Found Deceased NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 *Arrest* #2

[Tortoise]

Today the court is expected to hear evidence from a private investigator hired by the accused's legal team.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12286563

 

[jamjim]

9:27am - One of the things Prof Smith tells the jury is that attitudes towards sexuality are always in "constant change". She says it is a myth that sex is only for reproductive purposes. It's now commonly a "source of pleasure" for both people partaking.

Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence's overseas witnesses stream into court

 

[Tortoise]

Gosh. Really?

 

[JG123]

She says it is a myth that sex is only for reproductive purposes. It's now commonly a "source of pleasure" for both people partaking.

Hahahahahahahaha. Oh my god that's one of the funniest sentences I've read in a long time. Are we living in 1645?!

 

[DanceCard]

. It's now commonly a "source of pleasure" for both people partaking.

Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence's overseas witnesses stream into court

What an odd statement!

 

[Kikixxxx]

Today the court is expected to hear evidence from a private investigator hired by the accused's legal team.

Grace Millane murder trial: Sexual preferences and accused's 'life through Tinder' canvassed

i didnt realise legal aid covered private investigators !

 

[jamjim]

"Professor Clarissa Smith, an expert in sexual cultures at the United Kingdom's University of Sunderland, is the first witness for the defence this morning.

"Sex is a key feature of popular culture," Smith said. "Sexuality is always in constant change."

*advertiser censored* and sex would have previously been hidden and not talked about, she says but there have been significant revelations in intimacy and what it means to be a "sexual person".

Smith describes BDSM as an umbrella term for a whole range of activities that can include all sorts of normative sexuality.

All things that some consider "kinky" can be included in BDSM, she says.

Defence lawyer Ron Mansfield asks: “Some see it as humiliating or dominating towards woman”.

Smith says that while there are elements of humiliation in BDSM, it's about playing with the experience of humiliation in a safe environment or a safe context."

Grace Millane murder trial: Defence case continues with more expert witnesses

 

[jamjim]

Can someone tell the defence to stop clutching those straws please?

 

[mrjitty]

I am probably missing something here, but where in the defence is the obvious potential for passing out in the shower? I’m curious because in my experience one would tend to crash out after drinking followed by a night of consensual passion/ intimacy TOGETHER. This would have appeared to have been his preference certainly during his previous encounter with his previous date, he was anxious that she should stay with him, according to her testimony.
Like I say I am probably missing something .... but it’s just a bit of a convenient, and odd thing??

IMO

It's complete nonsense. There is no reliable evidence he fell asleep in the shower, and plenty of evidence he did not.

 

[jamjim]

9:37am - The professor says it's not just access to *advertiser censored* that has become easier in the internet era, but access to many other ways sexual intimacy is represented. This includes online discussions about forms of intimacy, relationship advice, and sexual health. Social media networks are also bringing people together. People are also now more open about their sexuality, Prof Smith says. She gives the television show Love Island as an example of how it is observed in mainstream media.

Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence's overseas witnesses stream into court

 

[seadawg]

I know that in some situations, if a man kills a woman it's seen as automatically murder, because the women were passive, helpless and dependent on the man to protect them. But IMO, women aren't necessarily like that anymore, they're moving into their own personhood, which is a good thing. But I think it means they can't always be seen, legally, as child-like and dependent on the kindness of strangers.

There have been situations that were reversed, where a dominant woman killed a passive man during sex, and hid his body.
Dominatrix acquitted of manslaughter - The Boston Globe. Or if gay man kills another during rough sex, he might be a serial killer, or it might have been an accident. You can't prejudge, you have to look at the evidence.

I don't know what the outcome of this case will be, but I think if women want equality, and to take charge of their own (sex) lives, that means giving up this idea that men must always take care of us, that they are automatically murderers if they don't.

It's not about a woman's personal character though - many women have strong personalities and many men are passive and vulnerable and this is always spoken about when it is relevant in court. A fight between 2 men where one is clearly weaker and have evidence of passive character are seen as much more predatory than one where 2 men who are equally matched have a fight. It seems as if sometimes the judicial system process upholds old stereotypes and assumptions around gender as part of their method to achieve the outcome they desire - for example, your dominatrix case. That is a miscarriage of justice in my opinion - those who conceal a death to avoid accountability or consequences should be absolutely held to account.

I don't think this case has anything to do with gender equality. If a woman had 'accidently' strangled a man to death, researched methods of disposal and then concealed his body, taken intimate photographs of it, browsed *advertiser censored* while he lay on the floor, make extensive efforts to hide the evidence, and then immediately dated another man, I cannot see them successfully claiming it was her emotional vulnerability or 'naivety' which led her to do this. If that was the defense, then it would be because the defense team are paid to recycle old stereotypes to achieve what their client is paying them to do, not because there is a genuine issue for women to stop expecting to be looked after now that they have 'equality' (which, although must improved on the past, they don't). If that was the case, what about the impetus for change being equally on the man not to expect a woman to be vulnerable or need protecting. There are many men who enjoy the power dynamic where they feel like 'the protector' and the 'old ways' provide a dynamic where both parties get their needs met, which should be perfectly acceptable so long as both parties agree.

There is surely a basic moral tenet that we all are able to look after and protect both ourselves and the other people around us, when possible. If it is not possible to do both, it is either in a situation where looking after someone else (fulfilling their needs) compromises looking after ourself (personal wellbeing) or where looking after ourself (fulfilling our own beeds) compromises someone else's wellbeing or freedom, regardless of gender.

In my opinion there may be a need for people to be aware of the transaction which they enter into when they spend an evening with a someone they don't know who pays for everything for their 'company'. It is definitely not acceptable for the 'payer' to feel entitled to a reward when they have chosen to pay, however the transaction needs to be openly discussed and agreed upon beforehand rather than assumed; 'I am a man who earns a lot and I assume you don't have much money, and so I am happy to pay for dinner regardless of whether we get on because I enjoy having dinner with women' or 'I am a woman who needs to pay half for my meal to help me feel I am not entering in to a transaction where I am expected to offer sexual rewards'.

I apologise for the off topic rant which isn't particularly related to the case, all is IMOO. I just feel that gender isn't a key issue in this case.

 

[Kikixxxx]

where is she going with this?

 

[mrjitty]

Im 34 and into this kind of thing, i never did anything with my ex but when i met my new partner we got a bit into bdsm. Holding of the throat is no where near to hurting someone its just done to heighten pleasure! You would never get to the point of killing someone in my experience its nothing like that. Tap outs are common but i dont recall ever having to do that.

I know a few ppl the same and all of them its a light hold no where near enough to kill u its just absurd to say otherwise.
His *advertiser censored* addiction is big and clearly an issue he makes me sick paving the way for woman to be killed with such ease

Exactly!

Healthy women in their early 20s don't just suddenly die during sex because they are a bit drunk and are into some sex play.

I really hope the Jury don't fall for this crap.

 

[Lass from Yorkshire]

9:37am - The professor says it's not just access to *advertiser censored* that has become easier in the internet era, but access to many other ways sexual intimacy is represented. This includes online discussions about forms of intimacy, relationship advice, and sexual health. Social media networks are also bringing people together. People are also now more open about their sexuality, Prof Smith says. She gives the television show Love Island as an example of how it is observed in mainstream media.

Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence's overseas witnesses stream into court

Seriously. Why are we talking about Love Island???

 

[mrjitty]

I'm glad you're confident he'll be found guilty of murder, I'm a little worried but read other cases similar to this and all were found guilty. This guy is a bad egg, can't be trusted with women, hates them for some reason, and started on the road to serial killer type behaviour. If this were years ago, he would've gotten away with it.

Why no previous girlfriends/partner to vouch for him? Did he leave Australia voluntarily? Many questions hopefully will be answered once the trial is over.

Like with Pistorius, sometimes these cases are a bit too obvious.

Fingers crossed the jury to get confused by all this mudslinging

 

[JG123]

where is she going with this?

Everything appears to be based around proving that the deceased was into choking and that it was normal for the defendant to do it to her. I think they're trying to make it seem that the focal point of the case is whether or not sexual choking is a thing, alongside shifting focus away from what happened after.

Has anyone read about this case?

Man jailed for six years after killing Chloe Miazek in Aberdeen flat - Evening Express

What the defence are claiming is remarkably similar, with the exception of what happened afterwards.

 

[jamjim]

"9:51am - Prof Smith is discussing BDSM - an umbrella term that can contain forms of rough sex, or acts that people may consider kinky. She says people often believe it requires dominant and submissive participants, but says those roles can change during the encounter.

She describes it as an "exploration of stylised, ritualistic expressions of power in a sexual context."

She says typically the intention is not to have power over another person in order to do anything damaging, but rather to explore what it might feel like to be submissive in a moment or have power in a moment.

The male participant doesn't need to be the dominant player. Prof Smith says women have just as much interest in BDSM as men.

Within BDSM - particularly in long-term relationships - Prof Smith says there are often parameters put in place by the couple about what practises they will participate in.

People from a range of demographics participate in BDSM, Prof Smith says. But, she says, young people are often more likely to try new things out. She references 50 Shades of Grey as creating a discussion point in the mainstream."

Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence's overseas witnesses stream into court

 

[mrjitty]

In plenty of cases, men get drunk together and a fight breaks out. If no one is killed, they just forget about it, no one goes to police and files for assault, they just nurse their black eye, and maybe wise up about avoiding someone or about getting into drunken brawls. If someone is killed in the fight, sometimes the killer is convicted of murder, sometimes not, it depends on the specific circumstances. If the killer is acquitted of murder, it doesn't mean that the victim intended to die, or deserved to die. It's just recognized that the case can't be proven to fit into the legal definition of murder, because drunkeness and male on male aggression are accepted as very common and even normal in our society, and sometimes goes too far.

RSBM

As already mentioned, under the common law, drunkeness is no defence to murder. Nor is "male on male aggression" relevant.

Plenty of people have in fact been charged with murder or attempted murder, especially with aggravated assaults where victims are kicked on the ground, hit with bottles etc

A frequent way murder liability is escaped is where death was not an obvious risk. e.g. you punch someone, they collapse and hit their head on the pavement.

But "going too far' is precisely the kind of thing that can see you eat a murder charge in NZ

 

[mrjitty]

Most men after a satisfying sexual climax would not be interested in sex or watching any *advertiser censored* again for quite a while. The fact he went to the *advertiser censored* shortly afterwards suggests to me all was not good with the sex; perhaps he did not climax because he lost it and killed her first and wanted to finish off after the attack?.

This is important analysis. (RSBM)

Frequently these kind of killers "bottle" the sexual assault and kill the victim too quickly - then "celebrate" afterwards

The photos are part of this. Trophies.

Unlikely the attack was about the sex IMO. He gets gratification from the attack.

IMO its reasonable obvious he wanted to attack again even before he disposed of the body. He just lacked the opportunity.

 

[flutterby]

Tinder is quite basic. You put up photos and a short bio about yourself / what you’re looking for (but that’s optional). If you were looking for a particular ‘kink’, I guess you could talk about that in private messaging when you match with someone.

It depends. I use Bumble very occasionally which is basically the same as Tinder, but apparently a bit softer and more feminist (women have to make the first move amongst other things).

Anyway, I don't think I've seen anything that explicit but I've seen things on women's profiles that say something like "bicurious, in a relationship, looking for a threesome" Bumble also lets you filter by what the person is looking for, ie, a hookup, a relationship, casual dating etc. I'd imagine tinder is similar.

I think there's "tells" or other coded words/expressions used too