskelley's legal smarts has nothing to do with it. People who are truly street smart don't talk to LE period without at least first consulting a lawyer. That doesn't mean they hire them to do the talking for them, but they at least consult with one to get advice on whether or not one is needed and more generally how to handle the situation. Misskelley simply strikes me as naive and slow.

 

[kyleb]

People who are truly street smart don't talk to LE period without at least first consulting a lawyer.

I've got a couple examples from my own rebellious youth where confessing directly to the police was preferable to consulting a lawyer, I'd be happy to share them upon request. Granted, my experience doesn't encompass anything along the lines of murders, but laywering up would have got me less cash at best and likely at least some light penalty at that, while coming clean directly to the cops got me off scott free. Given what's documented regarding Misskelley's rebellious youth he almost surely had such experiences of his own to draw from, or at least knew of others who did.

Misskelley simply strikes me as naive and slow.

Misskelley's certainly far from the sharpest tool in the shed, but that doesn't even come close to refuting his many confessions and the rest of the evidence which substantiates them.

 

[reedus23]

I've got a couple examples from my own rebellious youth where confessing directly to the police was preferable to consulting a lawyer, I'd be happy to share them upon request. Granted, my experience doesn't encompass anything along the lines of murders, but laywering up would have got me less cash at best and likely at least some light penalty at that, while coming clean directly to the cops got me off scott free. Given what's documented regarding Misskelley's rebellious youth he almost surely had such experiences of his own to draw from, or at least knew of others who did.


Misskelley's certainly far from the sharpest tool in the shed, but that doesn't even come close to refuting his many confessions and the rest of the evidence which substantiates them.

You don't need to share unless you feel the need. I would certainly agree with you that if what is involved is relatively minor, no, it doesn't always make sense to get a lawyer. I've certainly owned up to my fair share of beers when I was a minor and nearly every time was let off with a warning. If you're looking at any type of jail time though, yes, I'd strongly encourage everyone to consult a lawyer before you ever talk to LE.

 

[kyleb]

Yeah, underage drinking is one of the examples I was alluding to, but in a case of a car accident which could've resulted in me being locked up had I been less than forthright with the cops. But again, I get the impression that Misskelley imagined his participation in the murders to the extent which he confessed was relatively minor, lacking an understanding of the laws which say otherwise. Had he actually been simply a scared witness as it seemed he imagined himself, laywering up would've likely proven superfluous. Besides, it's not like Misskelley had the means to be shopping for much of a lawyer anyway.

 

[reedus23]

Yeah, underage drinking is one of the examples I was alluding to, but in a case of a car accident which could've resulted in me being locked up had I been less than forthright with the cops. But again, I get the impression that Misskelley imagined his participation in the murders to the extent which he confessed was relatively minor, lacking an understanding of the laws which say otherwise. Had he actually been simply a scared witness as it seemed he imagined himself, laywering up would've likely proven superfluous. Besides, it's not like Misskelley had the means to be shopping for much of a lawyer anyway.

Glad to hear it worked out well for you and hopefully no one was seriously injured. Regarding Misskelley, and assuming his confession is accurate, being present while 2 friends mutilate and kill 2 kids is a pretty darn big deal, even if you're just sitting there only watching. I don't even think I would have waited until LE was questioning me, I would have started making calls immediately. The truly street wise guys know how to call lawyer after lawyer asking questions and getting pieces of advice over the phone here and there and piecing it together where they essentially got legal advice for free because they actually never hire the lawyer. They know how to play the game. Having said that, I don't think Misskelley would have been that street smart to pull that off.

 

[ceecee30]

I've got a couple examples from my own rebellious youth where confessing directly to the police was preferable to consulting a lawyer, I'd be happy to share them upon request. Granted, my experience doesn't encompass anything along the lines of murders, but laywering up would have got me less cash at best and likely at least some light penalty at that, while coming clean directly to the cops got me off scott free. Given what's documented regarding Misskelley's rebellious youth he almost surely had such experiences of his own to draw from, or at least knew of others who did.


Misskelley's certainly far from the sharpest tool in the shed, but that doesn't even come close to refuting his many confessions and the rest of the evidence which substantiates them.

Having my own rebellious expericiences (and granted our legal and law enforcement is completely different) and also experiences with police due to my mental illness

I have learnt to keep my mouth shut, our police forces are all run as a somewhat independent group but they're the most corrupt bunch..

They tend to victimize the victim and support the guilty party.. We have just had a incident here in south Australia, where the police knew that the woman was in danger (victim of domestic violence and harassment by ex) yet there was apparently nothing they could do... 3 months later she ended up dead at the hands of her ex.

I also had the police harass me when my motorbike was stolen, after giving them numerous statements and calling the shopping centre to provide them with CCTV footage, they still continued to harass me as apparently my bike (in their eyes) wasn't worth stealing.. They did this whilst I was 7 months pregnant..

Needless to say I don't call the police here for anything. And if I need to I make sure I consult my lawyer first..

If misskelley was truly street smart I don't think he would have spoken with LE like he did.
(All my personal opinion only)

 

[gheckso]

Regarding Misskelley, and assuming his confession is accurate

And this is where I'm quite perplexed, which confession are we assuming is accurate? what particulars are true? Whats is a lie and what isn't? The first confession was in no way accurate to the crime. One can say his lying here but not there just to fit whatever predetermined opinion they may have.

 

[kyleb]

Glad to hear it worked out well for you and hopefully no one was seriously injured.

A friend of mine unfortunately was, which is why I was compelled to call in the authorities even though I risked bringing considerable trouble on myself in doing so. Granted, I wasn't at fault for the accident, only blew orange on the breathalyser, and passed the field sobriety tests handily. I suspect things wouldn't have gone so well for me had I been less than completely cooperative though.

I don't even think I would have waited until LE was questioning me, I would have started making calls immediately.

That's certainly the rational thing to do, but even the smartest of people aren't always rational, and are generally less so after particularly traumatic experiences.

our police forces are all run as a somewhat independent group but they're the most corrupt bunch..

From what I've seen there's horror stories like the ones you mention all over the world, some much worse in Aus and elsewhere. Power tends to corrupt, and police are inherently vested with power. I still contend that speaking directly to authorities is sometimes the best course of action though, and in turn that Misskelley likely would've come out serving less time if he'd come forward on his own, plead guilty, and testified against Baldwin and Echols.

 

[reedus23]

And this is where I'm quite perplexed, which confession are we assuming is accurate? what particulars are true? Whats is a lie and what isn't? The first confession was in no way accurate to the crime. One can say his lying here but not there just to fit whatever predetermined opinion they may have.

Oh you're absolutely right. I was simply trying to continue the discussion with kyle but had to make sure it was understood that I was accepting his (kyle's) version for argument's sake only in order to carry on.

Reality is, I wouldn't even call that a confession. He continuously tried to hit the moving target until LE told him he's right. It didn't matter if he got it wrong 10 times, as soon as he finally got it the way LE wanted it, they ran with it. Again, DO NOT TALK TO LE WITHOUT TALKING TO A LAWYER FIRST if you are ever in a similar situation.

 

[reedus23]

Having my own rebellious expericiences (and granted our legal and law enforcement is completely different) and also experiences with police due to my mental illness

I have learnt to keep my mouth shut, our police forces are all run as a somewhat independent group but they're the most corrupt bunch..

They tend to victimize the victim and support the guilty party.. We have just had a incident here in south Australia, where the police knew that the woman was in danger (victim of domestic violence and harassment by ex) yet there was apparently nothing they could do... 3 months later she ended up dead at the hands of her ex.

I also had the police harass me when my motorbike was stolen, after giving them numerous statements and calling the shopping centre to provide them with CCTV footage, they still continued to harass me as apparently my bike (in their eyes) wasn't worth stealing.. They did this whilst I was 7 months pregnant..

Needless to say I don't call the police here for anything. And if I need to I make sure I consult my lawyer first..

If misskelley was truly street smart I don't think he would have spoken with LE like he did.
(All my personal opinion only)

There are many good cops, but there are also some very bad ones out there, just like everything else. Sorry to hear you ran into some bad ones. The problem is, that even some of the good ones are susceptible to getting tunnel vision when they're under tremendous pressure to solve a crime and even the good ones can run into the tendency of twisting, shaping and taking statements out of context if it helps to close a case out.

 

[reedus23]

A friend of mine unfortunately was, which is why I was compelled to call in the authorities even though I risked bringing considerable trouble on myself in doing so. Granted, I wasn't at fault for the accident, only blew orange on the breathalyser, and passed the field sobriety tests handily. I suspect things wouldn't have gone so well for me had I been less than completely cooperative though.

I hope he/she is doing better now. Much respect given for doing what you did after the fact. I've seen too many instances where even best of friends will leave the scene to avoid trouble and leave there friend there with no help.

That's certainly the rational thing to do, but even the smartest of people aren't always rational, and are generally less so after particularly traumatic experiences.

People certainly do react differently to traumatic events, especially at the time. But this was nearly a month that had passed and it's not like they didn't know LE and the public were all talking about them.

From what I've seen there's horror stories like the ones you mention all over the world, some much worse in Aus and elsewhere. Power tends to corrupt, and police are inherently vested with power. I still contend that speaking directly to authorities is sometimes the best course of action though, and in turn that Misskelley likely would've come out serving less time if he'd come forward on his own, plead guilty, and testified against Baldwin and Echols.

Misskelley arguably would've come out serving less time if he'd talked to a lawyer first. If he had there's no confession. If there's no confession there's no arrests. If there's no arrests, there's no trials and so on.

 

[kyleb]

I hope he/she is doing better now.

His knee will never be what it was, and that ended what could've been a successful career in football, the doctors managed to put him back together reasonably well considering the circumstances.

But this was nearly a month that had passed and it's not like they didn't know LE and the public were all talking about them.

From what I've seen there were various ideas floating around regarding who done it, and while Echols was certainly prominent in that, Baldwin wasn't particularly so and Misskelley hardly so if all. Rather, after nearly a month of dead ends the police brought Misskelley in the hopes that he might might've heard something useful, not that he'd taken part in the murders himself. And sure it was a month later, but it was also a very traumatic event.

Misskelley arguably would've come out serving less time if he'd talked to a lawyer first. If he had there's no confession. If there's no confession there's no arrests. If there's no arrests, there's no trials and so on.

I arguably would've put myself in less risk of trouble by not calling the cops when my friend's knee was smashed against my car door. The guy who backed into us pleaded for as much, but there would've been no justice at that.

 

[ceecee30]

There are many good cops, but there are also some very bad ones out there, just like everything else. Sorry to hear you ran into some bad ones. The problem is, that even some of the good ones are susceptible to getting tunnel vision when they're under tremendous pressure to solve a crime and even the good ones can run into the tendency of twisting, shaping and taking statements out of context if it helps to close a case out.

It comes with the territory of having a mental illness unfortunately. Unfortunately the law gives the police power to detain me at anytime they see fit due to my mental illness being documented..

That being said in sure there are wonderful LE out there, it's just unfortunately mental illness and the stigma of my particular condition... They don't seem to comprehend or understand.

I have learnt to voice record everything on the sly so that certain people can no longer play the victim in front of the police

 

[reedus23]

I have learnt to voice record everything on the sly so that certain people can no longer play the victim in front of the police

Smart idea. Some lawyers here now advise their clients to be up front whenever they are being questioned by LE and let the officer know, I am recording this conversation for my own protection, even on simple traffic tickets. It's a shame it's gotten to that point, because there is a lot of good done by LE but at the same time if you don't record it, and you end up in court, the court will believe the LEO over you 9 times out of 10.

 

[reedus23]

His knee will never be what it was, and that ended what could've been a successful career in football, the doctors managed to put him back together reasonably well considering the circumstances.

I can sympathize. Blew out my knee when I was 20 in a car accident and had to have the ACL, MCL and tendon replaced and that ended my baseball career, not that it would have gone anywhere anyways.

From what I've seen there were various ideas floating around regarding who done it, and while Echols was certainly prominent in that, Baldwin wasn't particularly so and Misskelley hardly so if all. Rather, after nearly a month of dead ends the police brought Misskelley in the hopes that he might might've heard something useful, not that he'd taken part in the murders himself. And sure it was a month later, but it was also a very traumatic event.

Well word to the wise then, learn from his mistakes. If you ever find yourself in a similar position, get to a lawyer before you talk to LE. In his situation, a lawyer could have worked a deal that would have resulted in far less time than he got.

I arguably would've put myself in less risk of trouble by not calling the cops when my friend's knee was smashed against my car door. The guy who backed into us pleaded for as much, but there would've been no justice at that.

To be fair, Misskelley didn't call LE as it was happening or immediately after.

 

[kyleb]

In his situation, a lawyer could have worked a deal that would have resulted in far less time than he got.

Sure, I'm still trying to figure out why Misskelley didn't accomplish anything along those lines through Stidham. Given the documentation I've read, Misskelley maintained his guilt to Stidham for some two to six months before changing his story, and I've yet to see a reasonable explanation for how Stidham came to believe Misskelley was innocent within that time frame. My best guess is that Stidham was simply blinded by the glory which would come from getting an innocent man free from high profile murder charges, and hence mislead himself into believing that's what he was doing.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I replied but had to take a step back. This case has touched a nerve that just sends me over the top.

I will comment again later but for now, I keep praying that someone will get the real murderer. I want them exposed and led into the light, So this can be put to rest for those poor families and the WM3 can be exonerated for good.

 

[reedus23]

I replied but had to take a step back. This case has touched a nerve that just sends me over the top.

I will comment again later but for now, I keep praying that someone will get the real murderer. I want them exposed and led into the light, So this can be put to rest for those poor families and the WM3 can be exonerated for good.

It didn't take me long to figure out that this is one of those cases that does cause people to step back from time to time. :floorlaugh: I don't know if anyone involved in LE will have the guts to truly touch this case again.

After having read through I think just about everything (probably some later expert reports that I haven't fully read), and having watched the documentaries, there are lots of things that raises question marks or concerns for me, but the thing that really disturbs me the most is the Judge. Judges are human. They bring with them the influences of their lifetime. As a result, some are going to tilt one way while others tilt the opposite. It's impossible to avoid no matter how hard you attempt to be objective. I understand that and expect that.

Outside of some of the rulings though, there were 2 things that truly bothered me. First, I have never seen a Judge allow a documentary to be filmed during the course of a trial(ironically that is also what likely led to the WM3 eventually being released too). Everyone was involved in that from LE, to DA, to defense attorneys, but the Judge had the power and authority to control that.

Second, is his reactions after the fact. His statements go beyond being an impartial arbiter of the law. In fact, he nearly pleads the WM3's guilt more than the DA in the follow up interviews. It's one thing to state you think the verdicts and your rulings were supported by the evidence, but he goes beyond that (Kyle, you can catch those quotes in the documentaries. I don't have the time or the inclination to go paste them here now).