NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Freezing to death in that weather is also not a guarantee. She could have passed out and woken up the next morning really, really cold.

You don't have to freeze to die of hypothermia. 30-50 degrees is also a lethal range. The body temperature only has to drop about 3.5 degrees for a person to be in real peril.

A bottle of alcohol and a long cold night in the woods may not be a guarantee of death, but it's far likelier than people may realize, especially without treatment.

http://www.redrockadventure.com/fishing/ice_fishing/hypothermia.htm

 

[jeffries]

I used to be a rather strong proponent of the abduction theory, but as time goes on, and with the help of scoops' insightful posts, I am starting to lean more towards suicide/succumbing to the elements. It's simply more likely, statistically, but also judging from the oft-repeated basics of the case.

Actually, if some serial killer or just plain killer abducted and killed Maura, wouldn't her body most likely be found within 10 years? Not necessarily, but it seems in most of those cases the body is found rather quickly -- almost as if the perp wants it to be found. In fact, I'd wager that most murderers do want the public and the victim's family/friends to know that it wasn't a suicide or something else; they probably gain some twisted satisfaction from this. I'll just say this, if Maura was murdered and buried somewhere nearby, the killer certainly did an unusually good job of hiding the body.

 

[Fireweed]

If Maura died that night in the woods, then it does seem a bit odd that her body (or clothing) has never been found. She could not have gotten very far in the dark in the mountains.

 

[scoops]

If Maura died that night in the woods, then it does seem a bit odd that her body (or clothing) has never been found. She could not have gotten very far in the dark in the mountains.

Fred had made the comment supposedly that they would find Maura up in the mountains drunk and naked (this comment was within the first week she went missing).

So if she was drunk and naked (common thing to happen to a person suffering from hypothermia -- to shed their clothes) then finding clothes wouldn't neccesarily yield a body nearby.

But I have always made the point that real searches have never been done for Maura at any location other than where her car accident took place.

So, with no real searches taking place, It is not surprising that a body has never been found IMO. And there were several places Maura could've went to, she was a regular to the white mountains since she was a child. There was one hiking location not that much further up the road miles-wise (from her car accident) that was like where one of her first-ever hiking adventures took place.

 

[Captain_Khan]

I used to be a rather strong proponent of the abduction theory, but as time goes on, and with the help of scoops' insightful posts, I am starting to lean more towards suicide/succumbing to the elements. It's simply more likely, statistically, but also judging from the oft-repeated basics of the case.

Actually, if some serial killer or just plain killer abducted and killed Maura, wouldn't her body most likely be found within 10 years? Not necessarily, but it seems in most of those cases the body is found rather quickly -- almost as if the perp wants it to be found. In fact, I'd wager that most murderers do want the public and the victim's family/friends to know that it wasn't a suicide or something else; they probably gain some twisted satisfaction from this. I'll just say this, if Maura was murdered and buried somewhere nearby, the killer certainly did an unusually good job of hiding the body.

Funnily enough, I'm heading the other way - I used to be a pretty staunch believer that Maura committed suicide, but over the years I'm thinking she either tried to go leave the wreck and succumbed to the elements, or just so happened to cross paths with someone who - directly or indirectly - led her to her death.

There are a lot of murder cases where bodies aren't found for a very long time - either because they are well-hidden, disposed of with great care, or destroyed. For example, recently in the UK, a young girl named April Jones vanished, and her body has never been recovered. A man has been jailed for her murder after a confession, and it seems that he tried to burn the child's body, then either scattered the remains across the countryside or in a river. To me, the White Mountains seem like an ideal place to get rid of a body in a remote place, when you can rely on animals or the elements to quickly erode any evidence.

People often point to the rarity of murder as an argument against Maura having fallen prey to someone. However, I'm willing to bet thousands of young people break down in or wreck in their cars every year, but we just don't hear about them. We know of Maura's case because it is extremely unusual. I think we can't discount the possibility that, in that very small window of time, she did encounter someone or something that sealed her fate. She didn't become just another kid who has car trouble, hitches a ride to town and gets rescued by their parents/friends.

 

[JamesRenner]

Scoops, that's just not true. There were two extensive searches (coordinated on ground and in helicopters), involving more than 100 people all around Mount Washington and the region near the crash site. You can find some details online. But this is direct from Scarinza.

 

[scoops]

Scoops, that's just not true. There were two extensive searches (coordinated on ground and in helicopters), involving more than 100 people all around Mount Washington and the region near the crash site. You can find some details online. But this is direct from Scarinza.

Ground search was done by Maura's car accident site, helicopter search was done (which may have expanded out), but so what, the Lt. didn't spot a body from the helicopter.

Considering we have a whole family (The Jamison's) that was recently found (years after they went missing near mountains) just 2.7 miles away from their abandoned truck, after 100's of people and professional law enforcement searched (on foot) around the area for them and any clues --- says that any type of search is far from foolproof.

Those searches for the Jamison's were called off eventually because the terrain was quite rough.

I would imagine someone like Maura could've trekked pretty far.


And Fred has consistently said that he is the only one looking for his daughter (and while I think he has went a little overboard in hammering that point home to the public when the cameras were rolling showing him searching in the woods), I believe him. He was the only reason police came out and searched around where Maura's car accident took place in the first place.

 

[thenotebook]

I am new to this case. A couple of questions:

1. In the Disappeared episode on ID, Billy was certain that the mysterious call he received was Maura. However, then I read via a quick google search that the caller was later identified as a red cross employee trying to reach Billy. ??? Is this correct? How was this determined?

2. Any updates on the backpack that was found in the woods?

3. It strikes me as a little weird that she locked the car when she left. To me, that means she wanted to protect the items in the car, like she intended to return. If she knew she was leaving that car for good, why lock it?!?

 

[Captain_Khan]

I am new to this case. A couple of questions:

1. In the Disappeared episode on ID, Billy was certain that the mysterious call he received was Maura. However, then I read via a quick google search that the caller was later identified as a red cross employee trying to reach Billy. ??? Is this correct? How was this determined?

2. Any updates on the backpack that was found in the woods?

3. It strikes me as a little weird that she locked the car when she left. To me, that means she wanted to protect the items in the car, like she intended to return. If she knew she was leaving that car for good, why lock it?!?

Hello and welcome!

1) It is now believed that the call was, as you say, from a Red Cross employee who needed to discuss Billy's leave to join the search. I assume this was verified by phone records and possibly by reaching the employee in question who confirmed? Anybody know anything more on this? Seems really unlikely to have been Maura, as there is very little signal in the mountains, and that is where our best guesses place her.

2) Not sure.

3) I do agree in principle. However, I wouldn't invoke this as evidence that Maura certainly intended to return - a lot of people lock their cars out of habit. I do think she intended to return, and would point to the strange rag in the tailpipe or the fact she had alcohol she had bought very recently on the back seats as evidence for this - as well as a beloved cuddly toy.

 

[JamesRenner]

I think you're really not hearing me, so I'll say it again. They searched a good majority of the mountain range twice. Both times on foot and in the air. Not just near where Maura was found, but all the way between there and the summit of Mount Washington. They did not keep Fred up to speed on all of this. One search, alone, had 80 employees of Fish and Game involved. They covered a lot of ground. Found one skeleton. Turned out to be a guy who'd gone missing in the past.

 

[scoops]

I think you're really not hearing me, so I'll say it again. They searched a good majority of the mountain range twice. Both times on foot and in the air. Not just near where Maura was found, but all the way between there and the summit of Mount Washington. They did not keep Fred up to speed on all of this. One search, alone, had 80 employees of Fish and Game involved. They covered a lot of ground. Found one skeleton. Turned out to be a guy who'd gone missing in the past.

If You say so. But...

Here is what is known (publically)

FIRST SEARCH ----- (Maura’s accident scene) in the early days after maura went missing
“At 8:00 am, New Hampshire Fish and Game, the Murrays, and others began to search for Maura. A police dog tracked the scent from one of Maura's gloves 100 yards east from where the vehicle was discovered, but lost the scent.”


SECOND SEARCH ----- (Once again at the accident scene not in the mountains)

“In May, based on a tip, New Hampshire Fish and Game conducted a ground search near where a young person was seen running the night of Maura's disappearance, but no scent or leads were reported from the search

THIRD SEARCH --- (this one orchestrated by Fred and Maura’s family through private investigation. At this point fred was on his own no help from police in finding his daughter’s remains.)

Once again the search was focused around the accident location

“In October 2006, volunteers led a two-day search within a few miles of where Maura's vehicle was found. In the closet of an A-Frame house, cadaver dogs allegedly went "bonkers," identifying the possible presence of human remains. A sample of the carpet was sent to the New Hampshire State Police.



Just using common sense, it would make no sense for police to orchestrate a massive search effort for a missing person in the white mountains (without having some sort of specific clue to work off of).

You wouldn't put lives in danger like that and volunteers would have to be highly skilled hikers, if you were going to do a true search mission in that type of terrain.

And how would Fred and the public not know about a search taking place (involving 80-100 people). That would be very hard to keep secret.

But if you say so.

 

[Darkness]

I just can't embrace the suicide theory just yet and here's why:

Her friends in the past have said that Maura has taken off without telling anyone before, I think they recall Boston as one of her destinations. Maura probably uses these trips to decompress or add some control to a busy and hectic life. I'll leave for a couple of days, not tell anyone and for at least for this short period of time I'll be in control. This trip to the White Mountains could have been just one of those blow off some steam trips.

As weak as that dog scent search was, the dog only went up the road a hundred feet or so and in my opinion she meets and gets into hopefully a second good Samaritans car after BA the school bus driver. What happens after that is anyone's guess.

The rag in the tail pipe of the car tells me somebody had some bad intentions for Maura. I kept wanting it to be Maura putting it there to show the car is abandoned or broken down. I don't know, but I'm quezzy about that.

Her body has never been found. Yes it could be that she was missed in one of the searches or never found by hunters or hikers.....maybe. Or did somebody hide her body.

Why would a district attorney in Fred's request for all of Maura investigative files say in open court that there is a 75% chance of arrest in this case? I would hope his files on the Maura Murray disappearance has a few more tidbits in it that we're not privy to.

How about the crack in her windshield above her air bag, seems to suggest a pretty strong blow to her head. This could be something that caught up to her some hours later in the good samaritans car or if she jogged away from her car miles up the road east of the accident scene. She passes out and succumbs to the elements. Or she passes out and dies in the car of the good samaritan. For that guy, do I go back and try to explain what happened or do I hide the body?

Anyway thanks for looking at my random mumblings....

 

[McSpy]

If Maura died that night in the woods, then it does seem a bit odd that her body (or clothing) has never been found. She could not have gotten very far in the dark in the mountains.

There are miles and miles of thick woods. I think you are underestimating how dense the woods are in the area she disappeared. Who knows? She could be under someone's shed. She could be on private property.

 

[McSpy]

I think you're really not hearing me, so I'll say it again. They searched a good majority of the mountain range twice. Both times on foot and in the air. Not just near where Maura was found, but all the way between there and the summit of Mount Washington. They did not keep Fred up to speed on all of this. One search, alone, had 80 employees of Fish and Game involved. They covered a lot of ground. Found one skeleton. Turned out to be a guy who'd gone missing in the past.

What time of year did this take place?

 

[McSpy]

I am new to this case. A couple of questions:

1. In the Disappeared episode on ID, Billy was certain that the mysterious call he received was Maura. However, then I read via a quick google search that the caller was later identified as a red cross employee trying to reach Billy. ??? Is this correct? How was this determined?

2. Any updates on the backpack that was found in the woods?

3. It strikes me as a little weird that she locked the car when she left. To me, that means she wanted to protect the items in the car, like she intended to return. If she knew she was leaving that car for good, why lock it?!?

On number 2 . . There was a backpack found? When did this happen? Where did you hear of this?

On number 3 . . . Subconciously, she wasn't going to commit suicide, even if she was feeling that way emotionally. She was still protecting her stuff. She wasn't letting it go yet. That is my take on it. Locking the car could have been a habit, but one clue of suicidal intent is giving away possessions.

Just some thoughts . .

 

[KenShabby]

On number 2 . . There was a backpack found? When did this happen? Where did you hear of this?
.

This topic gained brief attention three or four months ago when (I think) it was discussed on Sam Lenyard's blog. From my perspective, the details — and even the discussion of it — did not seem to make much practical sense, and never passed the smell test for me; another of those myriad possible clues/probable red herrings that get injected into the discussion before they are abruptly dropped when a more interesting "clue" emerges. But perhaps I am being too dismissive of the topic. Maybe Sam L. can sum it up here.

 

[scoops]

On number 2 . . There was a backpack found? When did this happen? Where did you hear of this?

On number 3 . . . Subconciously, she wasn't going to commit suicide, even if she was feeling that way emotionally. She was still protecting her stuff. She wasn't letting it go yet. That is my take on it. Locking the car could have been a habit, but one clue of suicidal intent is giving away possessions.

Just some thoughts . .

I will offer my thought (but by no means am I trying to say you are wrong).

I think she was locking her car (purposefully leaving the accident forms that her father would need inside) because she knew the car would eventually be turned over to Fred.

 

[McSpy]

I think she needed the extra time, because I don't believe she wanted to end her life that Monday. I believe she wanted to be in the white mountains area Monday night and begin her final hike the next morning. Her email was sent out in mass to her nursing department as well as her employers. I think, her just not showing up Monday for school/work would've/could've been enough time for a friend or a boss or a nursing director to begin calling around and checking on her which would lead to her family.

Coming up with a whole week (for an excused absence) means no one will look for her and she can take her time and not worry about someone coming after her.

I think (especially her father) would come up with the white mountains pretty quickly if he was told his daughter didn't show up for work and he could not contact her himself.

I'm on the fence with all this. I can see her wanting to sort things out and I have no doubt she was very emotional and felt suicidal. I'm just not convinced she was going to end it all. I do think she could still be out there undiscovered (succumbed to the elements). She could be anywhere in a 15 mile radius. She was young and strong. She could have ran pretty far. I'm just picturing her running up the road in the pitch black. For all we know, she could have twisted an ankle and succumbed to the elements off the road somewhere. A helicopter could miss this, IMO. In my experience, I've seen helicopter searches on the water numerous times and they rarely find anyone, if the people had perished. The bodies are usually found by accident by fisherman, people passing by on the beach or by boat. Maura was wearing dark clothing. She could have easily blended into the wooded terrain-—in fact, even if she was fully clothed or not. I'm not convinced a helicopter search is thorough. It is better than nothing. There is always a chance and a hope they will see something, but if the person they are seeking did not perish and are found waving and screaming, then a helicopter is worthwhile. If the person they are seeking had perished, then it is doubtful a helicopter would find them, unless the victim was wearing blaze orange or another bright color.

JMO

I still think there is that possibility she excepted a lift, but that is only a possibility. I have no idea what happened to her. I just hope for answers some day.

 

[scoops]

I just can't embrace the suicide theory just yet and here's why:

Her friends in the past have said that Maura has taken off without telling anyone before, I think they recall Boston as one of her destinations. Maura probably uses these trips to decompress or add some control to a busy and hectic life. I'll leave for a couple of days, not tell anyone and for at least for this short period of time I'll be in control. This trip to the White Mountains could have been just one of those blow off some steam trips.

As weak as that dog scent search was, the dog only went up the road a hundred feet or so and in my opinion she meets and gets into hopefully a second good Samaritans car after BA the school bus driver. What happens after that is anyone's guess.

The rag in the tail pipe of the car tells me somebody had some bad intentions for Maura. I kept wanting it to be Maura putting it there to show the car is abandoned or broken down. I don't know, but I'm quezzy about that.

Her body has never been found. Yes it could be that she was missed in one of the searches or never found by hunters or hikers.....maybe. Or did somebody hide her body.

Why would a district attorney in Fred's request for all of Maura investigative files say in open court that there is a 75% chance of arrest in this case? I would hope his files on the Maura Murray disappearance has a few more tidbits in it that we're not privy to.

How about the crack in her windshield above her air bag, seems to suggest a pretty strong blow to her head. This could be something that caught up to her some hours later in the good samaritans car or if she jogged away from her car miles up the road east of the accident scene. She passes out and succumbs to the elements. Or she passes out and dies in the car of the good samaritan. For that guy, do I go back and try to explain what happened or do I hide the body?

Anyway thanks for looking at my random mumblings....

I don't know if you wanted someone to reply, but I will offer up my thoughts on your wonderings.

1. On maura's trip to boston: that was the only example given, so that (in my book doesn't make her a repeat (leave without warning) offender. And I just have never understood how someone as responsible as Maura did appear to be, would need a vacation 14 days into a new semester after just having two months off. She would be putting her education and career in jeopardy by falling way behind in clinicals. I don't see a responsible person just risking all of that to get away and clear her head for a week with one outfit of clothing into the mountains.

2. I agree with you that its anyone's guess on who picked her up if anyone did. Many people beleive it had to be someone up to no good that picked her up and I have always made the point that it could've just as easily been a good samaritan.

3. On the rag in the tailpipe, the lead investigator into the case is also puzzled about that. But his best guess was that it was a failed suicide attempt right there on the spot. But no one truly knows.

4. I don't believe searches were truly conducted to find maura in the mountains, especially considering maura was familiar with a bunch of different mountains and hiking locations. I hear what James has been saying, but even if an effort was done to locate her, I believe it would've taken a miracle or a legit clue to spring searchers to a specific spot to actually find something.

5. Just trying to understand context of situations, That 75 percent comment made by the DA came as he was being chewed out and basically scolded by the judges.

The DA kept saying that they can't release any information to Fred because it might hinder their investigation and the judges quickly pointed out that it had already been several years that had passed and at what point would that information no longer be hindering the supposed investigation.

The DA kept balking and the judges finally said to him to pick a number any number on what percentage he thought an actual conviction might take place and the DA randomly blurted out 75 percent.

Fred Murray, who was there, doesn't believe the comment at all and thought he pulled it straight from his hinder.

6. Good points on the cracked windshield. Just keep in mind that a deployed air bag can also be the culprit in a cracked windshield. In maura's situation, there was no blood evidence (not a single drop) found in her car and she was described by the witness as being cognitive, just very cold and shivering.

 

[McSpy]

I will offer my thought (but by no means am I trying to say you are wrong).

I think she was locking her car (purposefully leaving the accident forms that her father would need inside) because she knew the car would eventually be turned over to Fred.

Possible. I believe Maura was conscientious in many ways, which maybe one of the reasons why she was so hard on herself. I think after her second accident she must have been reeling. She must have felt awful about herself. Like she really messed up—big time.