NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00 #2

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Side by side of the middle child and the girl next to Marie in the cake pic.

View attachment 188043

I actually thought she and the taller girl on the right looked similar. If they are related, this can mean one of two things.

1) She is not the middle child and they are unconnected to the case.

2) She is the middle child and Rasmussen has more kids out there.
 
I actually thought she and the taller girl on the right looked similar. If they are related, this can mean one of two things.

1) She is not the middle child and they are unconnected to the case.

2) She is the middle child and Rasmussen has more kids out there.
I remember hearing in the podcast that "Lisa" said that she had brothers and sisters that died... Not sure if this is referring to her bio siblings or if this is referring to Marie/Sarah/middle child/potentially more kids of TPR.
 
I remember hearing in the podcast that "Lisa" said that she had brothers and sisters that died... Not sure if this is referring to her bio siblings or if this is referring to Marie/Sarah/middle child/potentially more kids of TPR.

I totally forgot about that... this would mean the kids and Marlyse were killed after Denise? This makes the case even more confusing. Unless he just told her about the “siblings” and she wasn’t actually ever with them.
 
I remember hearing in the podcast that "Lisa" said that she had brothers and sisters that died... Not sure if this is referring to her bio siblings or if this is referring to Marie/Sarah/middle child/potentially more kids of TPR.
well ,now that there is an ID they will re-interview Lisa again I hope and see if names etc come to mind. ( BTW that is one lucky girl )
 
I’m listening to the NPR Bear Brook podcast again. In episode 3 he talks about the isotope testing and something stood out regarding the middle child. Thought it was worth mentioning:

Based on testing of their hair, all 4 victims were together in New England the last 2 weeks to 3 months before their deaths. Marlyse went someplace to a colder climate north or west of NH sometime 5 to 7 months prior to her murder. The isotopes from the place she went to are similar those found in the teeth of the middle child. Possibly implying that she went some place to get the child at that time and that’s when the child joined the others in NH.
 
I’m listening to the NPR Bear Brook podcast again. In episode 3 he talks about the isotope testing and something stood out regarding the middle child. Thought it was worth mentioning:

Based on testing of their hair, all 4 victims were together in New England the last 2 weeks to 3 months before their deaths. Marlyse went someplace to a colder climate north or west of NH sometime 5 to 7 months prior to her murder. The isotopes from the place she went to are similar those found in the teeth of the middle child. Possibly implying that she went some place to get the child at that time and that’s when the child joined the others in NH.

Did they cite their source for this tidbit, by chance? I'm curious to know how they confirmed the MC's isotope area matched the one where Marlyse & her daughters were prior to coming to NH, because I posited this possibility years ago but was never able to confirm the isotope areas were the same. In the 2015 press conference, AG Agati mentioned that 3-7 mos prior to coming to NH, the related three were in a more norther climate than NH. BUT it was during the q&a part of the pc and the questioners interrupted him so he never said one way or the other that they were the same area, and no one in the audience picked up on that and asked. So, I asked the question here on WS if the areas were one and the same, and if anyone knew. I was never able to get a confirmation, so I'm curious if they did or if they're speculating.
 
I was born in 1975 (same age about as the one daughter) and we did have yearbooks in elementary school. I still have mine - they don't list the kids names, just their individual pictures with along with what teacher they had. I believe Lifetouch was the company name that did ours. My kids did not have yearbooks until they hit middle school though.
 
Could this be the mother of the middle child?

CANADA - Canada - Bowmanville, Ont, WhtFem 90UFON, 18-30, near freeway, Oct'06

Early in the Bowmanville thread it's mentioned that the remains could have been there for 10 years prior to when found in 2006, however that has been bumped to as far back as 1979 - page 2, post #39.

Shared features - overbite and what seems to be Native North American features.

It's incredibly easy to get from New Hampshire to Bowmanville, Ontario. All of the northern NH border abuts Canada. From Mancheser, NH one can drive west to Syracuse, NY (5 hours) then north to Ganonoque, Ontario (2 hours). Ganonoque is on Highway 401 (major highway) - another 2 hours west on the 401 is Bowmanville. A weekend road trip would do it.

TR's body count was rising, or he was planning on it rising - disposing of at least one body in Canada would be clever of him. He seemed to be cunning enough for this.

If anyone want to submit this to the American LE in charge of the NH case please do so. Imo it would be a waste of time to try a comparison from the Canadian side - feedback is slim to none and I don't see any mention that DNA is available for the Bowmanville UID. NH LE is much more motivated to find info.

All jmo.

What stood out to me is that both this woman and the middle child had/may have had anemia. Yes, it's a pretty common thing, but it can be genetic (I'm anemic and inherited it from my mother). So that's another thing that connects them.

When isotope testing was done on them, where did they think the middle child was most likely from? I want to say the Great Lakes area or Dakotas?
 
What stood out to me is that both this woman and the middle child had/may have had anemia. Yes, it's a pretty common thing, but it can be genetic (I'm anemic and inherited it from my mother). So that's another thing that connects them.

When isotope testing was done on them, where did they think the middle child was most likely from? I want to say the Great Lakes area or Dakotas?

It was the upper mid west, Dakotas down to NE Colorado I think, and some northern isolated areas in NH VT ME and upstate NY, IIRC. Someone at the 2015 press conference asked if the MC could be from Canada, since some states are very close, but the AG insisted that Canada's water isotopes were much different than the US.
 
The Bowmanville UID is not necessarily from Canada - I don't see any mention that isotope testing was done on her remains. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

The Bowmanville nuclear plant is an open, isolated, large area. She was brought there for disposal.
 
Good point about does anyone recognize Marlyse. We know she isn't the mother. Don't know if Terry had the middle child with him Thanksgiving of 78. Wonder if there Is anything to that he seems to meet woman who not long before were involved with other men and for some reason or another were no longer when they met him.
 
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Did they cite their source for this tidbit, by chance? I'm curious to know how they confirmed the MC's isotope area matched the one where Marlyse & her daughters were prior to coming to NH, because I posited this possibility years ago but was never able to confirm the isotope areas were the same. In the 2015 press conference, AG Agati mentioned that 3-7 mos prior to coming to NH, the related three were in a more norther climate than NH. BUT it was during the q&a part of the pc and the questioners interrupted him so he never said one way or the other that they were the same area, and no one in the audience picked up on that and asked. So, I asked the question here on WS if the areas were one and the same, and if anyone knew. I was never able to get a confirmation, so I'm curious if they did or if they're speculating.
It is not a confirmed match. That’s why I used the words ‘similar’ and “possibly implying” in my post. It was the scientist that did the testing that made the statement. It’s here in the podcast. A Smaller Haystack
 
It is not a confirmed match. That’s why I used the words ‘similar’ and “possibly implying” in my post. It was the scientist that did the testing that made the statement. It’s here in the podcast. A Smaller Haystack

I will check it out. The way I read your post, it sounded like they said it was conclusive. My apologies for reading it wrong.
 
Y’all might be aware of this, but I had either forgotten or failed to connect the dots in the past. Episode 5 of the podcast about the little girl he abandoned (LJ) being so badly abused - sexually assaulted. So the target of his sick desires might not have been the women he murdered, but the little girls. The mothers might have just gotten in the way.
 
I will check it out. The way I read your post, it sounded like they said it was conclusive. My apologies for reading it wrong.
No need to apologize, hon. I got excited the first time I heard it and went back and re-listened to confirm that it was only implied, not conclusive.
 
Y’all might be aware of this, but I had either forgotten or failed to connect the dots in the past. Episode 5 of the podcast about the little girl he abandoned (LJ) being so badly abused - sexually assaulted. So the target of his sick desires might not have been the women he murdered, but the little girls. The mothers might have just gotten in the way.

Very much agree. I think this explains Marlyse and Marie in one barrel - possibly placed there weeks or months before Sarah and the middle child in another barrel and in a slightly different location.
 
the little girl in the lavender. i think that is the middle child.

The pictures I'm looking at are all red. If you mean the little girl to Marie's left as she is blowing out the candles, I agree. The same girl is is the child at our far left in the other picture; but there is also a little girl next to her (who is not in the candles picture) who could also be her... just has longer hair.
 
Here are just my thoughts and guesses based on what we now know.

I am going to work under the assumption Marlyse was Elizabeth Evans. A lot of people who know this case better than me have long speculated the oldest victim might be Elizabeth Evans because of the timing, the fact that there is no other likely candidate for Elizabeth, and the isotope evidence that the victims lived in New England before their deaths.

Marlyse having the middle name Elizabeth now makes that case a lot stronger. In fact, I'd argue her first name being Marlyse is also further evidence for this theory.

We know Terry Rasmussen was still calling himself Terry Rasmussen as of November 1978. Within a year or so, he would be calling himself Bob Evans. I will discuss later the different possible motives for him abandoning his birth name, but clearly he wanted a new identity. Not just a new identity, but a more generic identity.

Compare the name Terrence "Terry" Peder Rasmussen to the name Robert "Bob" Evans. Terry Rasmussen is much more memorable of a name. Terry Rasmussen is a guy who's probably pretty easy to find, if you're determined to look. His middle name is spelled in an unusual way, even if his first name is more common. Bob Evans, on the other hand, that's a forgettable name. That's a guy who's hard to find. If you go looking for Bob Evans, you'll turn up hundreds of people just in one state.

Now let's also look at Marlyse Elizabeth Honeychurch. Doesn't seem like there's *anyone* else by that name. Maybe Marlyse was a more common name in the '50s than it is today, but I haven't ever met a Marlyse. I've met plenty of Elizabeths, though. Elizabeth Evans is, like Bob Evans, an extremely forgettable and generic name.

As for why the name changes, there are four possibilities that jump out at me:

1. Something related to the custody situation with Marlyse's daughters. It seems like before her disappearance, their fathers were involved in their lives. Maybe one of them objected to Marlyse's plan to move across the country. Sarah's father had physical custody of her not long before they disappeared. It would make sense, with him being in the military, that he might've turned primary physical custody back over to Marlyse, but there's a huge difference between giving her primary physical custody (especially of a child who isn't in school yet and who's schedule can be more easily divided 50/50) and being okay with her taking their daughter too far away for him to regularly visit.

2. Something related to the custody situation with Terry's daughter.

3. Terry had murdered the mother of his daughter and was worried he might come under police suspicion.

4. Terry was concerned about being implicated in a totally different disappearance or murder.

I also think it's likely that Marlyse was motivated (and thought Terry was also motivated) primarily by reason 1 or 2, but Terry was really secretly motivated by reason 3 or 4. Whatever the reason, I suspect the name change was Terry's idea and he persuaded Marlyse to start going by her middle name rather than her more unusual first name. The last name change could've been just blending in more, but also probably stemmed from a marriage that wasn't legally binding like he had with Eunsoon Jun. He did list Elizabeth Evans as his wife, after all.

Well, it's already been speculated that if Elizabeth Evans was one of the victims, she was probably murdered between May and October of 1980, since in his arrests in February and May of 1980 he lists Elizabeth as his wife, but then in October 1980 he doesn't. I've seen it pointed out in the past on this site and others, again by people who know this case better than I do, that this timing could make sense with at least one of the children attending school, and Terry deciding to kill them over summer break to avoiding arousing suspicion. If one of the children was in school, this might've been a necessary precaution since Terry wanted to remain in the area, and did remain in the area for more than a year afterwards. The timing of when he would've had access to that location also seems to work with this timeline.

So a question I think amateur sleuths need to look into was whether or not Marie was in school and whether or not the middle child was in school. In order to keep a low profile, Terry might not have wanted the children in school, so of course it's a possibility that neither of them were. But there's also a possibility this could be the key to the middle child's identity.

I think there's a fair possibility Marie was enrolled in school. Assuming she was in school in California (and it would be unusual if she wasn't) both Marlyse and Marie herself would likely expect she'd be in school in New Hampshire. It shouldn't be too complicated of a matter to check the location Bob and Elizabeth Evans were living in during that period in early-to-mid 1980 and see what elementary school they would've been zoned for. Assuming NH had a similar age cutoff to what I'm familiar with, during the 1979-1980 school year, Marie would've been in second grade. I would also check first and third grade yearbooks to be sure.

There's of course the question of what name Marie would've been enrolled under. I doubt it was Marie Vaughn. Given Marie is a pretty common first name, and the difficulty of explaining to a child why she has to start using a new name, I think the first name might've been Marie. The last name may have been Evans, or it may have been another relatively common last name. Or it could've been something totally out of left field. But if she was in a yearbook, now we know exactly what she looked like and she shouldn't be hard to spot. If we know what name she was using and what school she was enrolled in, that opens up the door to finding children she may have known, and those children or their parents could be invaluable resources to finding out about Marie's life in New Hampshire and, crucially, the name of the other little girl who lived with her.

The middle child herself was probably too young to be enrolled in school, but I still think it could be worth looking into. See if there's a little girl who was in Kindergarten who resembles the image we have, or who was using the last name Evans. There's also the possibility, if she was born in 1975, that Terry was supposed to register her in school in the fall of 1980. Maybe he didn't want to do that? If she were enrolled in school, there would be greater scrutiny if she (or the family as a whole) just disappeared. With a step-daughter, Terry could always tell people her mother just left him and took her out of state. But with his own daughter it might be more complicated, especially if he'd told people he was a widower, as he did later when he was traveling with Lisa. Maybe his daughter's birth had never been registered at all, and while I don't think that would've been an impediment to putting her in school during that era, he might've hesitated to finally make her existence a matter of public record. He also might have been concerned with the middle child, and possibly Marie as well, telling their teachers things that could get him into trouble. Whatever his reasons, this might've been a point of contention with Marlyse. Whether either child had attended school in New Hampshire before or not, if September rolled around and he refused to register one or both of them for the new school year, that would probably have spurred on a conversation he didn't feel like having.

Another thing that fits well with a timeline where Marlyse was Elizabeth Evans and the victims were killed over the summer or early fall of 1980 is the fact that Terry Rasmussen made no distinction between his biological daughter and Marlyse's daughters. Not just in the fact that he killed them, but the timing and circumstances of their murders and where he placed the bodies. It almost goes without saying that he was incapable of loving his daughter, or being a father to any of the three girls, but if he hadn't known Marlyse or her children for very long, it's harder to imagine him deciding to kill his daughter who he presumably had raised since birth, at the same time for the same reason.

This crime makes sense as a type of family annihilation. Rasmussen selfishly decided he did not want to be in the role of husband and father anymore. Perhaps there was an argument with Marlyse that spurred it on, perhaps she was planning on leaving him, perhaps she wanted to go to the police over him abusing her or one of the children or some other crime he had committed. But ultimately he decided to murder not just Marlyse but all three children, two of whom were probably not old enough to be witnesses against him. If he had been with Marlyse for about two years, from 1978-1980, it would make sense for him to see them as a unit. If Marlyse had raised and loved his little girl along with her own, it makes sense that he would murder all three children together, at the same time and place, probably for the same reason. Tragically this type of crime is much more common than it should be. This aspect of the crime makes a lot less since if his relationship with Marlyse was more fleeting or if he'd spent less time with her children.

I think we now also have a crucial piece of information when it comes to finding out the identity of the middle child: that Terry Rasmussen was in Southern California using his own name as of fall 1978. Not just legally using his own name, but socially as well. It's hard for me to imagine him switching to another name and then resuming using his birth name, so that is probably the name he was using with his daughter's mother and her family, and they may have lived somewhere in that area around that time. It also makes a lot of sense now to work under the assumption that his daughter's mother was the woman who his older children met in 1975 or 1976. With all of this circumstantial evidence put together, I think we could be very close to the final piece of the puzzle.

Another possible scenario for the murders. June 1980 is the last date on an arrest card where Elizabeth is listed as Wife. It was either 3 days after that date or 3 days before that date that Denise Denault who lived down the street disappears. (I can't recall the exact dates right off hand but they are on the hand-out from the press conference.) It's possible Marlyse and/or the girls witnessed something with regard to Denise's disappearance and he felt he had to get rid of witnesses. Did he bring Denault to that house for a time? Did they walk in on him doing something to Denault? Denault is unaccounted for to this day; and it just seems far too coincidental to me.
 
Very much agree. I think this explains Marlyse and Marie in one barrel - possibly placed there weeks or months before Sarah and the middle child in another barrel and in a slightly different location.
Or Marlyse and Marie were the first killed and he kept the two little ones around for a while longer?

Anyone know how old LJ was when he “abandoned” her?
 
For those who are questioning photos of Marie - Announcement from NCMEC: (parts bolded by me for reference)

BEAR BROOK MURDERS

Today New Hampshire authorities announced 3 of the 4 #Allenstown murder victims have been identified. DNA confirmed they are Marlyse Honeychurch and her two daughters Marie Vaughn and Sarah McWaters. They disappeared from California during November 1978.

While their names are now known, there are still several questions that remain. Authorities are seeking continued assistance from the public. The below photos appear to be taken during December 1977 or 1978 for Marie's birthday. Marie has been identified as the little girl in the white dress blowing out birthday candles. The location of where this photo was taken is unknown. The other children in the photos have not been identified.

If you have any information on where these photos were taken or who is in the photos, please call the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children at 1-800-THE-LOST, ncmectips@ncmec.org or contact the New Hampshire State Police Cold Case Unit at (603)223-3856, coldcaseunit@dos.nh.gov.

61851057_2653380651356492_1314724355850108928_n.jpg
61936268_2653380648023159_9032896525109297152_n.jpg


Help ID Me

So to answer everyone's question, if photos are from 77 ( a year before leaving) or 78 (just after they left) it is quite unlikely that middle child (Terry's child) would be in the photo with them. (Just in my own humble opinion).
For those who are questioning photos of Marie - Announcement from NCMEC: (parts bolded by me for reference)

BEAR BROOK MURDERS

Today New Hampshire authorities announced 3 of the 4 #Allenstown murder victims have been identified. DNA confirmed they are Marlyse Honeychurch and her two daughters Marie Vaughn and Sarah McWaters. They disappeared from California during November 1978.

While their names are now known, there are still several questions that remain. Authorities are seeking continued assistance from the public. The below photos appear to be taken during December 1977 or 1978 for Marie's birthday. Marie has been identified as the little girl in the white dress blowing out birthday candles. The location of where this photo was taken is unknown. The other children in the photos have not been identified.

If you have any information on where these photos were taken or who is in the photos, please call the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children at 1-800-THE-LOST, ncmectips@ncmec.org or contact the New Hampshire State Police Cold Case Unit at (603)223-3856, coldcaseunit@dos.nh.gov.

61851057_2653380651356492_1314724355850108928_n.jpg
61936268_2653380648023159_9032896525109297152_n.jpg


Help ID Me

So to answer everyone's question, if photos are from 77 ( a year before leaving) or 78 (just after they left) it is quite unlikely that middle child (Terry's child) would be in the photo with them. (Just in my own humble opinion).

He may have started a relationship with her in 77 or 78 and had included his daughter in the other girls' activities such as birthday parties that Marlyse held. He could have already killed the middle child's mother by this time (playing the single father attraction game). They may also not have gone straight from Thanksgiving of 78 to New Hampshire. They may have gone to New Hampshire via Texas for awhile.
 
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