NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

[carpanthers]

I realize that James Renner's motivation for his blog, at least at this point, is just to increase interest in the case in hopes that this will inspire folks to buy his latest book (purportedly due out next month). Even when I read his blog through this lens, I am a bit baffled at some of the leaps he makes, and the way he seems to do his research by just throwing out accusations willy nilly in hopes that someone will take pity on him and enlighten him (or perhaps that someone will get angry enough with him that they will toss him a few informational bones due to anger).

I have to say that if he was interacting with me in the ways that he has reported interacting with SA and KM, I certainly wouldn't speak with him. Depending on the true time frame and his persistence I might have considered contacting my local law enforcement about filing harassment or stalking charges.

It also wouldn't surprise me if SA and/or KM have been more forthcoming with law enforcement than Renner believes. Law enforcement often minimizes witness's contributions so as not to compromise witness safety and/or their investigation.

I definitely agree with this. It also wouldn't surprise me if Fred Murray had eventually been more forthcoming, too

 

[Curiosum]

I definitely agree with this. It also wouldn't surprise me if Fred Murray had eventually been more forthcoming, too

If you mean forthcoming with LE then I think that is certainly possible and probably more likely than not. I see no reason why FM would share anything with Renner. Renner is essentially exploiting the Murray family's pain for his financial gain. I realize that he will argue he is a journalist but, in my opinion, he really has shifted beyond that. I also question, if he has crossed far enough over in some cases that a case could be made for defamation/libel. We won't likely see this but Renner's research seems so spotty that I think he would have a hard time proving a factual basis for his claims and good due diligence.

 

[carpanthers]

If you mean forthcoming with LE then I think that is certainly possible and probably more likely than not. I see no reason why FM would share anything with Renner. Renner is essentially exploiting the Murray family's pain for his financial gain. I realize that he will argue he is a journalist but, in my opinion, he really has shifted beyond that. I also question, if he has crossed far enough over in some cases that a case could be made for defamation/libel. We won't likely see this but Renner's research seems so spotty that I think he would have a hard time proving a factual basis for his claims and good due diligence.

I do mean more forthcoming with LE. I think it is extremely possible that Kate, Sara and Fred long ago shared everything they know with LE, and I don't see any reason to think that they would tell the press or the public if anyone of them had retracted a statement, in part or in whole.

I don't put any particular stock in whether or not a person wanted to speak with James Renner about this case. I think people could have plenty of reasons for this, including general privacy.

I agree with you that a lot of people have faced needless scrutiny over there. I think about that poor guy who typed her Stop & Shop card number into the database all the time. That had to be one of us, right? That's one of the sleuthiest things I've ever heard. I cringed when I read that story. I think this is something that could have happened to a lot of people on here, myself included. This person did us all a big favor by confessing to this instead of letting us needlessly explore this angle.

So are you out there, Stop & Shop sleuth? I bet you have a lot of interesting things to say about this case.

 

[Ricochet]

I realize that James Renner's motivation for his blog, at least at this point, is just to increase interest in the case in hopes that this will inspire folks to buy his latest book (purportedly due out next month). Even when I read his blog through this lens, I am a bit baffled at some of the leaps he makes, and the way he seems to do his research by just throwing out accusations willy nilly in hopes that someone will take pity on him and enlighten him (or perhaps that someone will get angry enough with him that they will toss him a few informational bones due to anger).

I have to say that if he was interacting with me in the ways that he has reported interacting with SA and KM, I certainly wouldn't speak with him. Depending on the true time frame and his persistence I might have considered contacting my local law enforcement about filing harassment or stalking charges.

I agree with this and have thought this for quite sometime. In his blog, whether intentional or not, he comes across as hostile towards anyone associated with the Murray's, and to some extent like he's entitled to a response from them. There is some motive for SA and KM not to talk to him, because I suspect, if they don't go along with his theory that Maura is off living a new life somewhere then they must be lying. Unless he's holding something back, which is possible and likely for his book, I don't think much of what he's posted on his blog supports his theory. He went to Canada, but nothing ever came to fruition with that and then it was dropped. I plan on buying his book, and hope something is presented to make me change my mind regarding my theory because Maura living a new life somewhere is much more interesting than she died from exposure.

 

[Ricochet]

To Curiosum - it says that you're a verified physician can you provide some information on hypothermia? My understanding is if she was intoxicated that would make her more susceptible and it doesn't have to be below freezing to get hypothermia. Do you know how long it would take for her to begin to show symptoms and do you think hypothermia is likely?

thanks

 

[carpanthers]

I agree with this and have thought this for quite sometime. In his blog, whether intentional or not, he comes across as hostile towards anyone associated with the Murray's, and to some extent like he's entitled to a response from them. There is some motive for SA and KM not to talk to him, because I suspect, if they don't go along with his theory that Maura is off living a new life somewhere then they must be lying. Unless he's holding something back, which is possible and likely for his book, I don't think much of what he's posted on his blog supports his theory. He went to Canada, but nothing ever came to fruition with that and then it was dropped. I plan on buying his book, and hope something is presented to make me change my mind regarding my theory because Maura living a new life somewhere is much more interesting than she died from exposure.

I am really glad that you mentioned the exposure theory. I have been thinking recently that the seeming lack of footprints in the woods near the crash site may indicate that she was either on the road until she was far past the crash site or she quickly got into a car. It seems very possible that Maura could have died of exposure regardless of how far she may have traveled, and if she did make it a fair distance up 112 before she went into the woods, it may make her far more difficult to find.

 

[scoops]

To Curiosum - it says that you're a verified physician can you provide some information on hypothermia? My understanding is if she was intoxicated that would make her more susceptible and it doesn't have to be below freezing to get hypothermia. Do you know how long it would take for her to begin to show symptoms and do you think hypothermia is likely?

thanks

I apologize if this was only intended for Curiosum to reply too, but I wanted to weigh in on this topic.

Fred Murray is believed to have made the following statement (to his son-in-law at the time) as they were searching for Maura (as relayed by the son-in-law).

"I remember him pointing up to the mountain and saying, 'She walked up there. We'll find her at the top. Drunk and naked.' Why naked?"

This right away spoke to me of a knowledgeable hiker who was referring to the hypothermia condition known as Paradoxical Undressing.

Paradoxical Undressing means: is a term for a phenomenon frequently seen in cases of lethal hypothermia. Shortly before death, the person will remove all their clothes, as if they were burning up, when in fact they are freezing. Because of this, people who have frozen to death are often found naked and are misidentified as victims of a violent crime. (source for definition: Weird Universe)

Now because the son-in-law was completely baffled that Fred would describe his daughter as going to be found naked up in the mountains, that to me made it more likely that the son-in-law wasn't just making up something to try and paint fred in a bad light. Otherwise, why make up such an unusal statement when you have no idea what the guy you are trying to smear is even trying to say.

So that is why I believe the statement Fred made to be credible (see how getting to the bottom of the truth works carpanthers, you just don't take a statement and run with it).

Some people (on James Renner's blog as an example) have read that statement to mean maybe fred was talking sexual about his daughter.

I find that to be ridiculous.
I believe an experienced hiker (talking when the cameras weren't rolling on him) was candidly giving some insight into a very real possible scenario that could've taken place with Maura.

And yes that does appear to support a possible suicide theory IMO

 

[carpanthers]

To Curiosum - it says that you're a verified physician can you provide some information on hypothermia? My understanding is if she was intoxicated that would make her more susceptible and it doesn't have to be below freezing to get hypothermia. Do you know how long it would take for her to begin to show symptoms and do you think hypothermia is likely?

thanks

If she were wet with red liquid, could this accelerate hypothermia? Could her potential intoxication make hypothermia more likely?

 

[carpanthers]

If Maura was an experienced hiker, I think it is very possible that she knew about paradoxical undressing. I sometimes wonder what Maura would have thought of this. Would she have perhaps wanted to avoid a hypothermic death because she would not want to be found naked? I think most people don't want to be found naked.

This doesn't mean she didn't die from exposure, of course. I just wonder if she would have avoided it because of this.

 

[Ricochet]

If she were wet with red liquid, could this accelerate hypothermia? Could her potential intoxication make hypothermia more likely?

That's another good point. If she's wet that would likely make her more susceptible.

Scoops - I agree that Fred didn't sexually abuse Maura. I think Fred is controlling, and wants people to see Maura as the perfect All-American girl when in reality she has skeletons in her closet like most of us. It's hard to know what the real Maura was really like because on the one hand she appears to be so innocent and on the other she stole someone's credit card number and used it on 6 different occasions.

 

[carpanthers]

That's another good point. If she's wet that would likely make her more susceptible.

Scoops - I agree that Fred didn't sexually abuse Maura. I think Fred is controlling, and wants people to see Maura as the perfect All-American girl when in reality she has skeletons in her closet like most of us. It's hard to know what the real Maura was really like because on the one hand she appears to be so innocent and on the other she stole someone's credit card number and used it on 6 different occasions.

I agree that Fred did not abuse Maura.

I'm glad you brought up the credit card, too. When the police asked Maura where she got the credit card number, she told them that she got it off of a receipt from the trash room. But the police determined this to be untrue, and confiscated from Maura a piece of paper with several other credit card numbers.

How did she get so many credit card numbers? Sometimes I think that her job would have afforded her a good opportunity. At Maura's job, she sat at a desk in the dorms and checked IDs. Students and their guests would give Maura their student IDs or driver's licenses, and Maura would copy down the ID numbers as well as the time they arrived. I believe it was fairly common for students to accidentally leave a wallet on this desk by mistake. I believe it was also common for students to leave personal property in the lobby or by the mailboxes. If the cluster office were closed, I believe this property would likely have been turned in to the employee monitoring the desk (Maura's job).

Do you think that Maura could have obtained the credit card numbers from misplaced property she encountered at her job? We know that the theft she was charged with was from a female UMass student.

Do you think that the police followed-up on the other card numbers? Do you think it is possible that the police were investigating her for other potential thefts, with regards to the other card numbers, at this time?

 

[Ricochet]

I agree that Fred did not abuse Maura.

I'm glad you brought up the credit card, too. When the police asked Maura where she got the credit card number, she told them that she got it off of a receipt from the trash room. But the police determined this to be untrue, and confiscated from Maura a piece of paper with several other credit card numbers.

How did she get so many credit card numbers? Sometimes I think that her job would have afforded her a good opportunity. At Maura's job, she sat at a desk in the dorms and checked IDs. Students and their guests would give Maura their student IDs or driver's licenses, and Maura would copy down the ID numbers as well as the time they arrived. I believe it was fairly common for students to accidentally leave a wallet on this desk by mistake. I believe it was also common for students to leave personal property in the lobby or by the mailboxes. If the cluster office were closed, I believe this property would likely have been turned in to the employee monitoring the desk (Maura's job).

Do you think that Maura could have obtained the credit card numbers from misplaced property she encountered at her job? We know that the theft she was charged with was from a female UMass student.

Do you think that the police followed-up on the other card numbers? Do you think it is possible that the police were investigating her for other potential thefts, with regards to the other card numbers, at this time?

I know James Renner is trying to put a different spin on this and unless he has additional information, I'll stick with what's in the police report. There's nothing to suggest it happened differently than what's stated in the report.

On November 3rd the victim goes into the police station and files a report stating that someone made unauthorized purchases with her credit card number.

Later that evening Maura attempted to use the credit card number by placing an order from Pinocchios. Maura goes down to the lobby to sign the receipt and the police catch her. They go with her to her room and ask to see the credit card that she used to place the order. She tries to get out of it by giving the police her credit card. The numbers don't match and they tell her "now's the time to come clean about where she had gotten the credit card number". She stated it was from a receipt. The officer asked what receipt and Maura said a receipt from Pinocchio's. The full credit card number wasn't on the Pinocchio's receipt and then Maura stated if it wasn't on the Pinocchio's receipt then it would've been the Domino's receipt. She then produced a note card with the credit card number and a dorm room down the hall from Maura. There were other numbers on the note card but those were telephone numbers. The police walked down the hall to the dorm number that was listed on the note card and asked the girl if she knew Maura, she didn't. Then they asked the girl if she had noticed any unusual charges on her credit card and she hadn't. She stated her friend, who lived in the same building though had. She called her friend, and moments later she was down stairs. They asked her if she ever had food delivered to the room (I assume her friend) at any point in time. She stated that she often ordered food to room (I assume her friend). The police asked what she did with the receipt when she got it and she stated "puts it in the trash room along with discarded food." At that time Officer Pinkham observed the trash room between room (?) and (?). He thanked the girl for her time and told her that Officer Rivera would be in contact with her soon.

Maura stated she had used the credit card approximately 6 times, and gave no reason why she did it. She agreed to payback the money ($79.02). She had a hearing December 16, 2003 and was held responsible for the charges and if she stayed out of trouble for 3 months (March 16, 2004. then the charges would be dismissed.

By-the-way the full credit number is listed on the police report. It's page 20 and starts out 4326 and ends in 1944. It'd be nice if there was a way to find who the owner of that number was back in 2003.

 

[carpanthers]

I know James Renner is trying to put a different spin on this and unless he has additional information, I'll stick with what's in the police report. There's nothing to suggest it happened differently than what's stated in the report.

On November 3rd the victim goes into the police station and files a report stating that someone made unauthorized purchases with her credit card number.

Later that evening Maura attempted to use the credit card number by placing an order from Pinocchios. Maura goes down to the lobby to sign the receipt and the police catch her. They go with her to her room and ask to see the credit card that she used to place the order. She tries to get out of it by giving the police her credit card. The numbers don't match and they tell her "now's the time to come clean about where she had gotten the credit card number". She stated it was from a receipt. The officer asked what receipt and Maura said a receipt from Pinocchio's. The full credit card number wasn't on the Pinocchio's receipt and then Maura stated if it wasn't on the Pinocchio's receipt then it would've been the Domino's receipt. She then produced a note card with the credit card number and a dorm room down the hall from Maura. There were other numbers on the note card but those were telephone numbers. The police walked down the hall to the dorm number that was listed on the note card and asked the girl if she knew Maura, she didn't. Then they asked the girl if she had noticed any unusual charges on her credit card and she hadn't. She stated her friend, who lived in the same building though had. She called her friend, and moments later she was down stairs. They asked her if she ever had food delivered to the room (I assume her friend) at any point in time. She stated that she often ordered food to room (I assume her friend). The police asked what she did with the receipt when she got it and she stated "puts it in the trash room along with discarded food." At that time Officer Pinkham observed the trash room between room (?) and (?). He thanked the girl for her time and told her that Officer Rivera would be in contact with her soon.

Maura stated she had used the credit card approximately 6 times, and gave no reason why she did it. She agreed to payback the money ($79.02). She had a hearing December 16, 2003 and was held responsible for the charges and if she stayed out of trouble for 3 months (March 16, 2004. then the charges would be dismissed.

Thank you so much for posting this, I am very glad to know that they were phone numbers. Do you have an opinion about how Maura actually got this card number? I don't think any companies print the whole credit card numbers on the receipt.

 

[Ricochet]

Thank you so much for posting this, I am very glad to know that they were phone numbers. Do you have an opinion about how Maura actually got this card number? I don't think any companies print the whole credit card numbers on the receipt.

It was 2003, and I think some businesses still printed the full credit card number. I think she picked the receipt out of the trash.

 

[Ricochet]

found this..


Federal Law Requires All Businesses to Truncate Credit Card Information on Receipts
What’s on the credit and debit card receipts you give your customers? The Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the nation’s consumer protection agency, says it’s time for companies to check their receipts and make sure they’re complying with a law that’s been in effect for all businesses since December 1, 2006.

According to the federal Fair and Accurate Credit Transaction Act (FACTA), the electronically printed credit and debit card receipts you give your customers must shorten — or truncate — the account information. You may include no more than the last five digits of the card number, and you must delete the card’s expiration date. For example, a receipt that truncates the credit card number and deletes the expiration date could look like this:

ACCT: ***********12345
EXP: ****

 

[carpanthers]

found this..


Federal Law Requires All Businesses to Truncate Credit Card Information on Receipts
What’s on the credit and debit card receipts you give your customers? The Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the nation’s consumer protection agency, says it’s time for companies to check their receipts and make sure they’re complying with a law that’s been in effect for all businesses since December 1, 2006.

According to the federal Fair and Accurate Credit Transaction Act (FACTA), the electronically printed credit and debit card receipts you give your customers must shorten — or truncate — the account information. You may include no more than the last five digits of the card number, and you must delete the card’s expiration date. For example, a receipt that truncates the credit card number and deletes the expiration date could look like this:

ACCT: ***********12345
EXP: ****

More great information. So she could have been telling the truth about this matter.

I noticed that when police talked to the owner of the card, she said that her friend who lived in the building had some strange charges on her card. She called this friend and the friend spoke to the police. Do you think that Maura could have been involved in this other theft? Or is this just a coincidence? I think maybe it could be either. Do you think it is possible that Maura went to a party where both of these girls were in attendance (they were friends) and perhaps took the numbers from a purse or a coat?

 

[Ricochet]

here's more info on that

While Congress passed this provision in December 2003, it has been phased in gradually, requiring merchants with newer electronic card processing machines to comply by December 2004. Merchants with older machines were given until December 1, 2006. So now all companies that electronically print credit or debit card receipts must truncate the information on the copy they give their customers. That’s why it’s important to make sure all your equipment complies with the law.

 

[JamesRenner]

Interesting. You have purposefully rewritten what is actually in the police reports. When the officer asked for the credit card number, Maura retrieved a note card. On that note card were several other numbers. I will quote here: "I looked it over and asked what the other numbers on the card were she stated that they were friends phone numbers." There is nothing that says they were, in fact, phone numbers. Are we to believe Maura Murray?

 

[Ricochet]

Interesting. You have purposefully rewritten what is actually in the police reports. When the officer asked for the credit card number, Maura retrieved a note card. On that note card were several other numbers. I will quote here: "I looked it over and asked what the other numbers on the card were she stated that they were friends phone numbers." There is nothing that says they were, in fact, phone numbers. Are we to believe Maura Murray?

Isn't it obvious? I've not seen a phone number before with 16 digits.

Do you have an official document that I can look at otherwise I'm going with phone numbers. Also a visa is going to start with a 4 and a mastercard a 5

 

[Ricochet]

Also James, from your blog

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2012/01/maura-used-stolen-credit-card-number.html

The comment--
Ann Marie February 6, 2014 at 7:32 AM
It was my credit card that she used. She took the numbers off of a receipt that was taped to a pizza box in our dorm trash room. After I reported the incident the bank credited me back the money immediately and I never though about it again until she went missing. I only knew who they caught because I happened to be outside her room when the police went in. Mr Renner is correct, it was several weeks before I noticed because she ordered food from all the same places I ate at until she finally ordered from a place that I had never been to before. Someone who lived on the same floor as her told me they thought she was bulimic. What a horrible, sad story. It's too bad her family and the people who love her haven't been able to get any closure after all these years.

Maura also said if it wasn't the Pinocchio's receipt it was the Domino's receipt which supports the statement from Ann Marie