NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[poppygirl]

I had a 6 cylinder van once that was only running on 5 cylinders and didn't even know it until it failed inspection. I know there's a difference between 4 & 6 cylinders but I was also powering a much larger, heavier vehicle. Just thinking that running on 3 cylindrs, while it should be addressed eventually, doesn't make a car undrivable or dangerous.

 

[Fireweed]

I guess the discussion we are having here is whether or not Maura's car really was in ad shape, or if that is just something Fred Murray said. I happen to think that Maura's car was likely not running great, but I doubt it was a lemon that needed to be replaced with another car. The only evidence we have that the car was not running well it all is from Fred, but we have contradictory evidence that it was running well enough to make a three hour trip.

 

[Lolacat]

It is my own belief that Fred was in Amherst as a direct result of whatever that Thursday night phone call was about. Now I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt on a couple of things: 1. I do think Maura's car was not running all that great and that Fred and Maura had discussed the possibility of getting a new car within the recent past and 2. That Fred did not know that Maura was planning on taking off.

I think Fred knew Maura was deeply distressed and deeply troubled. I think he said and did some things that he feels guilty about, but which were, at the time, merely part of his persona as a father who "pushes hard." I think that is still a huge part of him, which is why he has a hard time understanding that the rest of us are way more forgiving to human frailty than he thinks. To him, being weak or a failure is the worst thing you can be, whereas I think most of see that as just a normal part of human existence.

He insists the past is not relevant because he does not want us looking at Maura's past. It boggles the mind. What kind of "past" does a 21 year old have anyway? I have seen nothing from Maura's past that seems at all odd to me. She made some mistakes, but we all did at that age.

I agree with all of this. Fred strikes me as having a very rigid personality. A typical black or white thinker- meaning that the entire world is categorised into either GOOD or BAD, right or wrong. Whereas, most people are actually shades of grey.

 

[Coffeelover]

I don't think it's strange that the car was on a three hour drive when it was so bad that she needed a new one. My 21 yo daughter is also away at college, and drives around her town in a 2003 Dodge. While at the moment, there isn't anything specifically wrong with it, just within the last few months it's needed several things to be fixed. So for now, it's fine for getting around her town (if it breaks down, she can take the bus) and it makes the three hour drive home regularly. She has a good AAA plan. However, when she goes to a different school for grad school with a longer commute, we will have to get her something better, that is guaranteed to start every time and not leave her stranded.

 

[OldSteve]

I don't think it's strange that the car was on a three hour drive when it was so bad that she needed a new one. My 21 yo daughter is also away at college, and drives around her town in a 2003 Dodge. While at the moment, there isn't anything specifically wrong with it, just within the last few months it's needed several things to be fixed. So for now, it's fine for getting around her town (if it breaks down, she can take the bus) and it makes the three hour drive home regularly. She has a good AAA plan. However, when she goes to a different school for grad school with a longer commute, we will have to get her something better, that is guaranteed to start every time and not leave her stranded.

The car.... why it was never tested to see just how it runs is a question. Probably LE did....
Cannot imagine taking a poorly running car on the drive that's shown in the video posted back thread a bit.

 

[Coffeelover]

Good points OldSteve, though I do think at age 21 young people might do things that us older folks (speaking of myself) might not do. Like if my daughter wanted to go somewhere bad enough, she would take the chance, especially since she had AAA, which Maura also had.

 

[KenShabby]

Hi, I'm just jumping in here. It's been awhile since I've heard anything about this case. Did they find Maura's body?

Brother, you've got a lot of reading-up to do. . . .

 

[KenShabby]

He insists the past is not relevant because he does not want us looking at Maura's past. It boggles the mind. What kind of "past" does a 21 year old have anyway?

Indeed. This particular question has led some theorists to speculate that there was something very dark and/or nefarious going on in MM's personal or family life — stuff that only people very close to her might have been aware of. Those people aren't talking or are insisting that it doesn't matter — which only fuels more speculation.

 

[neverletgo]

Hi, I'm just jumping in here. It's been awhile since I've heard anything about this case. Did they find Maura's body?

:wagon:, pokypuppy67!

No, they have not found Maura's body. Hope you can stick around with us for awhile! :seeya:

 

[Captain_Khan]

I don't think it's strange that the car was on a three hour drive when it was so bad that she needed a new one.

Only real problem with that analysis is that we don't know for certain how long Maura's planned route would had been if she hadn't crashed.

For example, some people have suggested she planned to escape to Canada.

Either the journey wasn't supposed to be a particularly long one, or Maura really, really needed to go somewhere desperately, in my opinion.

 

[iluvmua]

This case is fascinating.

 

[Fireweed]

I agree that a 21 year old might take more risks regarding a crappy car than an older person might, but here is where I have a problem with Maura's case:

According to Fred Murray, Maura's car needed to be completely replaced with an entirely different car. To me, a person would only do this if their current car was either not running at all, was in such bad shape that the headache of the repairs was not worth it anymore, or the owner was now living in better circumstances and decided to upgrade.

So here's what we do know: Maura was just a college student and not a rich one. She was not poor, but she was not rich. She went to school full time and still worked two part time jobs. Another point: her father said he had $4,000 to buy her a new (used) car. That sounds like a totally expected amount for a solidly middle class father with four children to come up with for one of his daughters. So far, this sounds reasonable. Fred Murray did not have $20,000 to blow on a new car for his college-aged daughter and Maura did not have that kind of money either. Keep this in mind because this is important to my overall point.

Now according to Fred, Maura needed a new car because her old car was not running well enough to get her to her clinicals. This is where his story gets odd to me. Again, keep in mind that Fred is not rich, and neither is Maura. Fred comes to Amherst 2 weeks after classes start (after a very long break) to buy Maura a completely different car in the tune of $4,000. This is what I find strange. I could see a person with a lot of money spending a lot of money on a new car and not thinking twice about it, but given the fact that Maura worked two jobs while in college, I am assuming that Fred did not have a lot of money to spread around to his kids. So why then would he buy a car for $4,000 instead of just paying to repair the one that Maura already had? It only had to last another 2 years. Why not shop for a car during her break? Unless of course it had just started acting up, in which case I ask, why not just repair it? Is there any evidence that the car had been in the shop at all?

Another thing that we do know: Maura's car made it on a three hour journey without breaking down. So it could not have been the case that the car was in such bad shape that it was not running at all. It clearly was.

Which brings me to: either Maura was lying or Fred is lying. Either Maura told Fred she needed a new car or Fred is telling us she needed a new car. But I find it hard to believe that anyone would completely replace a car that could make it more than 100 miles without breaking down. I makes absolutely no sense to me. In fact, it makes so little sense to me that I am inclined to believe that Fred's stated reason for going up there that weekend simply is not true.

 

[Lolacat]

I agree that a 21 year old might take more risks regarding a crappy car than an older person might, but here is where I have a problem with Maura's case:

According to Fred Murray, Maura's car needed to be completely replaced with an entirely different car. To me, a person would only do this if their current car was either not running at all, was in such bad shape that the headache of the repairs was not worth it anymore, or the owner was now living in better circumstances and decided to upgrade.

So here's what we do know: Maura was just a college student and not a rich one. She was not poor, but she was not rich. She went to school full time and still worked two part time jobs. Another point: her father said he had $4,000 to buy her a new (used) car. That sounds like a totally expected amount for a solidly middle class father with four children to come up with for one of his daughters. So far, this sounds reasonable. Fred Murray did not have $20,000 to blow on a new car for his college-aged daughter and Maura did not have that kind of money either. Keep this in mind because this is important to my overall point.

Now according to Fred, Maura needed a new car because her old car was not running well enough to get her to her clinicals. This is where his story gets odd to me. Again, keep in mind that Fred is not rich, and neither is Maura. Fred comes to Amherst 2 weeks after classes start (after a very long break) to buy Maura a completely different car in the tune of $4,000. This is what I find strange. I could see a person with a lot of money spending a lot of money on a new car and not thinking twice about it, but given the fact that Maura worked two jobs while in college, I am assuming that Fred did not have a lot of money to spread around to his kids. So why then would he buy a car for $4,000 instead of just paying to repair the one that Maura already had? It only had to last another 2 years. Why not shop for a car during her break? Unless of course it had just started acting up, in which case I ask, why not just repair it? Is there any evidence that the car had been in the shop at all?

Another thing that we do know: Maura's car made it on a three hour journey without breaking down. So it could not have been the case that the car was in such bad shape that it was not running at all. It clearly was.

Which brings me to: either Maura was lying or Fred is lying. Either Maura told Fred she needed a new car or Fred is telling us she needed a new car. But I find it hard to believe that anyone would completely replace a car that could make it more than 100 miles without breaking down. I makes absolutely no sense to me. In fact, it makes so little sense to me that I am inclined to believe that Fred's stated reason for going up there that weekend simply is not true.

This is where things get weird. On James Renner's blog, in June 2013, he posted a document from the tax dept in Norfolk County, Mass. Seems like 3 days before Maura disappeared Fred was going to have his home in Weymouth seized due to debts. Yet he has $4000 for a car? hmmmmmmmm.

EDITED: having googled this, it seems unclear whether this house actually belonged to Fred, or if it belonged to his brother, Daniel. Or, many of the Murrays. So, now I dont know what to think. Either way, it seems strange to me that Fred had that much cash on him and I doubt that money was for a new car.

 

[goldiegirl]

This is a very interesting discussion about the car.

For those who don't believe the $4000 was for a car, what do you think it was for?

Or, are some suggesting that he may not have taken $4000 with him at all?

I never knew how we knew/thought that Fred took $4000 that weekend. Did he say that? Sorry, still have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[Captain_Khan]

This is a very interesting discussion about the car.

For those who don't believe the $4000 was for a car, what do you think it was for?

Or, are some suggesting that he may not have taken $4000 with him at all?

I never knew how we knew/thought that Fred took $4000 that weekend. Did he say that? Sorry, still have a lot of catching up to do.

I have a couple of theories, but nothing solid.

I wondered for a long while if Maura needed some kind of medical procedure. Renner has often discussed the idea that Maura was cheating on her boyfriend with a running teammate, and I believe that Maura had searched for the effects of alcohol on a fetus before her trip. Therefore, some people have suggested she needed the money for a private abortion. This would explain her seemingly fragile mental state and her desire to get out of town to have the procedure at a clinic where she would know none of the medical professionals. It may also explain why Fred has given off a somewhat strange impression, which some have interpreted as him knowing more about the disappearance than he lets on - maybe he has been trying to protect his daughter's reputation?

However, that theory is pretty much entirely speculation. As a nursing student, Maura had a pretty good reason to be researching fetal development without it being a personal matter. Nobody has let on that Maura was cheating, or looking for an abortion, and Fred's behavior might not be out of the ordinary at all.

Personally, I think Maura planned to drop out of UMass and enroll into a different nursing college - hence why she packed up all her stuff and returned borrowed items before she set off. I wonder if the money was intended to be a deposit on a new place to rent, or for Maura to bank for course fees at a new place. The only hard evidence I can point to for this is the print out of directions to Stowe and Burlington, Vermont, which I believe are both home to nursing schools. (She did not seem to be heading to either of these places when she crashed on Route 112, though).

Anyone else want to discuss theories they have heard or thought of?

 

[Fireweed]

I think we sometimes put too much into Maura being a nursing student. She had only been a nursing student for one semester. She picked nursing only after being kicked out of West Point, and she was willing to take a week off at the start of the semester.

You know what I think? I do not think Maura was all that pumped about being a nurse. I think she had to pick something that her family would find acceptable after West Point, so she decided on nursing. I have found the speculation that Maura is working somewhere in the medical/nursing field to be a bit odd. She was not a nurse and was only a beginning nursing student, who obviously was not even that devoted to it! Why would she go to look at nursing schools, take a whole week to do it, and take that week off during a time when she was supposed to be in school? That makes no sense to me.

If I look at Maura's actions, and the fact that UMass and nursing was a "back up" after a major screw up at West Point, I am going to conclude that Maura did not give a damn about being a nurse, or nursing school.

 

[pokypuppy67]

Fireweed, I agree with your logic on new nursing schools being an unlikely motive. Her first semester nursing status, after Westpoint, doesn't seem very significant.

I've watched a couple different documentaries on this case but I don't know about some of the details being discussed here. I.e., I hadn't heard about the money, and I hadn't heard about any odd behavior on Fred's part. Does anyone know a place where I can get caught up on all the details of the case up to this point?

 

[BillNH]

This is a very interesting discussion about the car.

For those who don't believe the $4000 was for a car, what do you think it was for?

Or, are some suggesting that he may not have taken $4000 with him at all?

I never knew how we knew/thought that Fred took $4000 that weekend. Did he say that? Sorry, still have a lot of catching up to do.

Fred's statement to UMASS police. He said he was there with 4000 dollars on his person for the purchase of a car.

 

[KenShabby]

I've watched a couple different documentaries on this case but I don't know about some of the details being discussed here. I.e., I hadn't heard about the money, and I hadn't heard about any odd behavior on Fred's part. Does anyone know a place where I can get caught up on all the details of the case up to this point?

PokyP — Though I risk being subject to the wrath of some sleuths by referencing this, the link below is for a January 2013 post that appeared on the blog maintained by author James Renner, who is writing a book on the Maura Murray story. It contains a list of some "new" information, i.e., stuff that did not appear in places like the "Disappeared" television show. You'll see that the list reveals some of Mr. Renner's biases surrounding the case (particularly his palpable distrust/disdain for all-things Fred Murray), though at least it does not contain much speculation.

Note: I am not suggesting that most of the information in Renner's post is relevant to the case (I wouldn't know). It would be nice if there were a more comprehensive lists of "what we know for sure" about the case — which is painfully little. Much of what we think we know (e.g., the car was running badly) is based on hearsay. Still, it's the kind of stuff that has fueled sleuths' fascination and theories.

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/p/what-weve-learned-so-far.html

 

[Fireweed]

I do not find it to be a bias at all. Fred said that he was there that weekend to get Maura a new car because her car was in such bad shape that it needed to be replaced. The only evidence we have for this is Fred's word. However, we have other evidence that Maura's car made it on a three hour trip the next Monday.

I do not find this to be a bias on Renner's end. He is just asking the questions that any half-assed journalist would have asked had they been good at their jobs. The fact that Maura's car was in good enough shape to have made it up to Haverhill should have set off some alarms in any credible and decent investigative journalist. But it has been increasingly obvious to me over the years that such journalists no longer exist. They do not ask any hard or puzzling questions; they just throw out softball questions and write down the answers and call it a day. It is lazy and unprofessional. For example when Fred said that Maura's car was in such bad shape that he took out $4,000 and made a special trip that weekend, then all journalists who were reporting on this case should have asked, "Why did you not buy a car that weekend? How do you explain how Maura's car made that trip without any problems? What ultimately happened to that $4,000?" So those to me would be basic follow up questions that any journalist would have asked, but not one of them did. This is so baffling to me that I do not even know were to begin. These journalists had one person who was the chief witness to a huge block of Maura's last moments before she disappeared and no one bothered to question him about the logical fallacies of what he was saying.

So give Mr. Renner a break. I know he has a book to sell, but those other journalists had newspapers to sell too. At least Renner is asking good questions. He is getting to the heart of the matter, and if that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, then so be it, that is one of the side effects of good journalism, good sleuthing, and good investigation.