NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

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So, if it's a smaller sized bottle (like 20 oz) and red liquid is seen on the door/roof of the drivers side...the car stopped with the driver's side against the snow bank and no footprints were found, then she must have climbed through the car (scooted wriggled) to get out of the passenger side???? If it's the smaller bottle that could have been laying or sitting near her as she climbed over to the passenger side and could had slid out with her and dropped on the ground. At any rate, I am not sure it matters. The no footprints thing is worrying. I am of the mind that someone picked her up pretty soon after the crash. Or she walked down the road and her footprints were run over by vehicles but she still may have taken a ride from someone. Truly baffling. Just watched a Disappeared epi about Leah Roberts...similar story and never solved. So sad!

Also, could the red liquid be Dr Pepper (mixed with vodka...ick)??? Dr Pepper was a fave back in the day, when I was young, but we mixed with Capt Morgans.
 
Went to the official report. Sgt. Smith reports "When the vehicle was towed from the scene by Lavoie's I recovered a coke bottle that contained a red liquid with a strong alcoholic alcoholic odor."

The liquid in the bottle is the liquid that Sgt. Smith smelled. This means it wasn't empty.

The report does not mention the size of the bottle, which lamima seems to have correctly pointed out, we do not know.

So we don't know how much of the liquid in the bottle she consumed, we don't know what it was, and we don't know the size of the bottle that contained the liquid. As you correctly pointed out, even a small amount of alcohol can make a bottle smell like liquor. Butch Atwood said she didn't seem intoxicated.

How can we assume that she was too drunk to make decisions?

Great follow up on Renner's comments. Assuming that Scarzina is right, this means we have no reason to believe that Maura had any hard liquor whatsoever. If he is misremembering this detail, doesn't that suggest that he might not think the alcohol is an important piece of evidence?

BBM
I think their exchange must have happened too quickly for him to make any significant observations. He didn't notice the wine spill or at least the smell of it (the car must have reeked!).

ETA: That Maura had the presence of mind to manipulate Butch into leaving the scene doesn't tell me she wasn't drunk. Drunk thinking does not mean chaotic thinking, at least not necessarily.
 
In my mind, the Coke bottle was always a smaller one. Funny how we make little assumptions without realizing it. I suppose I have a hard time picturing her one-handing a two-liter bottle while driving.

Question, why do we think it wasn't wine in the bottle?
 
carpanthers
The officer is very specific that this is a red liquid. He describes both the contents of the bottle and the stains inside the car, always referring to the substance as red liquid. Also of note is that he does not tell us that the liquid in the coke bottle is wine, or looks wine colored (which it should still be if it were mixed with clear vodka). He says the liquid is red, not wine-colored or purple or reddish or dark. He says there is red liquid on the door, and on the ceiling. Even though this is a small amount of liquid, in the officer's opinion, the liquid can still be determined to be red, like the liquid in the bottle.

Yes, but red wine is red. So saying it's a red liquid does not discount it from being wine. To me, it just sounds like a simple straightforward observation. Not choosing a more specific shade of red doesn't make it not wine.
 
Went to the official report. Sgt. Smith reports "When the vehicle was towed from the scene by Lavoie's I recovered a coke bottle that contained a red liquid with a strong alcoholic alcoholic odor."

The liquid in the bottle is the liquid that Sgt. Smith smelled. This means it wasn't empty.

The report does not mention the size of the bottle, which lamima seems to have correctly pointed out, we do not know.

So we don't know how much of the liquid in the bottle she consumed, we don't know what it was, and we don't know the size of the bottle that contained the liquid. As you correctly pointed out, even a small amount of alcohol can make a bottle smell like liquor. Butch Atwood said she didn't seem intoxicated.

How can we assume that she was too drunk to make decisions?

Great follow up on Renner's comments. Assuming that Scarzina is right, this means we have no reason to believe that Maura had any hard liquor whatsoever. If he is misremembering this detail, doesn't that suggest that he might not think the alcohol is an important piece of evidence?

BBM
I definitely do not think she was too drunk to make decisions. She made many decisions that night. The amount of alcohol she consumed could however be directly related to the rationality behind said decisions. And, as I said, I feel she was moving very quickly at this point. Not too much time to think one way or the other.
 
Okay, I just reread Butch's account and it appears he didn't get out of his bus. In that case I can understand how he may not have seen/smelled the wine mess. However, their exchange was only a few sentences. His saying that she does not appear intoxicated, to me simply means that in their short exchange, there was no noticeable signs of intoxication. So she wasn't slurring, falling over, etc. So she wasn't completely wasted drunk. Doesn't mean she wasn't drunk at all.

I wrote a post on another thread once, recounting a time that someone in my life assumed I was drunk when I was not. I'm not going into that all again, but the moral of the story was, it's difficult to assess the level of intoxication of a person unless you are that person. This is why we have sobriety tests and breathalyzers.
 
Even people who are pretty drunk can get their act together for a brief exchange. I used to see this all the time when I was a bartender. People could appear sober for long enough to order a drink.
 
My point is not that she couldn't have been drunk. It's just that we don't know she was drunk.

Butch Atwood said she didn't seem intoxicated, so it is not his opinion we rely upon to prove her intoxication.

She made several rational decisions, so we can't rely upon chaos or defect in her thinking to prove her intoxication.

The crash itself is on a curve so sharp that if you look at rt. 112 on google maps, you can instantly recognize this curve and zoom in. It is a very sharp turn that she made in winter on a rural road. We can't rely on the circumstances of the crash to prove her intoxication.

We rely on the fact that alcohol was found at the scene, even though we don't know how much she drank, to prove her intoxication.

We rely on the fact that she was drunk at the first crash to prove that she was drunk at the second, even though a trained officer near a large university determined that she was not.

We are guessing that she was drunk at the first accident, and then we use that to prove that she was drinking at the second accident. But this is another guess.
 
carpanthers


Yes, but red wine is red. So saying it's a red liquid does not discount it from being wine. To me, it just sounds like a simple straightforward observation. Not choosing a more specific shade of red doesn't make it not wine.

Couldn't you identify wine? If you did identify it, wouldn't you describe it as wine, and not a red liquid?

I'm not saying that it isn't wine. If it is wine, actually, and many people on this board have presumed that it was a smaller Coke bottle, this means we have even less proof that she was drunk. If the red liquid is a mixed drink, we don't know how much alcohol was in it. If the red liquid is wine, we know almost exactly how much alcohol is in it, and if she's drinking from a smaller bottle, this wouldn't be enough to prove she was drunk even if she drank the whole bottle, which we know from the accident report that she did not.

Sgt. Smith also tells us that the liquid has a strong alcoholic odor. Why would he choose this word if the alcohol was wine? Shouldn't wine have a normal alcoholic odor?
 
Isn't it also possible that she had only been drinking for a brief time? How do we know that she didn't start drinking after she got off the highway, when she reached more rural roads and was less fearful of getting pulled over?
 
Law Enforcement:

We have been willing to criticize law enforcement in every way possible.

We say that they should have found her after the New Hampshire crash, alleging that they did not search for her, even though this is not true. She was searched for by officers and at least one resident. A BOLO was issued, and police in other towns were looking for Maura. The dispatch records reflect that law enforcement was checking to see if she had shown up at “the cottage,” which is what the local hospital was called. To my recollection, Sgt. Smith even secured her car as a crime scene, which to me suggests competence above and beyond what is to be expected.

We allege that they did not perform ground searches for Maura in New Hampshire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5L2BPg8IWg

This video shows the end of the official ground search on 2/20/2004. That is a pretty long ground search in such a rural area, is it not?

We question why they did not search hiking trails. I’m not sure they didn’t. Regardless, if Law Enforcement chose to use their resources to search remote and inaccessible areas rather than well-traveled public hiking trails, are they really at fault in this thinking? Wouldn’t Maura’s family, which included at least one experienced hiker, prefer to search these trails themselves and leave the more difficult areas of search to officers with more experience and better equipment? And if searching the hiking trails would really have been as simple and fruitful as has been suggested, wouldn’t some evidence of Maura have been found along these trails, presumably by hikers? Are we to believe that because police “found no evidence of foul play” during these searches, that this somehow makes foul play a less likely or impossible scenario? It’s not like they found evidence of suicide, accident, or death by natural causes. They can’t even prove that she’s dead, let alone draw conclusions about how she died.

We allege that Officer Ruddock of the Hadley Police Department didn’t arrest Maura Murray for DUI even though she was driving drunk. We accuse him of negligence in his official capacity so that we can believe that Maura was drunk at the scene of this accident.

We claim that the police haven’t been actively investigating this case since a few months after she disappeared, even though we know that the New Hampshire Department Cold Case Unit has been assigned to investigate Maura’s disappearance and that the whole purpose of this unit is to actively investigate cold cases. We presume, without evidence, that they are not performing the official duties of their jobs.

Are we to believe that the officers investigating this case just labeled this a suicide on Fred Murray’s say-so? That they refused to consider other possibilities because this was Fred Murray’s first thought? That no officers ever thought she might have been the victim of a crime before Fred Murray allegedly introduced the “local dirtbag” theory? Why do we impugn law enforcement, presuming to have special knowledge as to their thoughts, by suggesting that they believe what is told to them, rather than what the evidence indicates to them? Why should a theory hold more or less weight depending upon who introduced the theory?

If law enforcement has always been convinced that Maura committed suicide, why don’t they want to release the information they have gathered? Why would information that suggested Maura committed suicide hinder an investigation? If they know that this is what happened, why don’t they tell the public so that we can focus our search on areas that are conducive to this theory? Did they perform four polygraph tests to determine what people knew about her suicide? Did they search a residence looking for evidence that Maura had taken her own life?

Is there any officer of the law or investigative department we won’t presume is lying, mistaken or incompetent in this case, just to convince ourselves that we know more circumstances than we do? To convince ourselves that we know she killed herself, or we know she was drunk, or we know some other fact that we actually do not know?

Because we want to think that suicide is the best theory, that it is better than other theories, we assume that the police know this theory to be true and that the case remains open simply because they have not found her.

Why should we assume that law enforcement is bored with this case? Are you bored with this case? Don’t you think about this case all the time? Are we to presume that the investigators of Maura’s disappearance somehow lack the humanity that attracted us all to this case? Do we think that this case doesn’t keep them up at night? In fact, I would guess that some investigators think about this case so much that they sometimes read this board.

Are we really willing to criticize all of these departments just to convince ourselves that we know she committed suicide? And if she did, in fact, kill herself, isn’t this the scenario in which law enforcement is the least responsible? Do we blame them for not tracking down an adult who left the scene of what we are willing to just assume was a DUI crash? For not preventing her suicide? For not discovering it? Do we blame them for not arresting Maura for drunk driving at the scene of the Hadley crash where a trained officer determined that she wasn’t drunk at all? Is this how they should have prevented her apparently indisputable suicide?

I just think it’s interesting that the suicide theory, in which the police are actually the least responsible for what happened to her, is the one that requires us to presume the most wrong-doing on the part of the investigators.

We want to think that law enforcement knows that this is a suicide, and that they have the information to confirm this. We think this because we want to believe that we, too, would know for certain that this was a suicide, if only we had the evidence that police are allegedly withholding from us. But we don’t know what they know or what they don’t know.
 
carpanthers


Yes, but red wine is red. So saying it's a red liquid does not discount it from being wine. To me, it just sounds like a simple straightforward observation. Not choosing a more specific shade of red doesn't make it not wine.

Some red wine is red. Most red wine is pink or purple, especially the cheap box wine that we specifically know Maura to like and possess at the time of the crash. Red wine isn't actually red any more than white wine is actually white. Describing it as red would make sense if he already thought it was wine, because red could describe the type of wine rather than its actual color. If he didn't already think it was wine, this means he was describing the actual color. He doesn't call it wine, he calls it a liquid, suggesting that he hasn't made up his mind. Most people have seen wine stains before, and they know what they look like. Maura had wine in the car. Still, this did not make the officer commit to calling them wine stains. It did not make him call the liquid wine, even though most adults know what wine looks like. I almost never drink, and if you brought me a Coke bottle full of wine I could, and would, tell you that this is wine and not some other liquid.

It could be red wine, but the officer wasn't willing to commit to that.
 
In my mind, the Coke bottle was always a smaller one. Funny how we make little assumptions without realizing it. I suppose I have a hard time picturing her one-handing a two-liter bottle while driving.

Question, why do we think it wasn't wine in the bottle?

Great point. It would be very difficult to drive with one hand and drink from a 2 liter bottle with the other. This makes it more likely that it is the kind of Coke bottle that you can drink from using one hand, 1 liter or less. If it was a 2 liter bottle, it likely wasn't full.

By the way, you mentioned SA a few pages ago and I tried to send you a message about it. I love this blog, I read it all the time. I just didn't mention it because i did not want to imply that I was an expert in SA, or anything more than a casual reader of the blog.
 
Some red wine is red. Most red wine is pink or purple, especially the cheap box wine that we specifically know Maura to like and possess at the time of the crash. Red wine isn't actually red any more than white wine is actually white. Describing it as red would make sense if he already thought it was wine, because red could describe the type of wine rather than its actual color. If he didn't already think it was wine, this means he was describing the actual color. He doesn't call it wine, he calls it a liquid, suggesting that he hasn't made up his mind. Most people have seen wine stains before, and they know what they look like. Maura had wine in the car. Still, this did not make the officer commit to calling them wine stains. It did not make him call the liquid wine, even though most adults know what wine looks like. I almost never drink, and if you brought me a Coke bottle full of wine I could, and would, tell you that this is wine and not some other liquid.

It could be red wine, but the officer wasn't willing to commit to that.

Actually, the officer isn't SUPPOSED to commit to that. That's why they say things that sound really dumb like "with what appears to be some sort of red liquid...." because it's the lab's job to analyze something and determine what it IS. The officer is just supposed to describe what it looks, smells, and sounds like. It has to do with proceduer, though I'm not sure what exactly. Sort of like how an ultrasound technician isn't allowed to tell you what he or she saw on the screen--that's the doctor's job. The u/s job is just to take the picture.
 
Actually, the officer isn't SUPPOSED to commit to that. That's why they say things that sound really dumb like "with what appears to be some sort of red liquid...." because it's the lab's job to analyze something and determine what it IS. The officer is just supposed to describe what it looks, smells, and sounds like. It has to do with proceduer, though I'm not sure what exactly. Sort of like how an ultrasound technician isn't allowed to tell you what he or she saw on the screen--that's the doctor's job. The u/s job is just to take the picture.

He tells us that the other spilled substance in the car is wine. He already did choose to identify a substance as wine, even though it hadn't been tested by a lab. This means he is comfortable making that determination based on personal knowledge.

ETA Correction: Various articles claim that wine was spilled in the car. But Sgt. Smith does not say this. He just says that there is a box of Franzia is behind the driver's seat, and that there is red liquid on the interior of the car. He never suggests that the liquid in the car came from this box. If he examined the box to confirm that it did, indeed, contain wine, he does not tell us that this is an open box or that the box has been perforated to access the spout or that it was leaking in some way. If he did not examine the box or determine if it had been open, he would not be able to confirm that the box contained wine.
 
Actually, the officer isn't SUPPOSED to commit to that. That's why they say things that sound really dumb like "with what appears to be some sort of red liquid...." because it's the lab's job to analyze something and determine what it IS. The officer is just supposed to describe what it looks, smells, and sounds like. It has to do with proceduer, though I'm not sure what exactly. Sort of like how an ultrasound technician isn't allowed to tell you what he or she saw on the screen--that's the doctor's job. The u/s job is just to take the picture.

And I certainly never said that the officer is supposed to commit to what the substance is. I said he didn't commit to it. I said we don't know it is wine. An officer who has shown us that he is willing to determine what a liquid is without laboratory testing declined to identify this substance as wine. Therefore, we should not assume that the red liquid is wine just because Maura's friends told us that she liked to drink it.
 
Actually, the officer isn't SUPPOSED to commit to that. That's why they say things that sound really dumb like "with what appears to be some sort of red liquid...." because it's the lab's job to analyze something and determine what it IS. The officer is just supposed to describe what it looks, smells, and sounds like. It has to do with proceduer, though I'm not sure what exactly. Sort of like how an ultrasound technician isn't allowed to tell you what he or she saw on the screen--that's the doctor's job. The u/s job is just to take the picture.

As to what he smelled, he went out of his way to tell us that the liquid had a strong odor of alcohol. Wouldn't wine have a normal odor of alcohol? If she added vodka to the wine, wouldn't this make it less red?
 
Here are the points I am making:

1. We don't know that Maura killed herself. We don't know she planned to kill herself. We don't have any theoretical items with which she might have killed herself. As Fireweed has often pointed out, we don't have any good theories or evidence about potential suicide methods.

2. We don't know that she is even dead. To my knowledge, no court has ever declared her dead, even though this is allowed in cases where people have been missing for so long.

3. We don't know that if she isn't dead, she would be able to call her family. Did Amanda Berry and Gina DeJesus get to call their families? Do you think that the whole world didn't tell their families that they were sure these girls were dead? Amanda Berry's mother died under that impression because of baseless speculation.

4. Everything we claim to know about Maura's state of mind is a guess.

5. Based on the investigative steps that law enforcement has taken in this case, we should presume that they have at least some suspicion that this is not a suicide.

6. We don't know that she was drunk at either crash site. At the first accident, a trained police officer a mile from a large university actually determined that she was not drunk. The only witness who saw her after the second accident said that she did not appear intoxicated. We think she must have been drunk at the second crash because alcohol was found at the scene, but we don't know what this alcohol was, what size bottle contained it (though it would probably have been hard for her to drink out of a 2 liter while driving, as DayLea suggested), how much liquid was in the bottle when she started driving, how much liquid was in the bottle when Sgt. Smith discovered it, what the alcohol content of the liquid was, when during the drive Maura started drinking the liquid or Maura's tolerance for alcohol. We don't know that she hadn't just opened this bottle to take her first sip when she came around the curve at the Weathered Barn.

7. If we are so convinced that she killed herself, we should stop blaming law enforcement for failing to prevent her hypothetical suicide.
 
I do believe that an officer would not generally commit to a specific conclusion. For example, and officer might say that, based upon his own personal observation, the bottle smelled like alcohol. He is not saying that the bottle once contained red wine and that the driver was drinking it before the crash; all he is saying is that the bottle was found underneath the car, and that it smelled of alcohol. To me that is copspeak for "we are pretty sure that Maura was drinking wine from a coke bottle while she was driving."

Anyway, I am of the opinion that LE in this case has done a perfectly fine job. One thing I am convinced of is that LE knows no more than we do about this case. They use fancy, non-legal phrases like "ongoing investigation" but really they do not know very much.
 
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