New witness !!! Has this been discussed?

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We can agree about the investigation. I don't think there's much question about how they handled the crime scene, whether you believe the WM3 guilty or innocent. I'm still just not sure if I'm sold on the splashing water on the bank. That might get rid of a good majority of the blood evidence, but every single drop?

There was blood found, see various examples of luminol testing and results below.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/luminol.html
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/luminol_bridge.html
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/luminol_dsmith.html
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/luminol_tanderson.html
 

1. It was not proven to be blood. See my discussion above with another poster and note the link to the precedent-setting case re: the unreliability of Luminol testing and why Luminol testing alone is not admissible in court as proof of the presence of blood.

2. There are other explanations of the areas of blood, but many people don't want to accept any other explanation other than the "blood" (if it is blood) being the result of the murders.
 
That's like saying there was no blood found by dismissing the evidence that there was (in an even if there was blood found, there wasn't kind of way) .. And honestly do you think the boys weren't killed there? They bled, there was even blood on their faces in images of them lying on the bank post mortem .. So why deny the blood? I don't really think that helps the supporters argument anyway?
 
I'm curious now .. How many supporters believe the boys were killed elsewhere?
 
That's like saying there was no blood found by dismissing the evidence that there was (in an even if there was blood found, there wasn't kind of way) .. And honestly do you think the boys weren't killed there? They bled, there was even blood on their faces in images of them lying on the bank post mortem .. So why deny the blood? I don't really think that helps the supporters argument anyway?

As I was trying to say before, I believe that any blood that was on the ditch bank didn't get there during the murders. Yes, I believe that Christopher, Michael and Steven were killed in a different location and that the drainage ditch was just a dump site. The wmpd believed that, too, until they got Jessie started talking. Then, they tried to force the evidence to support his outlandish tales.

Additionally, the bodies were lain on the ditch bank upon recovery, as you pointed out. Some of the blood might have been there as a result of that action, too. The most important thing about the blood (or really the lack thereof) is that the amount of blood that would have been present had the prosecution's theory been accurate would have been tremendously more than was indicated by the Luminol testing, if that testing did, in fact, find blood.
 
For those that believe the boys were killed elsewhere were they in the woods when they came across their killer, or somewhere else? And why returned to the woods when another dump site may have been chosen which could have concealed them for longer?
 
For those that believe the boys were killed elsewhere were they in the woods when they came across their killer, or somewhere else? And why returned to the woods when another dump site may have been chosen which could have concealed them for longer?

I can't speak for everyone, but, personally, I believe that they were killed in the woods. The new affidavits support this idea as does the Manhole Theory. Some believe that they were killed elsewhere and the bodies were taken to the woods and dumped. However, IMO, that wouldn't explain why the bikes were dumped, too. That's why I believe that the killer (or killers) came upon the boys (or vice versa) in the woods. The crime happened in the woods, just not on the ditch bank. IMO, the authorities have never found the true crime scene.
 
I'd set this thread aside to deal with the accusation of dishonesty against me in the other thread, but since this thread is moving again I want to start by addressing this claim:

Half-hitches are referred to in the link I provided as half-knots.
Rather, half knots are referred to in the link you provided, and they tied in a different manor than half hitches as the animations on the pages I just linked demonstrate. Would you please acknowledge these simple facts?
 
I'd set this thread aside to deal with the accusation of dishonesty against me in the other thread, but since this thread is moving again I want to start by addressing this claim:


Rather, half knots are referred to in the link you provided, and they tied in a different manor than half hitches as the animations on the pages I just linked demonstrate. Would you please acknowledge these simple facts?


Half-knots or half-hitches are basically the same knot, involving one looping of the rope. The only difference I see is that in one, two ends are used whereas in the other, one end is looped further down on the rope. Both are useless for any restraint purpose as they would come undone quickly. However, back to the basic point, there were not three different types of knots used in tying the victims. Implying this to be the case was an attempt by the prosecution to prove that there were three different killers. Whether the shoe laces were looped by using the ends or by looping one end around the lace further down is immaterial. These knots are not totally different, as the prosecution implied. Even the link you provided above admits this fact.
 
I can't speak for everyone, but, personally, I believe that they were killed in the woods. The new affidavits support this idea as does the Manhole Theory. Some believe that they were killed elsewhere and the bodies were taken to the woods and dumped. However, IMO, that wouldn't explain why the bikes were dumped, too. That's why I believe that the killer (or killers) came upon the boys (or vice versa) in the woods. The crime happened in the woods, just not on the ditch bank. IMO, the authorities have never found the true crime scene.

Oh I'm with you now .. Yes I can't see how they would be returned there either. I mean if you had a car you'd take them to a better dump site .. Not to where they were last seen IMO.
 
Half-knots or half-hitches are basically the same knot, involving one looping of the rope. The only difference I see is that in one, two ends are used whereas in the other, one end is looped further down on the rope.
Both can actually be tied either two loose ends or one, though each are arguably more suitable for the situations depicted on the pages I lined for them respectively. However, in this case both the square knots, created from two half knots rather than half hitches, were on one shoelace that connecting the left wrist and left ankle of Michel Moore. Hence, at least one of those square knots was made starting with a half knot using only one loose end.

Both are useless for any restraint purpose as they would come undone quickly.
Yes, but both are used to start markedly different knots. For example one starts the common shoelace knot with a half knot, not a half hitch.

However, back to the basic point, there were not three different types of knots used in tying the victims.
Lisa Sakevicius testified to there being square knots, knots which were two to four half hitches, and and knots she described as "a half hitch with a figure eight". In regard to the latter she further elaborated that the half hitch was "tied after the figure eight", which best I can tell is a description of a butcher's knot (here's a page which uses that same terminology as Sakevicius to describe it). Again that is a simple knot, but tied in notably different manor that either a square knot or any series of half hitches.

HThese knots are not totally different, as the prosecution implied.
The prosecution didn't imply the knots were "totally different", but rather noted that Sakevicius to testified fact that: there were three notably different types of knots used to tie up the boys. Please come to terms with that simple fact.
 
That's like saying there was no blood found by dismissing the evidence that there was (in an even if there was blood found, there wasn't kind of way) .. And honestly do you think the boys weren't killed there? They bled, there was even blood on their faces in images of them lying on the bank post mortem .. So why deny the blood? I don't really think that helps the supporters argument anyway?

That's why I think I said earlier, for me it isn't even really a question of whether you believe they are inncocent or guilty. To me, it is simply a question that is raised in my mind regardless of guilt or innocence but if one is trying to get to the ultimate answer, probably needs to be answered. So I guess my question is, whether it was the WM3 or someone else, are you satisfied that that is the location of the initial assaults? I simply have a hard time believing that there would be zero blood found at the scene. Some leaf. Some branch. Somewhere, there would have been blood found. If it was the site of the initial attacks, it truly calls into question the investigators and if they were that sloppy, it calls into question their entire investigation in my humble opinion.
 
I'm curious now .. How many supporters believe the boys were killed elsewhere?

I don't know if I consider myself a supporter, but I believe either 1. The boys were likely initially assaulted elsewhere or 2. The investigators were inept, calling into question their entire investigation. That doesn't mean investigators did nothing right during the investigation, but anything they did do needs to be reviewed closely and not just taken at face value.
 
Oh I'm with you now .. Yes I can't see how they would be returned there either. I mean if you had a car you'd take them to a better dump site .. Not to where they were last seen IMO.

The Mississippi River is nearby. It shouldn't have been hard to get the bodies there, unless you were afraid that your car (or van) would be recognized.
 
I don't know if I consider myself a supporter, but I believe either 1. The boys were likely initially assaulted elsewhere or 2. The investigators were inept, calling into question their entire investigation. That doesn't mean investigators did nothing right during the investigation, but anything they did do needs to be reviewed closely and not just taken at face value.

Or both!
 
Both can actually be tied either two loose ends or one, though each are arguably more suitable for the situations depicted on the pages I lined for them respectively. However, in this case both the square knots, created from two half knots rather than half hitches, were on one shoelace that connecting the left wrist and left ankle of Michel Moore. Hence, at least one of those square knots was made starting with a half knot using only one loose end.

Don't know what that proves.

Yes, but both are used to start markedly different knots. For example one starts the common shoelace knot with a half knot, not a half hitch.

So?

Lisa Sakevicius testified to there being square knots, knots which were two to four half hitches, and and knots she described as "a half hitch with a figure eight". In regard to the latter she further elaborated that the half hitch was "tied after the figure eight", which best I can tell is a description of a butcher's knot (here's a page which uses that same terminology as Sakevicius to describe it). Again that is a simple knot, but tied in notably different manor that either a square knot or any series of half hitches.

Restating Sakevicius' testimony doesn't prove anything to me. The knots were common knots, not specialty knots, as the prosecution implied by stressing how "different" they were.

The prosecution didn't imply the knots were "totally different", but rather noted that Sakevicius to testified fact that: there were three notably different types of knots used to tie up the boys. Please come to terms with that simple fact.

IMO, the prosecution did imply that the knots were totally different. They did so in order to bolster their theory that three people had participated in the murders. Obviously, for some people (including some on the jury), this deception worked.

This discussion is getting us nowhere. You have your opinion and I have mine. I will not change my opinion regardless of how many animations, etc. you post. This is not advancing the discussion of the new affidavits which this thread was discussing before it was led astray.
 
That's why I think I said earlier, for me it isn't even really a question of whether you believe they are inncocent or guilty. To me, it is simply a question that is raised in my mind regardless of guilt or innocence but if one is trying to get to the ultimate answer, probably needs to be answered. So I guess my question is, whether it was the WM3 or someone else, are you satisfied that that is the location of the initial assaults? I simply have a hard time believing that there would be zero blood found at the scene. Some leaf. Some branch. Somewhere, there would have been blood found. If it was the site of the initial attacks, it truly calls into question the investigators and if they were that sloppy, it calls into question their entire investigation in my humble opinion.

I always thought it was, but you raise some good points .. the entire investigation was flawed IMO.
 
IMO, the prosecution did imply that the knots were totally different.
Where exactly, in your opinion, did the prosecution do what you claim? Please quote trial transcripts so every can see exactly what you are referring to for themselves

the entire investigation was flawed IMO.
Everything is flawed. Perfection only exists in the realm of imagination.
 
Where exactly, in your opinion, did the prosecution do what you claim? Please quote trial transcripts so every can see exactly what you are referring to for themselves

From Fogleman's Closing Argument:

The defense also wants to suggest, somehow this was a serial killer. Well, number one, I submit to you the proof shows that one person not only did not commit this crime--but could not. One person--to believe that one person did this, you'd have to believe that one person controlled three active eight-year-olds. Number one. Number two, you've got evidence that there were multiple weapons used. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that the weapons used on the left side of the head and the weapon on the right side of Michael Moore's head were not the same. Use your common knowledge and common sense. Uh--you can look and see that by looking at it. You had those two, you've got a knife--you got at least--at least three different weapons.

And then you got the knots. Remember us going--spending all that time talking about the knots and the different knots? Well, on one of the kids--Christopher Byers, you got double half hitches--right wrist right ankle. Same thing--left wrist left ankle. Tied identically. Then you move to Michael Moore. You've got on the left--he's got square knots on his wrist and square knots on his ankle. Identical on that left side. On the right side, he's got half hitches both places. And then you've got Stevie Branch. On the left side, he's got half hitches. And on the right side, it looks like the village idiot tied it--you've got on one, half hitch with a loop and on the other--one of them, three half hitches and you've got this figure eight all wrapped around there.


It is important to note that the reason Fogleman was rehashing the knots here was to prove that there was not one killer, as the defense implied was possible, but multiple killers. IMO, this shows that the prosecution was using the knots, specifically the implication that the knots were entirely "different," to drive home their theory of multiple killers.
 
Nothing in what you quoted from Fogleman implies the "entirely" and "totally" you ascribe to him. His recounting the specifics of the knots which Sakevicius previously testified to is factual, while your recounting of what you quoted from him is not.
 

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