NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

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So .... take out my first sentence then and pretend that it was never said.


Two wrecks (one head-on) in the span of 48 hours
A Father's intuition which is that his daughter took off to do personal harm to herself
Her leaving a very personal note (that would cause embarrassment for her and her boyfriend) to be found to whomever it was that would first encounter her dorm room

A "staged" meltdown at work (three and a half days prior to her running away) for someone who is allegedly suppose to be impulsive

Complete avoidance of family and friends on the day she went missing

Does that sound like someone who is "fine enough" as you put it?
Does that sound like someone who was "having a good time" as Bill put it?

First of all, we do not know if FM had a father's intuition about anything. I think it is just as likely that FM called the police right away to tell them that Maura was suicidal just so that he could prevent her from being in trouble for a DUI. I think he wanted LE to look for Maura, but he was determined to have it be for the purpose of finding her ASAP but without the ramifications of a DUI and fleeing the scene of an accident.

We do not know the contents of the note. I know you think you do, but the rest of us are not sure. Not one LE official has said it was a suicide note, and the people in charge of this case certainly do not treat it like it was a foregone conclusion that Maura killer herself, and those people actually know a little bit more than you, so take that for what it is worth.

From what we have been told of Maura, she was a very private person. Did it "alarm" Billy when she sent him an email that she just did not feel like talking to anyone? It did not seem to. I would say that is because Maura may have done that on occasion.

I agree that two car accident would suck and be very stressful, but they could just point to Maura not being a very good driver, and the place she wrecked in NH just looks like one of those places where it is easy to wreck your car. Maybe Maura wrecked her father's brand new car because she had never driven it before and was not used to the level of power it had compared to the Saturn.

(modsnip)
 
Some people are truly funny.

They will spend hours/days/weeks arguing against a suicide theory when it comes to this case, yet when it comes to theories such as running away to a new life, being picked up by the wrong person, partying out in the woods with friends, tandem driving across the country, they have about one thought or one post to make on those subjects.

Why is that?


If those are all truly good theories, shouldn't there be some substance behind them somewhere?

There is. Just read the board.
 
What's wrong with "happy go lucky"?

We absolutely do not know that she wasn't.

We have interpretations of her actions. Think of Maura as a poor victim and everything that happened to her could seem depressing and lead to a troubled life conclusion. But how do we know she was a victim? Maybe she was angry, fed up with billy, fed up with Fred, her sisters, her parents divorce, her dads expectations, her perfect West Point sister....

Maybe it gave her resolve to make some changes in a life that she wanted to continue living, minus all those people that constantly demanded of her.

Her attitude may have been happy and forward looking. Her actions can be interpreted that way if you want to see her as a winner and not a victim. I interpret her actions as such and I could go through every point ever made pointing to a life spiraling downward and I can give a counter interpretation showing the exact opposite and still fit within the few facts we know.

I am still not sold on a theory but when you say that no facts point to anything other than suicide, I believe you are in error. With the right interpretation they could point to suicide, but there is more than one interpretation of the facts.
 
What I did was actually not at all straw-manning and it was in question format, which means I am not deliberately saying you were saying Maura was "happy go lucky" I was questioning whether or not that was what you were implying.

And with answers such as "Fine Enough" and "Having a Good Time" and "Smile in her face and freedom in her future" which you agreed with, those all point to someone being pretty happy go-lucky, No?

No. Those things are not "happy go lucky". If you did not have a history of strawmanning, then I would give you the benefit of the doubt that was just a question. However, since you do this all the time you no longer get the benefit of the doubt from me in that regard.

Scoops, all people are arguing is that we do not really know what Maura's mental state was. We can assume what her mental state is, but that is dependent upon us believing that Maura's intention was to kill herself. So because you always start with that, there is to you no possible way to interpret Maura's mental state as being anything other than miserable. The rest of us are trying to keep open minds and explore different avenues of thinking. That is all we are doing. Just like you, we do not know what Maura was really thinking; we are simply arguing all sides of it. That Maura was miserable and distraught has been pretty much accepted as true for a long time. Now some of us are questioning the official story here and want to explore other options.

When you say something like "happy-go-lucky" you are trying to make us all look like idiots and thus discredit our ideas and dialog. You do stuff like that all the time, and quite frankly, it is obnoxious. I am perfectly happy to have you argue against any theory or idea here. I think it is very important that we do, but when you feel the need to exaggerate and strawman a perfectly reasonable discussion to make it look unreasonable and absurd, then I will call you out on it.

Again, please stay here and engage on the board. But I must just kindly ask that when someone says something like "it seems that Maura's friends and family have a code of silence regarding this case" that you do not answer with something like "there is no evidence that the FBI was involved in a cover up!" That just is not helpful and it especially makes no sense coming from someone who claims to be a college-educated journalist with 14 years of experience.
 
No. Those things are not "happy go lucky". If you did not have a history of strawmanning, then I would give you the benefit of the doubt that was just a question. However, since you do this all the time you no longer get the benefit of the doubt from me in that regard.

Scoops, all people are arguing is that we do not really know what Maura's mental state was. We can assume what her mental state is, but that is dependent upon us believing that Maura's intention was to kill herself. So because you always start with that, there is to you no possible way to interpret Maura's mental state as being anything other than miserable. The rest of us are trying to keep open minds and explore different avenues of thinking. That is all we are doing. Just like you, we do not know what Maura was really thinking; we are simply arguing all sides of it. That Maura was miserable and distraught has been pretty much accepted as true for a long time. Now some of us are questioning the official story here and want to explore other options.

When you say something like "happy-go-lucky" you are trying to make us all look like idiots and thus discredit our ideas and dialog. You do stuff like that all the time, and quite frankly, it is obnoxious. I am perfectly happy to have you argue against any theory or idea here. I think it is very important that we do, but when you feel the need to exaggerate and strawman a perfectly reasonable discussion to make it look unreasonable and absurd, then I will call you out on it.

Again, please stay here and engage on the board. But I must just kindly ask that when someone says something like "it seems that Maura's friends and family have a code of silence regarding this case" that you do not answer with something like "there is no evidence that the FBI was involved in a cover up!" That just is not helpful and it especially makes no sense coming from someone who claims to be a college-educated journalist with 14 years of experience.

Wow, I am confused.

You say that I constantly "straw-man" which to you means I have no theory or knowledge about Maura Murray's case, so therefore I must divert attention away from "real" discussion.

Yet the "straw-man" you just accuse me of right here was in question form, which usually means I want to continue the discussion in a deeper way.

In fact, a straw-man as you describe it, is more like what you did.

When I provided information that points to someone that wasn't happy and was in fact planning something, instead of discussing that, you turned the tables on it and made it about my "straw man" question.

You know, I have heard it for years now. The suicide theory is so stupid. It is the least likely of things that could've happened to Maura. No way she would take her life in that way (by heading to her favorite destination).

But for a theory that is so stupid, it sure does lead to a whole lot of (need to) explain away and discussion.

Some of these other theories, IMO, seem half-baked to the point that they don't even go very far when it comes to discussion. Why is that?
 
Wow, I am confused.

You say that I constantly "straw-man" which to you means I have no theory or knowledge about Maura Murray's case, so therefore I must divert attention away from "real" discussion.

Yet the "straw-man" you just accuse me of right here was in question form, which usually means I want to continue the discussion in a deeper way.

In fact, a straw-man as you describe it, is more like what you did.

When I provided information that points to someone that wasn't happy and was in fact planning something, instead of discussing that, you turned the tables on it and made it about my "straw man" question.

You know, I have heard it for years now. The suicide theory is so stupid. It is the least likely of things that could've happened to Maura. No way she would take her life in that way (by heading to her favorite destination).

But for a theory that is so stupid, it sure does lead to a whole lot of (need to) explain away and discussion.

Some of these other theories, IMO, seem half-baked to the point that they don't even go very far when it comes to discussion. Why is that?

I, like almost everyone else here do not think that the suicide theory is stupid. In fact, I think it is a very good theory. I think that everyone here on the board finds the suicide theory to be legitimate. What we are saying is that other theories need to be explored.

I have argued against many of your points head-on over the years; my post was not about that. It was about pointing out that your method here makes your arguments less forceful. If you have a theory to discuss, then you would have no reason to pull out the strawman, and I actually do think that you have good points, which is why your method baffles me a bit.

And many times a theory starts off half-baked and then turns into something more tangible. It is okay to start a discussion about something and hash it out. That is all we are doing here. We have discussed the suicide theory quite a lot and now we are just going over some new ideas. That does not mean that anyone thinks that the suicide theory is stupid, and I have not seen a single, solitary post here that says that. Not one. So I have no idea how on earth you got that into your head.
 
Some people are truly funny.

They will spend hours/days/weeks arguing against a suicide theory when it comes to this case, yet when it comes to theories such as running away to a new life, being picked up by the wrong person, partying out in the woods with friends, tandem driving across the country, they have about one thought or one post to make on those subjects.

Why is that?


If those are all truly good theories, shouldn't there be some substance behind them somewhere?

Most people are not arguing against the suicide theory, at least most people discussing Maura here currently are very open to the possibility. What at least a few of us are arguing against is your conclusion that the "facts" point to nothing else. You are not budging on your belief but to make your point you: 1. regurgitate the same tired interpretations of her actions as fact and 2. ridicule any other interpretation of the facts. There is a lot of substance to other theories if you take one step further back and start with only the fact, not someone's interpretation of that fact.

For example: the Note left on the boxes. The fact is that there was some form of printed matter left on top of boxes in her dorm room that turned out to be an email from Billy to Maura. That is the only part that is fact.

Your interpretation (based on someone else's interpretation in whole or in part): A very personal note (that would cause embarrassment for her and her boyfriend) to be found by whomever it was that would first encounter her dorm room.

(I know it was alleged to contain some discussion about Billy's infidelity but the public has not seen it, so I wouldn't consider it a known fact)

Alternate interpretation: (I would not consider a printed copy of ANYTHING as "very personal", that's a bit dramatic, but I digress,) She decided to toss Billy aside with the rest of them and hit the road to her new life. It may have contained some personal information but was just a reminder to Billy of his infidelity (I like this part and will use it in my interpretation) and what he just lost. Maura left it there as a final "**** you " to a cheating lying shithead of a boyfriend. Adios amigo!!

Can you see that the same fact can be interpreted in at least 2 different ways? Can you see that taking a different track still fits with the very few facts we know? I am sure an interpretation could be made about this same fact to cover other scenarios. Lop off all the prior interpretations and editorializing of the few known facts and it opens the door to many other theories.

I know you will wait for Fireweed to respond to this before you acknowledge it, (weird), but please do not go all sarcastic and condescending about it. This is a real thing noticed by many. As much as you want to toe the suicide line, other ideas exist and they have merit.
 
Wow, I am confused.

You say that I constantly "straw-man" which to you means I have no theory or knowledge about Maura Murray's case, so therefore I must divert attention away from "real" discussion.

Yet the "straw-man" you just accuse me of right here was in question form, which usually means I want to continue the discussion in a deeper way.

In fact, a straw-man as you describe it, is more like what you did.

When I provided information that points to someone that wasn't happy and was in fact planning something, instead of discussing that, you turned the tables on it and made it about my "straw man" question.

You know, I have heard it for years now. The suicide theory is so stupid. It is the least likely of things that could've happened to Maura. No way she would take her life in that way (by heading to her favorite destination).

But for a theory that is so stupid, it sure does lead to a whole lot of (need to) explain away and discussion.

Some of these other theories, IMO, seem half-baked to the point that they don't even go very far when it comes to discussion. Why is that?

Reading through some of the past cases on here that were solved in part by WS members I believe it is safe to say some of the most "half baked" sounding theories come out being mostly true. Not everything that looks like a suicide is a suicide.

There are plenty of factors to consider in a case and if every detective out there went into a case with your mindset we wouldn't have half the disappearing persons cases solved.
 
I think sometimes people forget how very porous the borders were even after 9/11. Everyone must understand that despite a need for tighter border control, there simply was not the infrastructure in place to make that a reality for quite some time. I think it was in 2009 or so that one needed a passport to go to Mexico. Things did not happen immediately after 9/11. Maura could have crossed into Canada and just shown her DL, without anyone scanning it.

In 2005 for several passes across the border(NH/VT border with Quebec, the same route Maura would likely have taken if that is what she did) INTO Canada, I never showed ID, not even a Driver License. Coming back, I was only asked for ID (Driver license) once.
 
For me, there's so much that doesn't make sense about the suicide theory. The biggest is, why not just kill yourself at UMass? I don't accept this romantic, driving into the mountains to commune with nature before I kill myself theory. That doesn't happen in real life. I believe she was starting a new life. And I will never believe she encountered an opportunistic killer in the five minute window on the side of the rural road (where the PI later discovered only 7 cars pass by that spot in a typical hour). However... there is a chance she got spooked after the crash and somebody hit her with their car. But where's the body? I know Scoops gets upset whenever I mention this, but the ground was searched extremely well. The volunteer searchers for the family combed the area within a mile radius of where she disappeared. But more than that, the authorities conducted two extensive ground searches, with a team of officers and volunteers. It ain't there.
 
That said, I enjoy Scoops' analytical mind and wish he would take another look from the beginning.
 
That said, I enjoy Scoops' analytical mind and wish he would take another look from the beginning.

Despite what many here think, I like a lot of what scoops says. I just wish that he would go about responding to us in more respectful manner. I also do not think that he needs to lie about having been a journalist for 14 years in order to bolster his credibility. It is strange to me.
 
For me, there's so much that doesn't make sense about the suicide theory. The biggest is, why not just kill yourself at UMass? I don't accept this romantic, driving into the mountains to commune with nature before I kill myself theory. That doesn't happen in real life. I believe she was starting a new life. And I will never believe she encountered an opportunistic killer in the five minute window on the side of the rural road (where the PI later discovered only 7 cars pass by that spot in a typical hour). However... there is a chance she got spooked after the crash and somebody hit her with their car. But where's the body? I know Scoops gets upset whenever I mention this, but the ground was searched extremely well. The volunteer searchers for the family combed the area within a mile radius of where she disappeared. But more than that, the authorities conducted two extensive ground searches, with a team of officers and volunteers. It ain't there.


You make an excellent point. Sure the wilderness is very large, but after an accident and walking on foot she would not have gotten very far. Even walking in mostly a straight line. The body should have been found by now provided it was a normal suicide.
 
You make an excellent point. Sure the wilderness is very large, but after an accident and walking on foot she would not have gotten very far. Even walking in mostly a straight line. The body should have been found by now provided it was a normal suicide.

I am always a bit wary of finding anything truly conclusive about this. It just seems that so often bodies are found not very far from where they were last seen, and in an area that was either searched, or that is not that far from the search zone.

I know that Steve Fosset was a different case, but there were a lot of people searching for him, and they had an entire airplane to look for. They also knew about where he would be. It was a hiker who stumbled upon the wreck later by chance who found him. I wonder if that hiker had never found him if he would still be missing.
 
Most people are not arguing against the suicide theory, at least most people discussing Maura here currently are very open to the possibility. What at least a few of us are arguing against is your conclusion that the "facts" point to nothing else. You are not budging on your belief but to make your point you: 1. regurgitate the same tired interpretations of her actions as fact and 2. ridicule any other interpretation of the facts. There is a lot of substance to other theories if you take one step further back and start with only the fact, not someone's interpretation of that fact.

For example: the Note left on the boxes. The fact is that there was some form of printed matter left on top of boxes in her dorm room that turned out to be an email from Billy to Maura. That is the only part that is fact.

Your interpretation (based on someone else's interpretation in whole or in part): A very personal note (that would cause embarrassment for her and her boyfriend) to be found by whomever it was that would first encounter her dorm room.

(I know it was alleged to contain some discussion about Billy's infidelity but the public has not seen it, so I wouldn't consider it a known fact)

Alternate interpretation: (I would not consider a printed copy of ANYTHING as "very personal", that's a bit dramatic, but I digress,) She decided to toss Billy aside with the rest of them and hit the road to her new life. It may have contained some personal information but was just a reminder to Billy of his infidelity (I like this part and will use it in my interpretation) and what he just lost. Maura left it there as a final "**** you " to a cheating lying shithead of a boyfriend. Adios amigo!!

Can you see that the same fact can be interpreted in at least 2 different ways? Can you see that taking a different track still fits with the very few facts we know? I am sure an interpretation could be made about this same fact to cover other scenarios. Lop off all the prior interpretations and editorializing of the few known facts and it opens the door to many other theories.

I know you will wait for Fireweed to respond to this before you acknowledge it, (weird), but please do not go all sarcastic and condescending about it. This is a real thing noticed by many. As much as you want to toe the suicide line, other ideas exist and they have merit.

I guess I really (honestly) don't see myself as towing the suicide line (and that is what frustrates me the most and makes me feel like I constantly have to defend and answer for myself).

If I am at all "married" to something concerning this case, it would be my interpretation of the facts/information of the case (which then leads me to the suicide theory).

Maybe that is the same thing.

But I don't see it that way.


I would have no trouble jumping theories, if something new developed or some piece of information came out that clarified an issue.

But I have been firm in my place for many years now, because what I have interpretated has led me down one path and nothing has come along to sway be back another direction.

I honestly believe that is how "real" investigations work too (maybe I'm wrong).

Investigators, I would like to think, don't pick a theory right from jump and then go out and try to solve their case working in the constraints of their theory.

They only start with what evidence they have and they let that evidence grow and lead (in a more natural way) to an actual theory. They don't dictate the theory of what happened, their research and evidence unveils the theory to them.

I seem outspoken against other theories, because they seem to follow that example I just gave.

The approach is, let's come up with a theory right from jump (like Maura ran away to start a new life) and we'll try and twist the information around that is known about the case to fit our theory.

My approach (at least I believe I have done it) was never to work off a theory when doing research.

I scooped up as much information as I could, analyzed interviews of family members in the press, made notes of conflicting information and the origins of that confliciting information, to try and pinpoint down the truth, went back and conducted a pair of interviews myself with people involved in the case, just to try and nail down clarification of factual information etc etc..

None of that stuff was done (by me I swear) with suicide being in the back of my mind as this is what had to have happened to Maura.


Once I processed everything, really tried to understand where everyone was coming from in this case (in other words, not just taken their words as fact), then the suicide theory, I guess you could say, developed.

I originally believed Maura succumbed to the elements.

That was my first instincts after my first attempt at learning about the case.

But what I quickly found out was that there were a lot of conflicting information out there, and what actually pulled me in more (to want to spend time on this case) was not wanting to prove out a theory, but I just wanted to be the person that would go through and straighten out all the details of the case to make it less confusing for everyone else.

And somehow in the end, this is where its at.

The whole rub is that on one hand I do feel confident I have done my due diligence in researching this case, much like someone who is studying for an exam, who put in a lot of time and feels confident that they will not be surprised come test day.

On the other hand, I could have interpretated the "facts" wrong.

But with so many things at least that could possibly point to suicide in this case, (and yes one could argue point for point on each suicidial indicator that I have mentioned) where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

And there are too many things that have to be explained away (IMO) when it comes to the suicide theory.

And I can't see that in any other theory that I have heard about this case.
 
Well scoops, I respect that you have done a lot of research and analysis. We all agree that suicide is a very viable theory in this case. I just have to respond to something that I think is really bogging down your ability to go with the flow a little bit more on this board: we are not investigators. We are lay people on a website. Of course we are going to discuss things that might seem a little outlandish or without a ton of evidence. That is fine. We are just hashing things out here. If you think that we should behave like investigators, then this is not the place for you.

And I still believe that many things that you think are facts may or may not even be accurate or true. Additionally, a great many things you call facts are merely your interpretation of a set of circumstances. I believe that we here are also entitled to create our own interpretation of those circumstances, and that the right to do that does not just belong to you.
 
Well scoops, I respect that you have done a lot of research and analysis. We all agree that suicide is a very viable theory in this case. I just have to respond to something that I think is really bogging down your ability to go with the flow a little bit more on this board: we are not investigators. We are lay people on a website. Of course we are going to discuss things that might seem a little outlandish or without a ton of evidence. That is fine. We are just hashing things out here. If you think that we should behave like investigators, then this is not the place for you.

And I still believe that many things that you think are facts may or may not even be accurate or true. Additionally, a great many things you call facts are merely your interpretation of a set of circumstances. I believe that we here are also entitled to create our own interpretation of those circumstances, and that the right to do that does not just belong to you.

Well said.
 
So, I don't have a lot of knowledge about this case and I am not a sleuther. I first heard of this case when I saw the Disappeared episode (when it first aired). At the time I thought she must have run away and had to be out there somewhere because surely they would have found her remains...surely. They have searched extensively. But then I came to WS and started reading all these cases where bodies weren't found right away (ie: Jamison family). So, now I am feeling like she did plan to run away/take a hiatus but maybe that accident sent her over the edge and she ran into the wilderness and succumbed to the elements and her remains have been overlooked.
 
So, I don't have a lot of knowledge about this case and I am not a sleuther. I first heard of this case when I saw the Disappeared episode (when it first aired). At the time I thought she must have run away and had to be out there somewhere because surely they would have found her remains...surely. They have searched extensively. But then I came to WS and started reading all these cases where bodies weren't found right away (ie: Jamison family). So, now I am feeling like she did plan to run away/take a hiatus but maybe that accident sent her over the edge and she ran into the wilderness and succumbed to the elements and her remains have been overlooked.

I agree with both sides here, oddly enough. On the one hand, there were extensive searches done in the area, and Maura could have only gone so far on foot in the conditions she was in. On the other hand, as many cases have shown, bodies are often found not far from a search area, or right in a search area. But then again, in Maura's case, there were apparently no footprints going off into the woods (that could be seen), and dog lost her scent just a ways up the road (indication of perhaps getting into a car).

I also think that people who claim that Maura just walked off into the woods should do their own little "experiment" and go walk off into the woods by themselves alone at night and in winter. It is really scary. Everything in your instinct would be screaming against it.
 
I agree with both sides here, oddly enough. On the one hand, there were extensive searches done in the area, and Maura could have only gone so far on foot in the conditions she was in. On the other hand, as many cases have shown, bodies are often found not far from a search area, or right in a search area. But then again, in Maura's case, there were apparently no footprints going off into the woods (that could be seen), and dog lost her scent just a ways up the road (indication of perhaps getting into a car).

I also think that people who claim that Maura just walked off into the woods should do their own little "experiment" and go walk off into the woods by themselves alone at night and in winter. It is really scary. Everything in your instinct would be screaming against it.

Yeah. Due to the conditions I'm wondering if that wreck wasn't partially staged to throw any investigators off. Though that isn't easy to say without knowing what state her mind was in at the time. I agree somewhat of the theories that suggest a lead vehicle. The fact the dog wasn't able to follow her scent any further combined with the footprints really makes it unlikely in my mind that her last breaths were taken at that location.

Walking alone in your neighborhood can cause fear or a feeling of unease. Now add the unknown wilderness and suddenly you're in a state of panic at every noise you hear.
 
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