NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

[Fireweed]

I think you might be a bit biased by your own perspective as hopefully you aren't as troubled as Maura! For most hikers this might be the case but as I said, Maura was incredibly troubled, the book is quite morbid, suicidal people often idealize the place where they commit suicide and this is where she disappeared.

I am not saying she necessarily was suicidal, she could have been, but she was very troubled at the very least.

I am not biased, I am simply making a point about the "meaning" of a particular book. I simply think it is a leap to say that owning a book like that indicates a suicidal mind, when it could indicate just the opposite: a mind hell-bent of living.

 

[leilarose68]

If the book can take on new meanings, how do we know what the meaning of the book was at the time she disappeared?

Do you mean mentally troubled? What kind of troubled do you think Maura was?

Uh well she stole lots of things and was believed to have an eating disorder (which can often be associated with stealing). It's been discussed in past threads I guess.

And I don't know. But I don't think it's at all unreasonable to look critically at a book that largely focuses on deaths in mountains when you're dealing with a troubled women who was headed there and never seen again.

 

[Fireweed]

Uh well she stole lots of things and was believed to have an eating disorder (which can often be associated with stealing). It's been discussed in past threads I guess.

And I don't know. But I don't think it's at all unreasonable to look critically at a book that largely focuses on deaths in mountains when you're dealing with a troubled women who was headed there and never seen again.

That is what we are doing here right now, the three of us. When looking at something critically, it is important that we challenge each other.

 

[leilarose68]

I am not biased, I am simply making a point about the "meaning" of a particular book. I simply think it is a leap to say that owning a book like that indicates a suicidal mind, when it could indicate just the opposite: a mind hell-bent of living.

I don't mean to say that your perspective is wrong, it's just that Maura seems more mentally unstable than your average hiker.

And to set it straight, I never said that because she owned the book it indicated a suicidal mind. I said that it is not at all unreasonable to consider a beloved book the largely focuses on death and struggle in the mountains into a person's disappearance, as they disappeared while traveling there.

I think your perspective is possible but it's probably a little more hopeful and optimistic than realistic. I mean, she was really not doing well and didn't exactly seem on the upswing. I don't think there's any indication she was particularly optimistic but that's just me. Her mind was in great distress. I suppose we diverge on the started a new life versus some kind of suicide scenario theory so we're going to interpret it differently.

 

[carpanthers]

If she stole lots of things, wouldn't this give her a reason to run away? What if the police thought she stole more things? Being troubled doesn't necessarily mean you are suicidal.

I'm not against looking critically at the book, that's exactly what I'm doing. The book doesn't discuss suicide, it discusses individuals who did not take the precautions necessary to survive in the White Mountains.

We don't know how long Maura owned this book, but we know that Karen Mayotte once found her reading a book that was probably Not Without Peril (if it wasn't, this means Maura read other hiking books). We know that Maura frequently visited the White Mountains.

It is quite possible that Maura had already been to the White Mountains while she was the owner of this book, and did not take her own life on that occasion.

 

[Fireweed]

I don't mean to say that your perspective is wrong, it's just that Maura seems more mentally unstable than your average hiker.

And to set it straight, I never said that because she owned the book it indicated a suicidal mind. I said that it is not at all unreasonable to consider a beloved book the largely focuses on death and struggle in the mountains into a person's disappearance, as they disappeared while traveling there.

I think your perspective is possible but it's probably a little more hopeful and optimistic than realistic. I mean, she was really not doing well and didn't exactly seem on the upswing. I don't think there's any indication she was particularly optimistic but that's just me. Her mind was in great distress. I suppose we diverge on the started a new life versus some kind of suicide scenario theory so we're going to interpret it differently.

I have thought about this a lot actually, and here is something I have been tossing around in my mind for a while. (btw, like everything this is not my set-in-stone perspective, just something I thought about). Is it possible that a person who has set a plan in motion to solve their problems is in an optimistic state of mind? Let's just say theoretically that Maura was intending to just run away. Maybe she was feeling a little better as she drove up there, now that she had finally made that first step. I dunno, I think it is possible that a distressed and disturbed person might turn a little optimistic if they thought that they had at long last found a solution for their problems.

Oh, and btw, I think this could apply to suicide as well.

 

[leilarose68]

I have thought about this a lot actually, and here is something I have been tossing around in my mind for a while. (btw, like everything this is not my set-in-stone perspective, just something I thought about). Is it possible that a person who has set a plan in motion to solve their problems is in an optimistic state of mind? Let's just say theoretically that Maura was intending to just run away. Maybe she was feeling a little better as she drove up there, now that she had finally made that first step. I dunno, I think it is possible that a distressed and disturbed person might turn a little optimistic if they thought that they had at long last found a solution for their problems.

Oh, and btw, I think this could apply to suicide as well.

Apparently many people who are planning to commit suicide feel energized before they commit the act. It's like, they know the suffering will be over soon so they feel like they can enjoy things for a minute.

 

[leilarose68]

I have thought about this a lot actually, and here is something I have been tossing around in my mind for a while. (btw, like everything this is not my set-in-stone perspective, just something I thought about). Is it possible that a person who has set a plan in motion to solve their problems is in an optimistic state of mind? Let's just say theoretically that Maura was intending to just run away. Maybe she was feeling a little better as she drove up there, now that she had finally made that first step. I dunno, I think it is possible that a distressed and disturbed person might turn a little optimistic if they thought that they had at long last found a solution for their problems.

Oh, and btw, I think this could apply to suicide as well.

The thing is... Maura crashed her car. And she was clearly drinking, right? I just don't think she was of sound mind enough for me to feel like she had this truly longterm gungho spirit about her.

 

[carpanthers]

The thing is... Maura crashed her car. And she was clearly drinking, right? I just don't think she was of sound mind enough for me to feel like she had this truly longterm gungho spirit about her.

But we don't know when she started drinking or how much she drank.

 

[Fireweed]

I do not think that Maura was that drunk because she probably had only started drinking less than three hours or so before the crash. The crash site looks to me like a place where a person could easily crash their car. Sometimes people drink because they are in celebratory mood, not a down one.

 

[leilarose68]

I do not think that Maura was that drunk because she probably had only started drinking less than three hours or so before the crash. The crash site looks to me like a place where a person could easily crash their car. Sometimes people drink because they are in celebratory mood, not a down one.

I don't see enough indication that her mind was in an optimistic mindset versus the downward spiral she seemed to be on in other aspects of her life.

edit: Generally when a troubled person is drinking, it doesn't elevate them into a celebratory place. Just my 2 cents. of course, it's possible she was in a celebratory mood but I don't see any evidence that she had turned herself around 180 degrees

 

[leilarose68]

This is kind of off topic... but if you guys came across Maura and it was CLEARLY her, would you call the tip line right away? Try to engage her? What if she didn't want to be found---would you take that into consideration?

 

[Fireweed]

I don't see enough indication that her mind was in an optimistic mindset versus the downward spiral she seemed to be on in other aspects of her life.

I personally have a hard time coming to any good conclusion when it comes to Maura's mental state in the days and weeks before her disappearance. I think that much of what could be evidence for her totally falling apart could just as easily be her own set-up for her disappearance.

 

[Fireweed]

This is kind of off topic... but if you guys came across Maura and it was CLEARLY her, would you call the tip line right away? Try to engage her? What if she didn't want to be found---would you take that into consideration?

I would call the tip line right away. I would probably try and surreptitiously take a photo of her, but I would not engage her. I would not take that into consideration, as this is an actual police matter and people have been questioned, asked to take lie detector tests, etc. It is too serious for that.

 

[carpanthers]

We don't know how big the coke bottle was. Many people have suggested that a 20 oz. bottle would be easier to drink from while driving, and I agree with this statement. In the pictures of the car that were taken years after the crash, a crumpled 20 oz. (could be 16 oz. I guess, but I think it is 20 oz.) diet coke bottle is visible through the windshield. Of course, we don't know that this is the bottle.

But if it were a 20 oz. bottle, and we know that Sgt. Smith found liquid still in the bottle, and we know that some of the liquid spilled on the driver's side door and ceiling, this would mean that Maura drank somewhere between 0 and 20 oz. of a liquid of unknown alcoholic content.

Butch Atwood told reporters that Maura did not appear intoxicated.

I'm not saying she wasn't drunk, but I think it is just as likely that she was not.

 

[Fireweed]

I don't see enough indication that her mind was in an optimistic mindset versus the downward spiral she seemed to be on in other aspects of her life.

edit: Generally when a troubled person is drinking, it doesn't elevate them into a celebratory place. Just my 2 cents. of course, it's possible she was in a celebratory mood but I don't see any evidence that she had turned herself around 180 degrees

Back when I was drinking and troubled, if anything was going right in my life, I drank a great deal in celebratory way.

 

[leilarose68]

I personally have a hard time coming to any good conclusion when it comes to Maura's mental state in the days and weeks before her disappearance. I think that much of what could be evidence for her totally falling apart could just as easily be her own set-up for her disappearance.

Yeah, I guess I just have a hard time believing that someone who had such a history of mental health issues and was totally failing in most areas of her life could orchestrate something like that. I think the easiest answer is the best, most believable one in this case but I guess that's just me.

 

[Fireweed]

We don't know how big the coke bottle was. Many people have suggested that a 20 oz. bottle would be easier to drink from while driving, and I agree with this statement. In the pictures of the car that were taken years after the crash, a crumpled 20 oz. (could be 16 oz. I guess, but I think it is 20 oz.) diet coke bottle is visible through the windshield. Of course, we don't know that this is the bottle.

But if it were a 20 oz. bottle, and we know that Sgt. Smith found liquid still in the bottle, and we know that some of the liquid spilled on the driver's side door and ceiling, this would mean that Maura drank somewhere between 0 and 20 oz. of a liquid of unknown alcoholic content.

Butch Atwood told reporters that Maura did not appear intoxicated.

I'm not saying she wasn't drunk, but I think it is just as likely that she was not.

I think she was on a "three beer buzz". She was not very drunk, but she was not also perfectly sober. I think she had somewhere between two and four glasses of wine. In that situation, a person having a casual encounter with you might not be able to tell.

 

[leilarose68]

Back when I was drinking and troubled, if anything was going right in my life, I drank a great deal in celebratory way.

Right, but most things in Maura's life were going horribly. There just isn't any evidence for an upswing...

 

[Fireweed]

Yeah, I guess I just have a hard time believing that someone who had such a history of mental health issues and was totally failing in most areas of her life could orchestrate something like that. I think the easiest answer is the best, most believable one in this case but I guess that's just me.

I do not see a history of mental issues at all. She stole some stuff at WP, and she stole a credit card. We do not know if she had an eating disorder, and she may have been in he beginning stages of a drinking problem. Overall nothing about Maura's life screams of a person with a bunch of serious problems.

I think that perhaps the stealing could be seen from a different POV. I think that Maura could not express her own wants and needs to her family. The pressure to succeed was too great. Why would someone like Maura steal makeup and order pizza on a stolen CC? My own theory is that she did it so that she could get kicked out of WP, and was hoping for the same at Amherst.