NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[Fireweed]

I appreciate that some of you have chosen to share your stories of how you thought of suicide once, but I must counter that your experiences do not necessarily apply to to someone who actually completed suicide. Neither of you actually went through with suicide. Deep down, you know why. You know that suicide is actually a very difficult thing to do. You can say that you empathize with someone going through a hard time and feeling suicidal, but your comparison ends at actual suicide. I am not trying to diminish depression or feelings of hopelessness (God knows i have been there), but you simply cannot compare what you went through to someone who actually did it. Those people are on a whole different plane of existence.

My issue with people thinking that Maura was suicidal is that people who actually complete suicide, generally do not plan as much as Maura did. I am not saying that proves or disproves anything; what I am saying is that planning the time and location of a suicide, at least a day in advance, and choosing an extremely shaky method (alcohol, exposure) would be an extremely rare method. I cannot emphasize this enough. People who actually complete suicide never leave that much up to chance. The reason that the drinking/exposure method is not preferred is because there is way too much time to chicken out. Actual suicidal people who are committed to killing themselves are loathe to choose a method where backing out is an option. Even people who hang themselves frequently tie their own hands behind their backs. Why? Because the human survival instinct is that strong.

So many here act as though a mere determination of Maura's part would have been enough to complete suicide. I have been asking for years how her suicide happened and no one can give me a satisfactory answer. I think that is because there is none. Suicide by exposure or drink is a very "risky" suicide method - there is a reason guns, ropes, high places, and pills are preferred.

Let's say Maura walked into the woods that night with a bottle and a desire to die. Okay, then what happened? No really, then what happened? I suspect that after all these years of me asking this question, still no one will answer. It is the way is always is here: people insist that she committed suicide and not one person can come up with how she committed suicide.

 

[CanManEh]

Her commiting suicide is a joke if u ask me . she would have been found within days of this all happening if that were the case and dont tell me well she was a track athlete because by all accounts i have heard or read the snow was knee highwith each step you would have sunk through up to your knees which means she couldn't have ran in the woods to commit suicide not to mention that road where she crashed has no lights at all at that time of night she wouldn't have knowen what was right and what was left its scary dark if u believe the locals in that area.. Someone took her weather like i have said before maybe they came around that bend and being so dark maybe they accidentlly hit her and put her in the back to dump her body somewhere else or maybe they seen her all alone hitchhiking and picked her up again getting rid of her somewhere else reguardless of how it happend iam certain someone took her that night...

 

[carpanthers]

How do we know she hide the Coke bottle? What if the bottle slipped out of her hand and rolled under the car? The car is not that high off the ground and she would have had to try to fish out if that where the case. Why not just leave it in the car? Or for that matter just throw it into the woods? And if the story about the rag is true, why did she do that? Sound more likely that Maura wasn't thinking to clearly immediately after she crashed her car. The last thing we can assume she did before walking away was locking her car.

You do make some good points, Carpanthers.

On the issues of why she did not leave it in the car or throw it into the woods:

"Her decision to hide the alcohol means she didn't want it to be discovered. She had to choose between:

A. Ditching the alcohol at the scene
and
B. Carrying the alcohol from the scene.

The fact that she chose to leave it at the scene means she thought the alcohol would be better hidden at the scene than on her person. This implies that she is afraid she would be caught carrying it.

Once she decided to leave it at the scene, she had to decide between:
A. Hiding it under her car
Or
B. Throwing it into the woods

If she were planning on leaving the scene of an accident for any period of time, the logical presumption is that police would search for her in the woods near the scene. If she were to throw the bottle into the woods and they found it while searching for the driver of this crash, the presumption would be that she had deliberately hidden this alcohol from the police.

If she chooses to hide it under the car:
A. It may never be discovered if she is able to return to the scene and remove it.
B. She has plausible deniability about hiding the alcohol in the event that it is discovered. She could claim that it had rolled or been kicked underneath the car.

I believe the Coke bottle would have been considered an open container. It is a mixed drink in an unsealed bottle that had originally held another substance. This is why it is important that it be hidden. Maura does not attempt to hide the box of wine, which she could have claimed had burst during the crash. She cannot claim that this crash damaged and unsealed the Coke bottle, as the Coke bottle had clearly been opened and did not contain Coke."

As to the rag, why couldn't Fred have been telling the truth regarding this issue? If we don't presume that every word out of his mouth is a lie to make us think she isn't suicidal, then why couldn't this be true? If Fred Murray wants us to think that somebody else killed her, why wouldn't he tell us that a "local dirtbag" put that rag in her tailpipe intending to follow her and do her harm? Butch Atwood said she was shivering at the scene, but she was still behind the wheel when he arrived. Why is she shivering? Is it because she is cold? If she is still behind the wheel, doesn't this imply that Bruce Atwood arrived on the scene very quickly? Isn't this what the Westman's told us they witnessed from their kitchen window? Wasn't it supposed to be about 30 degrees outside? Why would she already be cold? Was her heater broken? Isn't it possible that she is shivering from being cold? Isn't it possible that she is cold because she had already been standing outside her car, perhaps because it had been smoking noticeably, and she opened her trunk and got out her roadside kit and found the rag, the rag that her father told us belongs to her and not some local dirtbag, and that he specifically told her to do this to prevent the car from creating smoke? Isn't it possible that she got out of her car and shoved this rag in her tailpipe to prevent it from smoking, like her father told her to? Making her cold enough to shiver? Maybe making her stall as she slowed to make the turn at the Weathered Barn? Explaining the acceleration before the crash that the Westmans have always told us that they heard?

 

[Lamima]

Was this coke bottle a 20 oz or a 2 liter? Did they DNA test it for proof that it belonged to Maura...I assume yes and it couldn't have been on the ground when her car came to a stop? If it was proved to be hers, then I wouldn't be surprised if it dropped and rolled under the car. Maybe she got out of car and decided she wanted one last swig and grabbed it, took a swig and just dropped it or went to toss it back in the car and it dropped on the ground and rolled. Hiding it purposely under the car makes no sense unless she was completely wasted and did things that made no sense (I can remember, back in the day, waking to find things in odd places after a night of partying). Did they test the substance in it...do we know what it was? Sorry, but I am not extremely familiar with this case.

 

[carpanthers]

Was this coke bottle a 20 oz or a 2 liter? Did they DNA test it for proof that it belonged to Maura...I assume yes and it couldn't have been on the ground when her car came to a stop? If it was proved to be hers, then I wouldn't be surprised if it dropped and rolled under the car. Maybe she got out of car and decided she wanted one last swig and grabbed it, took a swig and just dropped it or went to toss it back in the car and it dropped on the ground and rolled. Hiding it purposely under the car makes no sense unless she was completely wasted and did things that made no sense (I can remember, back in the day, waking to find things in odd places after a night of partying). Did they test the substance in it...do we know what it was? Sorry, but I am only a little familiar with this case.

The red substance was found in the interior of her car as well, proving that it came from inside her vehicle. Officers at the scene reported that it smelled of alcohol.

If she wanted to drink more alcohol after the crash, why didn't she take it with her from the scene? This also implies that she does not want to be caught walking from the scene with this bottle.

As to the bottle falling out of the car without assistance from Maura, we know that she wasn't holding the bottle when Butch Atwood saw her. He didn't feel the need to tell us that he saw this bottle on or anywhere near her person, despite the fact that it would imply his innocence. For it to fall out accidentally, Maura would have to open the door against which the bottle was leaning. Two of her doors were next to the snowbank, and officers reported no footprints in the snow. This leaves only one front door and one back door which Maura could have opened and accidentally caused the bottle to roll under the car. She presumably only opened (at most) the two doors that were closest to the road, and not the two that were closest to the snowbank. These were the doors that would have been closest to Butch Atwood, when he arrives in his school bus. His school bus was high off the ground, providing him with a vantage point to look down into her car through the windows of these doors. We know he looked down into one of these windows and saw Maura well enough to identify her. He didn't report seeing the bottle in her hand, and he didn't report seeing it on a seat. If the bottle wasn't on top of one of these two seats, immediately up against one of these two doors, it couldn't have dropped out of the car and onto the ground by accident. It would require some energy to move the bottle from the floor of the car out the door, it could not roll on its own. Objects on the floors of cars need to have some kind of force applied to them to remove them from the car. This is because the bottom of the door is higher than the floor of the car. If we want to believe it rolled out, we have to believe it was on top of a seat. Have you ever been in a vehicle in which you feel that there is enough room for a soda bottle to slide between the edge of the seat and the door without pushing it down? Any size soda bottle? If we want to believe it rolled out by accident, we have to believe it was up against one of the two doors adjacent to the road. Do we even know which way the ground sloped? If it sloped away from the snowbank, it might have even been impossible for it to have accidentally rolled under the car.

No need to apologize for your level of familiarity with the case. There is a lot of information, and I don't claim to know it all myself. I don't know about the size of the Coke bottle, I will see if I can find out though.

 

[DayLea]

Haven't you ever accidentally kicked something out from the floor of your vehicle when getting out? I know I have. An empty pop bottle would be very light and would move very easily, and further would make minimal noise hitting the snow. If Maura was in the "gotta get out of here" state that I suspect she was in, she might not even have noticed, or cared.

Question, we don't know what happened to the vodka that was on the receipt, do we? But we do know that Maura and her group of friends liked to drink vodka mixed with wine. This makes me think that she was mixing the wine and vodka in the coke bottle, and took the vodka with her.

 

[carpanthers]

Haven't you ever accidentally kicked something out from the floor of your vehicle when getting out? I know I have. An empty pop bottle would be very light and would move very easily, and further would make minimal noise hitting the snow. If Maura was in the "gotta get out of here" state that I suspect she was in, she might not even have noticed, or cared.

Question, we don't know what happened to the vodka that was on the receipt, do we? But we do know that Maura and her group of friends liked to drink vodka mixed with wine. This makes me think that she was mixing the wine and vodka in the coke bottle, and took the vodka with her.

Yes, but if she accidentally kicked it out, then we are down to one potential door the bottle could have rolled out of, unless we think that she got back into the car and then back out again. This would also put her in close proximity to the bottle that Butch Atwood never saw. If the street slopes away from the snowbank, we are down to zero potential doors.

According to Renner, officers claim all alcohol accounted for.

 

[carpanthers]

Haven't you ever accidentally kicked something out from the floor of your vehicle when getting out? I know I have. An empty pop bottle would be very light and would move very easily, and further would make minimal noise hitting the snow. If Maura was in the "gotta get out of here" state that I suspect she was in, she might not even have noticed, or cared.

Question, we don't know what happened to the vodka that was on the receipt, do we? But we do know that Maura and her group of friends liked to drink vodka mixed with wine. This makes me think that she was mixing the wine and vodka in the coke bottle, and took the vodka with her.

Also, officers tell us that they smelled it and it smelled of alcohol. This suggests that either there was still liquid in the bottle and it was not empty, or that she poured it out and they smelled the ground where she poured it. If they smelled the liquid that had spilled inside the car, how would they distinguish this alcoholic smell from the smell of the wine?

 

[DayLea]

Okay, did a little more re-reading. According to a post on Renner's blog from June 2011, all the alcohol was accounted for, according to Haverhill PD. However, he interviews Lt. Scarinza about 6 months later and Scarinza does not mention vodka, rather a 6 pack of Seagram's (gin coolers if you don't know).

"She had purchased Kahlua, wine, and a six pack of Seagrams. The box had splashed all over the car. The bottle of kahlua was not there."

So it was the Kahlua that's not accounted for, and there was never vodka or Bailey's?

Gnomony even questioned Renner about the discrepancy, and Renner was unable to offer an explanation.

ETA: We were posting at the same time again.

 

[DayLea]

Also, officers tell us that they smelled it and it smelled of alcohol. This suggests that either there was still liquid in the bottle and it was not empty, or that she poured it out and they smelled the ground where she poured it. If they smelled the liquid that had spilled inside the car, how would they distinguish this alcoholic smell from the smell of the wine?

BBM
Pour some alcohol in a bottle. Empty it. Smell it. I suspect you'll still be able to smell the alcohol.

ETA: To clarify, by empty I don't mean cleaned and rinsed. There wouldn't have needed to be much liquid left in the bottle to identify it as red wine.

 

[carpanthers]

“Within a few minutes, a school bus driven by Butch Atwood stopped alongside Murray’s vehicle. Atwood, who told reporters he is a former police officer, asked Murray if she was okay and if she wanted him to alert local police. Murray, according to Atwood, said that she was fine and that she had already used her cell phone to call AAA for assistance.”

Butch Atwood is the only person who saw her after this crash. He is the only person who can testify to her demeanor as it relates to her state of mind. He does not describe a woman who is experiencing chaotic thought processes. He says that she told him she was fine, and that she had used her cell phone to call AAA. According to Butch Atwood, he called 911 because he knew that this was a lie. He lived in the area, and knew that there was no cell reception. Maura was thinking clearly with respects to her ability to deceive Butch Atwood, so that he would leave the scene.

“Atwood said Murray didn’t appear intoxicated, despite police having said a witness indicated she had appeared to be impaired due to alcohol.”

Atwood is the only person to whom she spoke, and she tried to deceive him to achieve a purpose. Doesn’t this speak to clarity of mind and purposefulness of action?

Accounts differ about what level of impairment Maura demonstrated, but all accounts are based on Butch Atwood’s description of her demeanor and behavior. When Butch Atwood spoke directly to reporters, he told them that she didn’t appear intoxicated. Couldn’t a police officer have been mistaken, early in this investigation, when he spoke to the press about the correlation between the idea that she was drinking and Butch Atwood’s interactions with her at the scene? If a police officer had been told that Maura had been drinking when she crashed and that a man had stopped and talked to her, couldn’t this officer have incorrectly assumed that Butch Atwood told other officers she was intoxicated? Isn’t it possible that Butch Atwood jumped to these conclusions himself, after he realized that she didn’t want him to call police? Isn’t this more likely than Butch Atwood lying to us about the level of intoxication her behavior suggested?

Although Butch Atwood has certainly exaggerated about his employment and perhaps about other things, we should remember that he passed a polygraph test, where he was presumably asked questions about the details of this case.

He is the one who saw her. He specifically told a reporter, in a first person account of what he saw, that she did not appear intoxicated. He doesn’t tell us that she was drunk. He tells us that she tried to deceive him.

We assume she was drunk because alcohol was found at the scene. We don’t even know how much of the red liquid she consumed. We assume she was drunk at this crash because we assume that she was drunk at the first crash, even though a trained police officer determined that she was not. We base our determinations of her intoxication at the scene of both crashes based on our own speculation about her state of mind.

She tried to deceive Butch Atwood to manipulate him into leaving the scene. This indicates that she is thinking rationally.

Butch Atwood’s comments can be found here:

http://www.wnd.com/2006/03/35310/

 

[carpanthers]

BBM
Pour some alcohol in a bottle. Empty it. Smell it. I suspect you'll still be able to smell the alcohol.

ETA: To clarify, by empty I don't mean cleaned and rinsed. There wouldn't have needed to be much liquid left in the bottle to identify it as red wine.

Went to the official report. Sgt. Smith reports "When the vehicle was towed from the scene by Lavoie's I recovered a coke bottle that contained a red liquid with a strong alcoholic alcoholic odor."

The liquid in the bottle is the liquid that Sgt. Smith smelled. This means it wasn't empty.

The report does not mention the size of the bottle, which lamima seems to have correctly pointed out, we do not know.

So we don't know how much of the liquid in the bottle she consumed, we don't know what it was, and we don't know the size of the bottle that contained the liquid. As you correctly pointed out, even a small amount of alcohol can make a bottle smell like liquor. Butch Atwood said she didn't seem intoxicated.

How can we assume that she was too drunk to make decisions?

Great follow up on Renner's comments. Assuming that Scarzina is right, this means we have no reason to believe that Maura had any hard liquor whatsoever. If he is misremembering this detail, doesn't that suggest that he might not think the alcohol is an important piece of evidence?

 

[carpanthers]

Was this coke bottle a 20 oz or a 2 liter? Did they DNA test it for proof that it belonged to Maura...I assume yes and it couldn't have been on the ground when her car came to a stop? If it was proved to be hers, then I wouldn't be surprised if it dropped and rolled under the car. Maybe she got out of car and decided she wanted one last swig and grabbed it, took a swig and just dropped it or went to toss it back in the car and it dropped on the ground and rolled. Hiding it purposely under the car makes no sense unless she was completely wasted and did things that made no sense (I can remember, back in the day, waking to find things in odd places after a night of partying). Did they test the substance in it...do we know what it was? Sorry, but I am not extremely familiar with this case.

This is a great post. For somebody who is not extremely familiar with the case, you have asked an important question. I have always assumed that it was a 2 liter Coke bottle for no reason whatsoever, and I am very glad that you pointed this out. Sgt. Smith doesn't tell us if the bottle is a 2 liter or a 20 oz. bottle, and I can't think of anything I have ever read that makes the distinction between the two different sizes of Coke bottles. If anybody remembers or finds evidence of what size the bottle was, I definitely would like to hear more on this issue.

This is why people who aren't as familiar with this case shouldn't be afraid to ask their questions or pose their theories. If you think you are remembering a fact correctly, and you want to make an argument, go ahead. If you let everyone know you aren't sure on an issue, people who have read more about the case will correct you if they know that you are wrong about a fact or if circumstances have changed since you first read about this fact. Being mistaken about or unaware of a particular fact in this case is meaningless as it relates to the value of your arguments. I don't think anybody on this board hasn't made a mistake, and I don't think anybody on this board would hold it against someone who did.

I'm glad to have a fresh perspective on this Coke bottle. It's one more thing I didn't know that I didn't know about this case.

 

[U2forever]

Could it (the Coke bottle situation) be just as simple as, she had it in her hand when she saw the bus driver approaching and ditched it fast? I mean, it's a pretty terrible hiding spot.

ETA: If we assume she was thinking rationally, I just don't see how she would believe the bottle wouldn't be found. She must have known they'd be towing the car?

ETA 2: Unless she really was drunk this time around, and using drunk-logic.

Maybe she just panicked and tossed the bottle without much thought. Was the contents ever analyzed? I know that it's popular for kids to drink Sizzrup/Purple Drank to get high and
it can be deadly. JMO

 

[carpanthers]

Maybe she just panicked and tossed the bottle without much thought. Was the contents ever analyzed? I know that it's popular for kids to drink Sizzrup/Purple Drank to get high and
it can be deadly. JMO

If she is going to toss the bottle, why not throw it into the woods? If she just tossed it, it didn't make it very far. Maura is an athlete. Why would a bottle that she tossed, from near the car, end up under the car? If a person of average strength had tossed this bottle while standing near this car, would we expect it to land under the car?

I do not know if the contents were analyzed or not, but I have never heard that they were. That is a good question.

The officer is very specific that this is a red liquid. He describes both the contents of the bottle and the stains inside the car, always referring to the substance as red liquid. Also of note is that he does not tell us that the liquid in the coke bottle is wine, or looks wine colored (which it should still be if it were mixed with clear vodka). He says the liquid is red, not wine-colored or purple or reddish or dark. He says there is red liquid on the door, and on the ceiling. Even though this is a small amount of liquid, in the officer's opinion, the liquid can still be determined to be red, like the liquid in the bottle.

This account suggests that the liquid needs to be more red than wine. It is definitely a red liquid, according to Sgt. Smith. Hawaiian Punch, perhaps? We don't know. All we know is that it was a red liquid that smelled of alcohol, in a Coke bottle that may have been 2 liters and may have been 20 oz.

Actually, your post just made me realize something important.

Sgt. Smith says in the report that "I could also see red liquid on the drivers side door and ceiling of the car."

Presumably, this is where the bottle was located when she crashed, near the drivers seat, where we expect it to be if she was, indeed, drinking from it.

Also from the report: "When I arrived I noted the above vehicle parked facing west in the eastbound lane of Wild Ammonoosuc Rd (RT 112)."

If this is the orientation of her car, the driver's side door was up against the snowbank, where we know that officers found no footprints.

Because the red liquid was on the drivers side door and the ceiling, we know that when she crashed, the bottle was near the driver's seat.

She exited the car through one of the doors adjacent to the road, because officers found no footprints.

This means she hid the bottle. It did not fall out of her car. It was near the drivers seat, which was next to the snowbank, and she never opened that door. She removed the bottle from this car.

 

[U2forever]

Yes, she had to be drinking from the bottle in order for the contents to be sloshed around. Maura probably had the red drink on her clothes too.

Slo gin comes to mind as well as cherry vodka.
JMO
The mind, it boggles and my head is going to explode. :gaah:

 

[ManyAndFew]

When I first read about the bottle I always pictured it as a 0.5-0.6 liter bottle. I just thought that if a relatively sparsely distributed, younger female specimen drank a half a liter of red wine she'd be well on her way to loaded. Not to mention 2 liters. But I never really reflected much on this.

I'm in the "succumbed to the nature" camp to be honest. And every time I think of this case I always wonder what went through her mind as she was standing by her car there. Us Norwegians, like many of you guys also, know a little about dying in the great outdoors. We have a similar climate (although a little colder) than the northern parts of the US/Canada. When I was 16 a classmate of mine died just by falling asleep in a gravel of snow as he was going home from a party. Like every year people disappear on hunting trips, on skiing trips etc. Dozens of people just cave in and die.

 

[carpanthers]

Yes, she had to be drinking from the bottle in order for the contents to be sloshed around. Maura probably had the red drink on her clothes too.

Slo gin comes to mind as well as cherry vodka.
JMO
The mind, it boggles and my head is going to explode. :gaah:

This is true. If the contents of the bottle were splashed in the area around the drivers seat, why wouldn't the contents of the bottle also splash on Maura? She could have been, and likely was, wet and smelled of alcohol. This is a great observation.

 

[carpanthers]

When I first read about the bottle I always pictured it as a 0.5-0.6 liter bottle. I just thought that if a relatively sparsely distributed, younger female specimen drank a half a liter of red wine she'd be well on her way to loaded. Not to mention 2 liters. But I never really reflected much on this.

I'm in the "succumbed to the nature" camp to be honest. And every time I think of this case I always wonder what went through her mind as she was standing by her car there. Us Norwegians, like many of you guys also, know a little about dying in the great outdoors. We have a similar climate (although a little colder) than the northern parts of the US/Canada. When I was 16 a classmate of mine died just by falling asleep in a gravel of snow as he was going home from a party. Like every year people disappear on hunting trips, on skiing trips etc. Dozens of people just cave in and die.

Isn't this funny? I bet we all have a particular size Coke bottle that we have always pictured. You are right to suggest other sizes, also. It doesn't have to be just a 2 Liter or 20 oz. bottle, it could also be a 1 Liter bottle or a .5 Liter bottle.

You could easily be right about exposure. We just realized from U2forever's post that there is a good probability that she was wet with the red drink when she left the scene.

 

[carpanthers]

Her commiting suicide is a joke if u ask me . she would have been found within days of this all happening if that were the case and dont tell me well she was a track athlete because by all accounts i have heard or read the snow was knee highwith each step you would have sunk through up to your knees which means she couldn't have ran in the woods to commit suicide not to mention that road where she crashed has no lights at all at that time of night she wouldn't have knowen what was right and what was left its scary dark if u believe the locals in that area.. Someone took her weather like i have said before maybe they came around that bend and being so dark maybe they accidentlly hit her and put her in the back to dump her body somewhere else or maybe they seen her all alone hitchhiking and picked her up again getting rid of her somewhere else reguardless of how it happend iam certain someone took her that night...

This is a possibility I hadn't considered. I also remember accounts of the scene noting that the snow was deep. The woods around the crash site were searched heavily, and I never heard that any footprints were ever found. This means that for however long she was walking, she was probably walking along the road. You are right about how dark the road is, too.

If somebody accidentally hit Maura on this road, they would have a reason to conceal her death. This means that it is possible that somebody killed Maura and hid her body, even if they aren't a serial killer.

We presume that Maura was drunk; why shouldn't we think that other drivers might be, too? We presume that Maura could have been the perpetrator of a hit-and-run, why not the victim?