Found Deceased NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 *Arrest* #2
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kiwilaura
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It'll be interesting to see if the defence team manage to find someone(s) to act as a character witness as part of their hearing.
To my ear, the accused speaks with quite a thick Aussie accent (although I do know he is a NZer, as it was earlier reported). He obviously spent a LOT of time over there. Maybe that's where he made all his money?
Hi all. I am from NZ and have been following this case. This comment here just made me have a thought. You're right he's definitely got an Aussie accent. I am wondering if he has been deported back to NZ from Australia? This may explain his name suppression? Australia have controversially been deporting NZ-born citizens over the last few years. This can be when they are convicted of a crime, or for more general "character grounds". Clearly he seems to not have a huge network here, nor a fixed abode.
'I was petrified': the New Zealanders deported from Australia despite decades working there
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kiwilaura
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I know we are not allowed to discuss who he is, but for those of us who have learned a bit more about him from Googling his name, it was seen that he liked dressing up in suits for the hell of it. There were comments from 3rd parties about how he would wear a suit, yet be borrowing money from his grandparents to pay his bills. I wonder if that had anything to do with it? I think that he's dressing up to impress..... using his attire to make up for his lack of personal skills I feel.
katydidtoonz
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Fellow kiwi here. Have been following this thread and created an account just to reply to your comment! I 100% agree with your take here and believe this will come out eventually. A few days ago a journo tweeted asking something about the suppression order and another journo replied saying something to the effect of "if you want to know the reason for the suppression ask your court reporter to tell you about the court records". This guy for sure has priors in OZ, is currently under investigation for something else, or was just generally known to the police. I'm fairly certain there have been other cases where supression has been granted for these reasons.
Mariposa
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Yes I think they could def. pick up a broken bone even if all that was left was a skeleton. I was thinking split lip because the prosecutor asked the medical examiner if that could be ruled out and the answer was no because of the state of the body.
He definitely did something to her that caused bleeding and more than a little.
Wow , great to have insight into this , thanks for creating account . Do stay with us .
PrimeSuspect
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This answers our questions, a blood nose or split lip could have caused the excessive amount of blood in the room but there was decomposition of the victim's face, if she'd been found earlier, we'd know for sure. This is how some perps never get the sentence they deserve, the body's decomposition hides the gravity of the assault on the victim.
12.25pm - The pathologist says bleeding from the nose after pressure is applied to the neck can happen, but it's very rare. The decomposition of Millane's face also made this difficult to come to a conclusion about.
Dr Stables says the cause of death was pressure to the neck. This could be from manual strangulation (hand on neck causing pressure), a rope or belt or other object on the neck, a chokehold (neck in someone's inner elbow area), or a forearm hold (pushing forearm into neck).
He can't exclude any of those four mechanisms being responsible for the death.
.......
12:10pm - The pathologist confirms there were no cuts or abrasions seen on the body at the time of examination. However, he says these can be difficult to detect due to decomposition. He wouldn't have been able to pick up a split lip or blood nose, for example.
Grace Millane murder trial: As it happened - Tinder match returns to court, pathologist gives evidence
PrimeSuspect
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This is a great find! Thanks
kiwilaura
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Welcome to Websleuths katydidtoonz! It will be fascinating to see what comes out after he is convicted. As far as I can tell there is nothing on Google that sheds any light but there are removed results of course.
All & Forward
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Ah man, I got interested in this case as it broke which is nearly a full year ago now. As timing would have it, I just got back from my own trip to the UK (I'm an Antipodean) and came on here to see about a hundred new pages worth of news, discussion, and pondering.
I don't think I'm really surprised by the course of events. Both the behaviour of the accused and trial itself, and the night in question.
The term gets thrown around a lot, but the accused is undeniably a sociopath. His incredulous lies are outrageous and everchanging, but they're also with an intent to get something – and something pretty valuable. As I typed that, I meant sex. But I've also realised he's conned accommodation from it too.
In a way though, I do think the death wasn't really premeditated. This guy's life revolved around sex and so his persuasions and libido would have been pretty out of wack. I can see it being opportunistic rather than 'tonight I'm going to kill this girl.'
He is also pretty dumb. Emotionally (saying he has cancer, telling a girl he's just met how he'll kill himself if she doesn't like him) and in terms of raw intelligence. You can't get away with this *advertiser censored* anymore.
I've gone to school with people with very similar tendencies, both in terms of lying and their intense overbearing reliance on sexual validation to replace their huge irrelevance and lack of anything else. Listen to his voice and the way he dresses (and the fact he has a default 'date kit')... the guy isn't cool. I do not know what on earth Grace saw in him. She was pretty and seemed at least pretty intelligent. Who knows.
I don't think we'll ever get the truth but at least a body was found and he can't use that for bargaining when her parents are too old – or not even around. And at least there's a timeline.
Regarding the sex... as someone only a couple of years older than Grace, I can tell you that choking is almost 'trendy.' There's so many jokes and references that you'll see on social media, in memes, on clothes... 'choke me daddy' is a meme. But a meme with some semblance of truth. I would say most people who are 18-25, if they've had sex more than a couple of times, they've choken or been choked. It's usually light-ish and people are very aware of not doing damage, but again, it is very very common. I really don't think it's because of some *advertiser censored*-awful book written for middle aged women, though...
The other thing is yes: the amount of alcohol they drank was massive. I'm probably a heavy drinker but that amount in that time frame would kick my arse. I'm guessing he drank more because she really didn't seem too wonky at all. Weird.
Because of that, I always had a suspicion that they had sex and something like that had happened and had gone wrong.
In general though, I'm in a real sad malaise about this. I've seen photos of her but seeing someone walk and smile is completely different.
Just the small things.
The way that, when he was paying, she was smiling and was chatting to the girl behind the counter was nice. You'd be surprised how crippled many young people's social skills are. Yeah she was pissed, but she seemed genuine and kind. That exchange, that joke... when you work a crappy job like that, it can be the best thing that happens on your shift.
The way they went to a different place, had enough to loosen up, and leant over the table for their first kiss... it's all very normal and exactly how those things tend to go down.
I dunno, just hits close to home. You've been in that position and looked back on it fondly. It's just sad.
I don't think I'm really surprised by the course of events. Both the behaviour of the accused and trial itself, and the night in question.
The term gets thrown around a lot, but the accused is undeniably a sociopath. His incredulous lies are outrageous and everchanging, but they're also with an intent to get something – and something pretty valuable. As I typed that, I meant sex. But I've also realised he's conned accommodation from it too.
In a way though, I do think the death wasn't really premeditated. This guy's life revolved around sex and so his persuasions and libido would have been pretty out of wack. I can see it being opportunistic rather than 'tonight I'm going to kill this girl.'
He is also pretty dumb. Emotionally (saying he has cancer, telling a girl he's just met how he'll kill himself if she doesn't like him) and in terms of raw intelligence. You can't get away with this *advertiser censored* anymore.
I've gone to school with people with very similar tendencies, both in terms of lying and their intense overbearing reliance on sexual validation to replace their huge irrelevance and lack of anything else. Listen to his voice and the way he dresses (and the fact he has a default 'date kit')... the guy isn't cool. I do not know what on earth Grace saw in him. She was pretty and seemed at least pretty intelligent. Who knows.
I don't think we'll ever get the truth but at least a body was found and he can't use that for bargaining when her parents are too old – or not even around. And at least there's a timeline.
Regarding the sex... as someone only a couple of years older than Grace, I can tell you that choking is almost 'trendy.' There's so many jokes and references that you'll see on social media, in memes, on clothes... 'choke me daddy' is a meme. But a meme with some semblance of truth. I would say most people who are 18-25, if they've had sex more than a couple of times, they've choken or been choked. It's usually light-ish and people are very aware of not doing damage, but again, it is very very common. I really don't think it's because of some *advertiser censored*-awful book written for middle aged women, though...
The other thing is yes: the amount of alcohol they drank was massive. I'm probably a heavy drinker but that amount in that time frame would kick my arse. I'm guessing he drank more because she really didn't seem too wonky at all. Weird.
Because of that, I always had a suspicion that they had sex and something like that had happened and had gone wrong.
In general though, I'm in a real sad malaise about this. I've seen photos of her but seeing someone walk and smile is completely different.
Just the small things.
The way that, when he was paying, she was smiling and was chatting to the girl behind the counter was nice. You'd be surprised how crippled many young people's social skills are. Yeah she was pissed, but she seemed genuine and kind. That exchange, that joke... when you work a crappy job like that, it can be the best thing that happens on your shift.
The way they went to a different place, had enough to loosen up, and leant over the table for their first kiss... it's all very normal and exactly how those things tend to go down.
I dunno, just hits close to home. You've been in that position and looked back on it fondly. It's just sad.
Mariposa
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The thing you said about the CCTV Grace smiling/chatting with the bar employee while they paid—yep I noticed that too & found it sad because she seemed very sweet and kind.
Also agree about the defendant he is just cringeworthy, his voice, everything.
About the topic of choking as a sex trend I almost wish the prosecution would put in some kind of sex expert about that. To explain that generally it is not done to the extent of causing DEATH! Because I am afraid some could think, choking, thats a trend these days oh well it just went wrong.
Kiwi here (signed up just to reply!) I think it's because court proceedings today were procedural arguments between crown and defence in front of the judge that media were not privy to/allowed to report onThe 6pm TV news here (well, one channel in particular) had zilch on the case before the first ad break which is really strange ...
This is really insightful, thanks for the post. Particularly the stuff about how common choking is. That makes me think that grace might not have even been into it but that the accused thought it was a legit excuse for what happened because it’s so common in his world.
kiwilaura
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All & Forward I do agree with everything you've said.
I also don't think it was premediated, in that he didn't plan to murder someone that night.
I just hope the murder threshold is very, very clear in the minds of the jurors. And that is, if you continue to commit an act that you should know could possibly kill someone, or you have reckless disregard that it could kill someone, then you are guilty of murder. I worry that there is a misconception that it has to be planned and thought out.
There is every chance he made a choice to live out a fantasy in the moment, and maybe he didn't even mean to kill in that moment, but he was too self absorbed in this own pleasure/fantasy that he just didn't care in that moment for the consequences.
He lied and lied, and even when presented with evidence that he was lying, he still lies.
I also don't think it was premediated, in that he didn't plan to murder someone that night.
I just hope the murder threshold is very, very clear in the minds of the jurors. And that is, if you continue to commit an act that you should know could possibly kill someone, or you have reckless disregard that it could kill someone, then you are guilty of murder. I worry that there is a misconception that it has to be planned and thought out.
There is every chance he made a choice to live out a fantasy in the moment, and maybe he didn't even mean to kill in that moment, but he was too self absorbed in this own pleasure/fantasy that he just didn't care in that moment for the consequences.
He lied and lied, and even when presented with evidence that he was lying, he still lies.
PrimeSuspect
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I agree.
We're working under the assumption that Grace wanted to be choked because the accused said so, and he's a liar of epic proportions. Grace's best friend, who she was texting with just hours before her death, said Grace never mentioned liking being choked. It's the accused who has the history of smothering and choking his dates, we shouldn't transfer this over to Grace because she went back to his apartment, therefore, she must have wanted to be choked.
Grace's ex is yet to take the stand, and I think we're assuming, again, he'll say she liked it. I'm waiting with bated breath for his testimony, it could end up being a big miss for the defence but if it somehow portrays Grace as a sexually active person, open to experience, maybe, liked a bit of rough and tumble foreplay, that's good enough for the them, but not good enough to excuse the accused for killing her. What she did in a relationship isn't the same as sex with a virtual stranger!
I could be wrong about this but the defence team is desperate, and any kind of admission that Grace was sexually experienced and liked dirty talk etc, it's a win for them, similar to a rape case where the victim was not a virgin.
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All & Forward
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The ex-boyfriend will be interesting. But it's mostly redundant. Everything in sex can be taken to extreme and dangerous extents. Digital penetration is so normal but even that could seriously harm and cause internal damage to someone. You get me?
Going on with the whole 'it's popular' thing, I don't think he is smart enough to use anything as an excuse. My angle was that it's not entirely unlikely that she was into it. The guy has spoken about sexual interests with girls before so there's a good chance, after 19 cocktails, he brought it up and she, after 19 cocktails, engaged the topic. Maybe she did like it. But again: it's redundant.
But yeah – choking is probably the number one 'kink' amongst young people. It's a running joke.
If you're hooking up with a girl and lightly put your hands around your neck, it's more of a gauging. If she brushes it away, she won't think you're trying to kill her. You get the message that she isn't into it and there ya go. Or, there you should go. That or you both proceed.
The other thing is, due to the easy accessibility of sex and the transactional feel of it now, it's also not that unique to experiment with a tinder date. Most younger girls will tell you stories of guys using dating apps to fulfill their unique tastes. If you have something untraditional, why risk telling a girl you really like about it? Why risk her thinking you're weird? Why not tell a girl with likely no social connections, who doesn't even need to know your last name, and who you can never see again? Do you catch my drift? If anything, dating app sex can be more experimental. But from what I know, anecdotally, that's mostly discussed prior. You don't drop it on a girl after you've finished your flat white.
Going on with the whole 'it's popular' thing, I don't think he is smart enough to use anything as an excuse. My angle was that it's not entirely unlikely that she was into it. The guy has spoken about sexual interests with girls before so there's a good chance, after 19 cocktails, he brought it up and she, after 19 cocktails, engaged the topic. Maybe she did like it. But again: it's redundant.
But yeah – choking is probably the number one 'kink' amongst young people. It's a running joke.
If you're hooking up with a girl and lightly put your hands around your neck, it's more of a gauging. If she brushes it away, she won't think you're trying to kill her. You get the message that she isn't into it and there ya go. Or, there you should go. That or you both proceed.
The other thing is, due to the easy accessibility of sex and the transactional feel of it now, it's also not that unique to experiment with a tinder date. Most younger girls will tell you stories of guys using dating apps to fulfill their unique tastes. If you have something untraditional, why risk telling a girl you really like about it? Why risk her thinking you're weird? Why not tell a girl with likely no social connections, who doesn't even need to know your last name, and who you can never see again? Do you catch my drift? If anything, dating app sex can be more experimental. But from what I know, anecdotally, that's mostly discussed prior. You don't drop it on a girl after you've finished your flat white.
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