NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

[coolaid213]

And what actual evidence are people using to place Maura in Canada living a clandestine life.

what actual evidence is there of a killer snatching Maura away from the scene of an accident.

What actual evidence is there that Maura is a sociopath? Now we are all clinical psychologists all of a sudden.

I'm not exactly a fan of Renner, it appears he has uncovered some real factual information in the past. However, a lot of the other things he has said strike me as ridiculous.

I don't think there is any evidence that she was planning on going to Canada or went to Canada, this is one of those things that Renner based on some people living in Canada who claimed to see a woman like her. I don't put much stock in those claims, and I really consider that more of a distraction unless he can come up with some hard evidence.

There is no hard evidence that a killer snatched Maura, but there isn't any hard evidence that she committed suicide either.

As for Renner's claim that Maura was a sociopath... a lot of people exhibit sociopathic behaviors without actually being sociopaths, so it's hard to tell. If he would have called her a pathological liar, that would be more accurate and easy to defend. It does appear that she lied to everyone in the days leading up to her disappearance. That could be evidence that she was planning on killing herself, or it could be evidence that she was hiding something completely different. Until we find a body, or she turns up alive somewhere, we won't really know. All I can say is the suicide theory doesn't resonate with me as much as the other three theories. I just don't think she was suicidal... but maybe she was! I don't know, and I'm not going to put anyone down for what they think one way or the other.

 

[JeannaT]

I visit this case from time to time, and once thought she intended to disappear for awhile, and then ran down the hill to get away carrying most of her alcohol and died during the night.

It was intriguing the People Magazine article that changed my mind. Who stuffed the rag in her exhaust pipe, knowing it would only be a short matter of time before her car quit?

 

[lawstudent]

Death by acetaminophen OD takes days, I think. Would very likely outlast a non-fatal sedative ingestion, even if the person was knocked out for a while.

Random thoughts - can't sleep. Haven't been here in forever so sorry for the disjointedness.

Sociopaths are not defined by lying so much as lack of empathy, right? That is definitely way too extreme to apply based on what we know, IMO, but as someone suggested, pathological lying seems present. It would also go along with her overwhelmed, falling apart state, and the bolting - that seems to be consistent with pathological liars whose lies start getting out of control. But I don't think they'd stay gone. Clearly she was under psychological stress, but that could mean any number of things. I have known a few pathological liars who were young women, though, and the description of Maura before her disappearance is consistent. They become too wrapped up in the fake life to start a new one, though. They need people they can rely on or something - people they already read well and they feel they can get attention from. They are hard to cut out of your life - they always pop back in when you least expect it. if it turns out she is leading another life somewhere, that indicates to me much broader issues that may have lead to lots of lying and other behaviors that would not be the primary issue. It suggests someone who is "lost", not "bad" in the sense of being intentionally manipulative or purely selfish.

 

[Caffeine]

I'm not exactly a fan of Renner, it appears he has uncovered some real factual information in the past. However, a lot of the other things he has said strike me as ridiculous.

I don't think there is any evidence that she was planning on going to Canada or went to Canada, this is one of those things that Renner based on some people living in Canada who claimed to see a woman like her. I don't put much stock in those claims, and I really consider that more of a distraction unless he can come up with some hard evidence.

There is no hard evidence that a killer snatched Maura, but there isn't any hard evidence that she committed suicide either.

As for Renner's claim that Maura was a sociopath... a lot of people exhibit sociopathic behaviors without actually being sociopaths, so it's hard to tell. If he would have called her a pathological liar, that would be more accurate and easy to defend. It does appear that she lied to everyone in the days leading up to her disappearance. That could be evidence that she was planning on killing herself, or it could be evidence that she was hiding something completely different. Until we find a body, or she turns up alive somewhere, we won't really know. All I can say is the suicide theory doesn't resonate with me as much as the other three theories. I just don't think she was suicidal... but maybe she was! I don't know, and I'm not going to put anyone down for what they think one way or the other.

It's good to see someone actively reporting on the case, but conversely, when looking at the facts I definitely don't draw the same conclusion he does. He certainly doesn't portray Maura favorably at times and for the Murray family to avoid him is quite understandable, not suspicious.

He feels Maura is alive and well, maybe in Canada. Why? Based on an anonymous post on Topix? He feels she ran away from her problems and Fred is acting suspicious. Maura certainly isn't Whitey Bulger, so it's hard to make that assumption. I do think Fred takes a lot of blame unfairly here, but I can't imagine he orchestrated a disappearance and it's tough to fathom a 21 year old girl felt so badly over minor (IMO) screw ups that she would decide to vanish forever and leave her family hanging.

Is it possible? Sure. Would I place money on that outcome. Doubtful.

 

[Fireweed]

Maybe I'm in the wrong place Scoops, I thought this was a place for amateur sleuthing? Not a place where you call people ignorant if they don't agree 100% with your theory. I am probably the most open minded of anyone here. As I said, there are 4 main explanations for what happened that night, and I could believe any one of them. I think that from the point she wrecked her car we have no way of knowing what she did, or what she was thinking from that point forward. She could have committed suicide, she could have died accidentally, she could have been picked off by someone, or she could have made a successful getaway. Exploring a theory other than the one you're dead set on isn't "silly", that's how you get answers. You haven't solved this case yet, so why can't I ask questions?

Scoops has done all kinds of "research" and he has boxes full of documents in his house which support his suicide theory. Now, he won't just create a blog and put up the documents for everyone to see, or even write up a blog post about what his brilliant "research" even was. No, we are all just supposed to know that he is a genius with tons more information than the rest of us and that is why he can be so confident in his theories.

The saddest part is that scoops probably has a few gems in there, but we will never know because he refuses to share anything with anyone else and instead he comes here and spends his time shooting down other people's theories.

Hey, on that same sort of tangent, I hate bringing this up but I feel that I have to. So I suppose it's just the way it is going to be, but the people running the podcasts, books, documentaries, etc are all men. That is fine but all these guys have got something in their heads that just drives me crazy. Guys, yes a young woman can absolutely fake a "breakdown" at work and have it look real. Also, Maura was likely not trying to get out of work. If she was faking the breakdown then it was so that the subsequent disappearance would look more legit. Maura was not adverse to lying and stealing. I used to have a best friend like this. She could lie about anything, no matter how serious (OMG I've just been raped!), and she could have easily faked a breakdown like that. It is not that hard to do if you have a strict father who does not take no for an answer. If you were in that position, you too would learn the art of faking excessive drama. It is the only way you feel you are being "heard".

 

[Lolacat]

Scoops has done all kinds of "research" and he has boxes full of documents in his house which support his suicide theory. Now, he won't just create a blog and put up the documents for everyone to see, or even write up a blog post about what his brilliant "research" even was. No, we are all just supposed to know that he is a genius with tons more information than the rest of us and that is why he can be so confident in his theories.

The saddest part is that scoops probably has a few gems in there, but we will never know because he refuses to share anything with anyone else and instead he comes here and spends his time shooting down other people's theories.

Hey, on that same sort of tangent, I hate bringing this up but I feel that I have to. So I suppose it's just the way it is going to be, but the people running the podcasts, books, documentaries, etc are all men. That is fine but all these guys have got something in their heads that just drives me crazy. Guys, yes a young woman can absolutely fake a "breakdown" at work and have it look real. Also, Maura was likely not trying to get out of work. If she was faking the breakdown then it was so that the subsequent disappearance would look more legit. Maura was not adverse to lying and stealing. I used to have a best friend like this. She could lie about anything, no matter how serious (OMG I've just been raped!), and she could have easily faked a breakdown like that. It is not that hard to do if you have a strict father who does not take no for an answer. If you were in that position, you too would learn the art of faking excessive drama. It is the only way you feel you are being "heard".

Completely agree Fireweed. It would be very refreshing to have a female take on this. As a woman, I think people tend to forget that anger is the most basic taboo emotion for women to express. For men, they can express their anger all the live long day and no one bats an eyelid but for a woman to express anger? Well that's just not on according to society so of course it seeps out in dysfunctional ways like lying and passive aggressiveness. Of course, men have their own taboo emotions, sadness being the most obvious one. For a man to express anger is considered normal and part of his testosterone experience but for him to cry is considered by many to be a form of "weakness" which is just as ridiculous as not allowing women to express anger in an obvious way. Maura may well have been a sociopath, I am not a psychologist and cannot answer that question but I am an occupational therapist who has done my time in many a forensic unit and have noticed two major things regarding sociopaths. 1. Lack of empathy and 2. A complete inability to take responsibility for one's actions. I have heard a range of almost comical excuses when it comes to poor behaviour, everything from blaming the victim for crying too loudly to society as a whole. Of course, these are very extreme examples of sociopathy/psychopathy and many individuals can exhibit these traits without being in any way a danger to society. I guess my point is: just because a woman lies compulsively and is good at manipulating others does not make her a sociopath. Heck, I grew up an only child and was very perceptive of the adults around me. I could easily manipulate any one of them when it came to something I wanted. This was something I learnt because I quickly realised expressing my REAL anger was *not allowed* within polite British society. Was maura manipulative and a liar? Hell yes. But think on this: maybe it's because she had no other means of power or control over her own life...

 

[takeitfromme412]

Completely agree Fireweed. It would be very refreshing to have a female take on this. As a woman, I think people tend to forget that anger is the most basic taboo emotion for women to express. For men, they can express their anger all the live long day and no one bats an eyelid but for a woman to express anger? Well that's just not on according to society so of course it seeps out in dysfunctional ways like lying and passive aggressiveness. Of course, men have their own taboo emotions, sadness being the most obvious one. For a man to express anger is considered normal and part of his testosterone experience but for him to cry is considered by many to be a form of "weakness" which is just as ridiculous as not allowing women to express anger in an obvious way. Maura may well have been a sociopath, I am not a psychologist and cannot answer that question but I am an occupational therapist who has done my time in many a forensic unit and have noticed two major things regarding sociopaths. 1. Lack of empathy and 2. A complete inability to take responsibility for one's actions. I have heard a range of almost comical excuses when it comes to poor behaviour, everything from blaming the victim for crying too loudly to society as a whole. Of course, these are very extreme examples of sociopathy/psychopathy and many individuals can exhibit these traits without being in any way a danger to society. I guess my point is: just because a woman lies compulsively and is good at manipulating others does not make her a sociopath. Heck, I grew up an only child and was very perceptive of the adults around me. I could easily manipulate any one of them when it came to something I wanted. This was something I learnt because I quickly realised expressing my REAL anger was *not allowed* within polite British society. Was maura manipulative and a liar? Hell yes. But think on this: maybe it's because she had no other means of power or control over her own life...

I like the way you think!!! I still do personally feel she was in the wrong place at the wrong time... BUT I respect everyone;s theories for the most part. Finding Maura is the ONLY way to answer the question of was this intended? Accident? Homicide? Suicide? Is she somewhere living a new life?.... hmmmmmmm

 

[lawstudent]

It is not that hard to do if you have a strict father who does not take no for an answer. If you were in that position, you too would learn the art of faking excessive drama. It is the only way you feel you are being "heard".

Yes, this is very true. Not saying it was the case here, but I do think it is interesting. And it may not even be faking - it's just, if you are in a situation where fighting back never gets you anywhere and you are frustrated to the point of tears, it starts to become the go-to response. It can be the only one that works, or at least makes those people realize you do care and are desperate for help or understanding. Let it all build to a breaking point.

ETA: the gender issue is an important one to keep in mind - I forget that people of so many different backgrounds are involved with this case, which seems to hinge so much on analysis of her mental state and reactions. I think often when young men start acting out because of mental health problems, it often seems threatening, and is taken seriously. Women are more likely to act in ways deemed 'dramatic' or 'spoiled' - to be taken seriously, they have to fall apart completely and come across totally helpless and lost instead.

 

[U2forever]

Since Tylenol PM has been discussed as part of an OD, I don't think Maura would even try and OD taking Tylenol PM. JMO
The APAP (acetaminophen) is a very painful and slow way to die on. Most people wanting to OD on pills are expecting swift results without pain. Fall asleep forever.

APAP causes liver failure and liver poisoning; 4 grams is what the average healthy liver can handle in a 24 hour period. Alcohol will only hasten the damage to the liver as well
as cause Kidney problems.
Benadryl (Diphenhydramine), in large doses causes kidney and bladder problems. Benadryl is also a Deliriant, which causes hallucinations and
from what I have read, is not pretty.

Since Maura was a nursing student close to graduating, I assume she would know that you can die from OD'ing on Tylenol PM. It will be from the acetaminophen and it will/can cause indefinite liver damage. The Diphenhydramine effects will be prominent but not life threatening compared to APAP.

It's hard to beLIEve Maura has been missing for almost 12 years. Her case is the reason I found WS and I'm sure many can attest to that and are here for good, as well as sleuthing many other cases.

Fresh eyes on a case can do wonders, and that's the reason so many Sleuthers are here (for many other cases too), as well as on other sites, doing what LE has no time for, no manpower and funds for. JMO
Keeping Maura alive in her threads, journalist and authors writing books, keeping blogs, coming up with ideas, some find far fetched and ridiculous at times. JMO

Maura's threads here are huge, we leave no stone unturned. Over and over we go over her case, hoping and praying we find that one clue, the one piece of evidence that
has been overlooked, or not overlooked, just looked over.
The more we come here digging deeper and deeper, reading the same thing over and over, does one thing, keeps Maura alive in our hearts and our minds, hopefully,
until we find what we are looking for.

The biggest case killer is SILENCE.

 

[Fireweed]

Yes, this is very true. Not saying it was the case here, but I do think it is interesting. And it may not even be faking - it's just, if you are in a situation where fighting back never gets you anywhere and you are frustrated to the point of tears, it starts to become the go-to response. It can be the only one that works, or at least makes those people realize you do care and are desperate for help or understanding. Let it all build to a breaking point.

ETA: the gender issue is an important one to keep in mind - I forget that people of so many different backgrounds are involved with this case, which seems to hinge so much on analysis of her mental state and reactions. I think often when young men start acting out because of mental health problems, it often seems threatening, and is taken seriously. Women are more likely to act in ways deemed 'dramatic' or 'spoiled' - to be taken seriously, they have to fall apart completely and come across totally helpless and lost instead.

I have just noticed that people (even adults) with parents who are not able to listen to their child tend to be hyper-dramatic so that they might get their way. So on the podcast everyone is totally convinced that Maura did not fake her breakdown at work. They know this because the supervisor who witness the breakdown thought it was real. Well as a person who has seen a couple of people "fake" breakdowns I am not convinced. First of all, the breakdown itself is not really fake in a lot of ways. The person doing it really does need attention and help, just not with whatever it is they are pretending to break down over. Also, I would need to know what kind of a background the supervisor came from. If she comes from a very stable and rational home, then it may not even cross her mind that such things can be faked.

One other reason I do not think the breakdown was real: so this happens late Thursday/early Friday morning, and Maura is out to dinner and a party just one day later? I have been less distraught than "catatonic breakdown at work/requires escort home" level and I was not out partying and going out for dinner that weekend.

 

[coolaid213]

I have to address this Tylenol PM thing again. I'm just going to be honest, I don't care if people think I'm a loser. When I was younger I used to experiment with dipehnhydramine. There were times I probably took extremes of 20 pills (500mg). No one should ever try this, it's not healthy... I was a stupid teenager... anyway. Hypothetically speaking, if Maura took a bottle of Tylenol PM, she would likely be unconscious long before the painful and deadly effects of the acetaminophen/paracetamol set in. Diphenhydramine starts making you sleepy the moment your stomach starts absorbing it. In fact, it is speculated that Bill Cosby used this stuff to incapacitate his alleged victims. It is true that diphenhydramine is a deliriant and can cause powerful auditory and visual hallucinations, but I must stress, this only occurs after a period of time when you fight the urge to sleep. The urge to sleep even after taking the recommended dose is VERY strong. She could have taken two pills and still been very groggy. There are no short term negative health impacts though. She wouldn't have had any reason to believe that taking diphenhydramine would cause any more pain than she'd already feel from dying of hypothermia. So IF she did plan on suicide, it makes sense to me that she would use these to ease the pain, because she'd be unconscious before the hypothermia set in. When you finally pass out from intoxication, you generally sleep for a very long time until your body metabolizes all of the DPH.


With that said, I still don't think she was trying to commit suicide. And Fireweed, your inbox is full! lol

 

[Steleheart]

I have to address this Tylenol PM thing again. I'm just going to be honest, I don't care if people think I'm a loser. When I was younger I used to experiment with dipehnhydramine. There were times I probably took extremes of 20 pills (500mg). No one should ever try this, it's not healthy... I was a stupid teenager... anyway. Hypothetically speaking, if Maura took a bottle of Tylenol PM, she would likely be unconscious long before the painful and deadly effects of the acetaminophen/paracetamol set in. Diphenhydramine starts making you sleepy the moment your stomach starts absorbing it. In fact, it is speculated that Bill Cosby used this stuff to incapacitate his alleged victims. It is true that diphenhydramine is a deliriant and can cause powerful auditory and visual hallucinations, but I must stress, this only occurs after a period of time when you fight the urge to sleep. The urge to sleep even after taking the recommended dose is VERY strong. She could have taken two pills and still been very groggy. There are no short term negative health impacts though. She wouldn't have had any reason to believe that taking diphenhydramine would cause any more pain than she'd already feel from dying of hypothermia. So IF she did plan on suicide, it makes sense to me that she would use these to ease the pain, because she'd be unconscious before the hypothermia set in. When you finally pass out from intoxication, you generally sleep for a very long time until your body metabolizes all of the DPH.


With that said, I still don't think she was trying to commit suicide. And Fireweed, your inbox is full! lol

I think this is more correct. I think the point of Tylenol PM is the sleepiness not the OD effects, Diphenhydramine at a low (50mg) dose plus the alcohol would simply make it easier to fall asleep before the effects of hypothermia.

Though I don't think this is what MM did, I do think that the original thoughts were along this line rather than the toxicity of Tylenol.


MOO

 

[Fireweed]

I have mentioned here before that I was once a very heavy drinker and that I took OTC sleeping pills, like Tylenol PM but without the pain reliever. Obviously it is just anecdotal but I never had a problem with it. It was not the smartest thing to do but it made me drowsy and more importantly it stopped me from waking up in the night. When an alcoholic drinks a lot in the evening, she will often wake up at 3 or 4 in the morning when she is starting to sober up. This is the most miserable thing. You cannot get back to sleep and you feel horrible amounts of guilt and anxiety.

But really what do we actually know about Maura? I mean she was a runner and athlete up until just a few months before she went missing. Is it just as possible that Maura had some issues with pain and so she always took Tylenol PM? Everyone assumes that Maura's heart was just no longer into running but it is not unheard for an athlete who pushed herself hard in her youth to be rather beat up by her early 20's.

 

[gnomony]

Just want to comment on postings that suggest MM wandered off into the woods, or ran into the woods, or even hiked into the woods. If you look at the terrain next to the road where she disappeared, there are only a couple of alternatives:

1) In many places, she would literally have had to "crawl" into the woods, up or down steep embankments and through dense brush.

2) In other places, given the snow on the ground, she might have "struggled" into the woods, or perhaps "wallowed," if the snow were soft. Without a broken-out trail, "hiking" would have been extraordinarily difficult and "wandering" or "running" would have been impossible.

3) The most accessible and perhaps inviting places to leave the road, especially in limited light, would have been where the road runs along the riverbed, which would likely look like a small field or clearing. The ice might have held her up -- until it didn't. If she broke an ankle stepping into a hole or was otherwise incapacitated (through drugs, alcohol or physical mishap), she might have expired there. If so, all evidence would have disappeared a few weeks later with the tremendous flood of water that comes down that river each spring when the ice goes out. It obliterates everything in its path.

Me? I think she took her father's money and made a run for it. I hope she escaped.

 

[Fireweed]

There are a lot of grown men who run the blogs, books, documentaries, podcasts, secret research, etc when it comes to this case. I just want one of them to go up to Haverhill on a night like the one when Maura went missing (going up there in July to gauge the conditions won't count) and then I want them to walk straight into the woods all by themselves without a flashlight or any clue where they are going. Here is the thing: even for a grown man that will be scary. I know, I know, they are going to argue that Maura was suicidal blah, blah, blah but I must seriously question if even suicidal people do not still have a great many of their human instincts intact. I would bet my life that the vast majority of suicides by far occur either in daylight or indoors with the lights on.

I once went camping by myself in the woods and it was really, really scary and I am never doing it again. During the day it was a lot of fun, but at night you realize just how alone you are. Human beings have a deep instinct to not be alone in "dangerous" places.

 

[wfgodot]

The woods are lovely, dark and deep

 

[bluesneakers]

The woods are lovely, dark and deep

Santa?

 

[wfgodot]

Santa?

Horse, not reindeer.

 

[peeksneeka]

The woods are lovely, dark and deep

But I've got promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.


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[peeksneeka]

The woods are lovely, dark and deep

Just because poetry romanticizes it, doesn't mean the woods at night are a lovely place. I doubt they are a lovely place at all,


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