NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

[nycpizzaparty]

Maura could have just been re-reading the book, and that's the chapter she had happened to reach, hense the book mark.

It's so incredibly easy to understand the book as just paraphernalia surrounding her favourite hobby. Insisting it's a clue about what happened to her is dismissing the much simpler explaination of 'she liked hiking therefore she liked book about hiking', rather than the outlandish 'she read book about someone dying, therefore she decided to commit suicide'.

With all due respect, nobody said " 'she read book about someone dying, therefore she decided to commit suicide'." I think there is something to be said for having the book in her possession while apparently driving toward areas adjacent to the White Mountains - it could be innocent or not.

 

[scoops]

BTW, has anyone noticed that if you google "rag in tailpipe", all of the results are related to this case. I can't find a single website that doesn't mention putting a rag in a tailpipe outside of the context of the Maura Murray case. Why did her father ask the police to check for a rag in the tailpipe? Some have speculated that the car wouldn't have made it from her dorm to the accident scene if the rag was already stuffed inside the tailpipe. Other people have speculated that she stuffed the rag in the tailpipe to hide the fact that she used it to sop up alcohol in the interior of the car. I can't imagine why she'd care about sopping up alcohol if the plan was immediate suicide. So why was the rag in there? Suicide? That wouldn't have been effective without a bad exhaust leak that was venting into the car. If she put the rag in after the accident, I can only imagine it was some sort of signal... if the rag was in there all along and didn't effect the car's performance, then why did he make a big deal out of asking the police to search for it. No matter what happened, you just can't deny that the circumstances surrounding her disappearance are very unusual.

Fred never told police to check for the rag in the tailpipe. the first responding officer to the wreck found the rag lodged into the tailpipe the night of the accident.

The fact the rag was lodged into the tailpipe pretty much rules out that it was used to signal anything.

Fred was confronted (IMO) with the rag in the tailpipe. And fred had to come up with an explanation and account for it.

 

[scoops]

Maura could have just been re-reading the book, and that's the chapter she had happened to reach, hense the book mark.

It's so incredibly easy to understand the book as just paraphernalia surrounding her favourite hobby. Insisting it's a clue about what happened to her is dismissing the much simpler explaination of 'she liked hiking therefore she liked book about hiking', rather than the outlandish 'she read book about someone dying, therefore she decided to commit suicide'.

You're right.

Its all very innocent.

She probably mistakenly packed the book thinking it was one of her school books, because afterall, she was all about keeping up with her studies.

In fact on her way to Canada after being abducted, I think she would've torn pages out of the book and left them behind on the road for her tandem driver partner to see. That was probably the real intention of her having that book to begin with. It was about the white mountains, so it would seem fitting that she leave a trail of pages from the book for her mystery friend in the mystery red truck to see as that friend troughed along through the white mountains looking to hook up with Maura for a party they were secret rendezvousing to out in the forest.

 

[Steleheart]

Not to mention that if the snow happened to be that hard-packed, slippery and a bit icy on the surface kind, that'd make it damn near difficult to run with just sneakers on, nevermind fast., experienced runner or not. And even if the snow pack wasn't hardened or icy on the surface layer, but regular old February heavy powder, sinking into 2-3 feet of snow would have made it even more of a feat to get away that quickly, never mind running through it long enough to get very far from the road.
Unless she had snowshoes on.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes. I guess we don't know what kind of equipment she had - snowshoes, XC skis, backpacking accessories, etc. There has never been any mention of winter gear.

But I have been in the White Mountains in winter and snow shoed and XC skied on just level land mostly around the Sawyer River area. I spent many a winter in the mountains of Vermont as well and snow shoed upward and back again. The work required is only for the fittest people, LOL Not me.
Sometimes, by February, there can be several layers of crust and powder. Walking, even with good boots is treacherous and it isn't very far from the road where you can break through and fall flat on your face.

I find the speculation that she is somewhere in the woods because she wanted to get somewhere up there in February to be highly unlikely - unless she herself drank all of the $40 worth of alcohol and then acted ridiculously out of character for her knowledge of those mountains.

There were no notes mentioning leaving this world, there was no talk of suicide before her disappearance, there were no previous attempts or threats - there was NOTHING typical of a possible suicidal person. She crashed, she was charged, she searched pregnancy/ alcohol. There were school troubles, boyfriend, parenting problems etc. None of that points to suicide IMO. In fact it seems like nothing more than a troubled young life that maturity can correct.

:cow:

 

[toronto_allie]

I've been following this case for a year and I still feel like there is so much I don't know. I was rereading the Boston Magazine article from Feb 2014 and something stuck out to me - apologies if this has already been discussed! BBM

From page 2 of the article:

She withdrew $280 from an ATM—almost all of the money in her account—and purchased, according to police, Baileys, Kahlúa, vodka, and box wine from a nearby liquor store. She checked her voice mail at 4:37 p.m., her last known call. She told no one where she was going.

From page 3:

In a house steps away from the Saturn, resident Faith Westman had also called the police. She said she saw what looked like a man smoking a cigarette in the car; her husband later said it could have been a woman on a cell phone.

She couldn't have been using her cell after the crash if her last call was while she was picking up alcohol because we'd see it on the cell records, right? It wasn't on the cell phone record, was it?

If it wasn't Maura on her cell, what did they see?

 

[Steleheart]

I've been following this case for a year and I still feel like there is so much I don't know. I was rereading the Boston Magazine article from Feb 2014 and something stuck out to me - apologies if this has already been discussed! BBM

From page 2 of the article:


From page 3:


She couldn't have been using her cell after the crash if her last call was while she was picking up alcohol because we'd see it on the cell records, right? It wasn't on the cell phone record, was it?

If it wasn't Maura on her cell, what did they see?

I have been able to turn on my cell phone in the white mountains even if there is no service ( which there usually isn't) using it to try and make a call makes the light come on and could be mistaken for something else by someone watching, IMO.


Using the light from a phone with no service like to try and see things can also bee seen by others.

So are you sure she "couldn't" have been using it?


:cow:

 

[toronto_allie]

I have been able to turn on my cell phone in the white mountains even if there is no service ( which there usually isn't) using it to try and make a call makes the light come on and could be mistaken for something else by someone watching, IMO.


Using the light from a phone with no service like to try and see things can also bee seen by others.

So are you sure she "couldn't" have been using it?


:cow:

Great points! I have definitely used my phone to search in my car/bag/etc. Here's my next question then: Huge touchscreen phones like we have now emit a bunch of light - how much light could a flip phone from 2004 emit?

 

[coolaid213]

Ok, I'm certainly not trying to spread disinformation, but I'm not sure what to believe regarding the rag because I've read several differing accounts. You're right that it's said that Sergeant Smith discovered the rag at the scene. However, when Renner interviewed the mechanic, Mike Lavoie, he said that he noticed the rag when he impounded the car and told her father about it as soon as he spoke to him. Did Fred speak to Lavoie before he spoke to the police? By all accounts Fred avoided speaking to police for a couple of days after the accident. Apparently he wasn't formally interviewed until two full years later. Also, I've seen some accounts saying the rag was firmly stuffed down inside the tailpipe, others say it was loose and hanging out. Some say it was white, most others say it was red. If the rag was stuffed deeply into the pipe, it seems incredible that the officer would think to look inside the tailpipe at the scene. If the rag was lodged in there it would have rendered the car useless, and if the rag was stuffed in loosely and hanging out it would have been blown clear upon starting the engine. But I digress, what seems clear is that Fred immediately downplayed the rag. Any thoughts on the time frame of when Fred spoke to the police about the rag? Was this days after the accident? Weeks? Years?

 

[coolaid213]

Regarding the cell phone... in 2004 most cell phones had a 1" x 2" screen. If it was a flip phone, some of those had a 1" x 1" monochrome LCD screen on the opposite side of the big screen that is illuminated by the same light as larger main screen. Some cell phones from that era had a red LED that would light up for various reasons. Generally because the phone is being charged, or possibly if the phone is in use. If there is new voicemail or the battery is low, sometimes the red LED will blink. I can't imagine the white light from those small screens being confused for the cherry of a lit cigarette. If there was a bright red LED illuminated on the back of the phone, that certainly could be mistaken for a cherry. It's very likely that she tried to use her phone despite being out of range. I also think it's very common for a person in the dark to use a cellphone as a flash light. Back when I had a flip phone I used it as a flashlight many times. The question is, did the phone have a red LED on the back of the flip part? If it didn't and she was using the phone as a flash light, I can't imagine how this could be mistaken for a cigarette even by a woman with terrible eyesight, the light from an illuminated LCD screen is bright white, not dull and red.

 

[toronto_allie]

If there is new voicemail or the battery is low, sometimes the red LED will blink. I can't imagine the white light from those small screens being confused for the cherry of a lit cigarette. If there was a bright red LED illuminated on the back of the phone, that certainly could be mistaken for a cherry.

I forgot about the little red light on some phones back then. I could definitely see her battery being low as she probably didn't have a charger in her car back then - that could be mistaken for a cherry for sure.

I agree that it's hard to imagine a bright LED screen being mistaken for a cigarette though. It would be helpful to know what model of phone she had.

 

[coolaid213]

There are so many details that I wish we had. What was the exact model of phone? How much gas was in the gas tank? What was the exact year and model of the car? (I believe it was a mid 90's Saturn SL) Was the towel jammed in the pipe or merely hanging out? Were all of the alcoholic beverages accounted for in the car? I've seen various accounts, but it's generally agreed she took the Vodka and Kahlua. What was the exact date of the first time the police spoke to Fred Murray. Did Lavoie speak to Fred about the rag before the police did? Maybe Scoops can address some of these. I wish we could nail down all the specifics, because accounts across the web are all over the place.

 

[Sutton]

My feeling is that the money was intended to send Maura to get a quiet abortion out of state to save Fred the embarrassment. Abortion was legal but how she got pregnant is something I will keep to myself for now. I think Maura had a better idea and that was to not have that done and instead go away and raise her child away from him.

Perhaps the upsetting phone call was a VM confirming her actual pregnancy test, the dinner with Kate, Maura and Fred was to break it to Fred, and the "party" was not a party at all but a confrontation between Maura and her friends to convince her to get away fro him which she could not do. Hence her effort, against their advice, to go spend the night with him "to return his car".

There is no evidence for this - or anything- so MOO

Wow. That's quite a theory. I am not dismissing it as a possibility, but abortions do not cost $4,000. They cost $200-400 (depending on method) during that time period. But there would have been traveling and lodging expenses if Maura was going to have the procedure out of town.

Large cities often have several abortion facilities, but there are few or no options in smaller towns. But, who knows? It's always possible.

 

[Caffeine]

There are so many details that I wish we had. What was the exact model of phone? How much gas was in the gas tank? What was the exact year and model of the car? (I believe it was a mid 90's Saturn SL) Was the towel jammed in the pipe or merely hanging out? Were all of the alcoholic beverages accounted for in the car? I've seen various accounts, but it's generally agreed she took the Vodka and Kahlua. What was the exact date of the first time the police spoke to Fred Murray. Did Lavoie speak to Fred about the rag before the police did? Maybe Scoops can address some of these. I wish we could nail down all the specifics, because accounts across the web are all over the place.

As far as the phone, the Murray Family page says it is a Samsung SPH A620-VGA1000. I believe she had Sprint as a carrier. FWIW, I don't see any sort of red LED charging light on the phone itself. But, IMO, I think the cigarette "dot" may just be faulty recollection perhaps for the witness. However, there could be a light near the charging port which looks to be either on the bottom or the right side of the phone...not sure.

I agree about lack of specific information, too. A lot of the information out there is varied, or contradictory and even in some cases presented with a bias to support certain theories. There's probably quite a few things we won't get answers to, unfortunately.

 

[toronto_allie]

Thanks for this info Caffeine! I don't see a red LED light on the phone.

 

[scoops]

There are so many details that I wish we had. What was the exact model of phone? How much gas was in the gas tank? What was the exact year and model of the car? (I believe it was a mid 90's Saturn SL) Was the towel jammed in the pipe or merely hanging out? Were all of the alcoholic beverages accounted for in the car? I've seen various accounts, but it's generally agreed she took the Vodka and Kahlua. What was the exact date of the first time the police spoke to Fred Murray. Did Lavoie speak to Fred about the rag before the police did? Maybe Scoops can address some of these. I wish we could nail down all the specifics, because accounts across the web are all over the place.

Fred made the first contact with police.

He called 911 on Feb 10., relentlessly trying to get a hold of the responding officer Cecil Smith to Maura's wreck, because he had some very important information to pass along to the officer concerning his daughter.

The lead investigator of Maura's disappearance has stated that the first thing out of fred's mouth when he finally got to talk to an officer was that Maura came to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself.

Fred, family and police were talking from the second Fred and family arrived to the accident location.

 

[scoops]

Yes. I guess we don't know what kind of equipment she had - snowshoes, XC skis, backpacking accessories, etc. There has never been any mention of winter gear.

But I have been in the White Mountains in winter and snow shoed and XC skied on just level land mostly around the Sawyer River area. I spent many a winter in the mountains of Vermont as well and snow shoed upward and back again. The work required is only for the fittest people, LOL Not me.
Sometimes, by February, there can be several layers of crust and powder. Walking, even with good boots is treacherous and it isn't very far from the road where you can break through and fall flat on your face.

I find the speculation that she is somewhere in the woods because she wanted to get somewhere up there in February to be highly unlikely - unless she herself drank all of the $40 worth of alcohol and then acted ridiculously out of character for her knowledge of those mountains.

There were no notes mentioning leaving this world, there was no talk of suicide before her disappearance, there were no previous attempts or threats - there was NOTHING typical of a possible suicidal person. She crashed, she was charged, she searched pregnancy/ alcohol. There were school troubles, boyfriend, parenting problems etc. None of that points to suicide IMO. In fact it seems like nothing more than a troubled young life that maturity can correct.

:cow:

After her wreck, I highly doubt writing a note was even on her radar anymore.

As far as the pregnancy angle is concerned, don't forget that one of Maura's classes she had been currently enrolled in was a maternity based class. All UMASS nursing students spend a lot of time researching newborns as it was explained to me

 

[coolaid213]

@Scoops. Thank you for your patience. I'd love to make a spreadsheet with all of the confirmed facts of this case. It seems like there are so many accounts that completely contradict each other. Renner's blog implies that Fred was evasive. It says that he didn't meet with police until two days after the disappearance, and wasn't formally interviewed for another two years. After reading your response and doing some searching, it does appear that Fred Murray called police immediately, yet didn't arrive on the scene for another 48 hours. Lol, I hate to agree with you so much because I'm still not convinced by your suicide hypothesis, but I admire your accuracy and dedication to the facts. In any event, it does seem that Fred pushed the police to investigate this as a suicide for the first 48 hours, and then did a 180 to push the creep theory. I can think of two reasons why he would do this, one is what you've already mentioned... he assumed she went there to commit suicide but was willing to change his story as needed to keep attention on the case... and the other reason, well I'm not allowed to discuss that here.

 

[Steleheart]

After her wreck, I highly doubt writing a note was even on her radar anymore.

As far as the pregnancy angle is concerned, don't forget that one of Maura's classes she had been currently enrolled in was a maternity based class. All UMASS nursing students spend a lot of time researching newborns as it was explained to me

"After" the wreck? Who would do that? It's very clear from my post that I was referring to a history of suicidal behavior .
As for the pregnancy angle, like all the circumspect speculation in this case including yours, yes, nursing students can absolutely be researching alcohol, FAS, pregnancy and etc. I put it together with her father, her friends and her behaviors before she went missing.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Just Like YOU!

:cow:

 

[Steleheart]

Using the pregnancy angle, that Maura searched alcohol and pregnancy as a nursing student and deducing that she may have been pregnant - then disappeared, is not so far off from the fact that she had a book relating to her interests in the perils of the mountains and deducing that she was suicidal - then disappeared.

With not a shred of evidence all theories are valid IMO.

MOO

 

[scoops]

@Scoops. Thank you for your patience. I'd love to make a spreadsheet with all of the confirmed facts of this case. It seems like there are so many accounts that completely contradict each other. Renner's blog implies that Fred was evasive. It says that he didn't meet with police until two days after the disappearance, and wasn't formally interviewed for another two years. After reading your response and doing some searching, it does appear that Fred Murray called police immediately, yet didn't arrive on the scene for another 48 hours. Lol, I hate to agree with you so much because I'm still not convinced by your suicide hypothesis, but I admire your accuracy and dedication to the facts. In any event, it does seem that Fred pushed the police to investigate this as a suicide for the first 48 hours, and then did a 180 to push the creep theory. I can think of two reasons why he would do this, one is what you've already mentioned... he assumed she went there to commit suicide but was willing to change his story as needed to keep attention on the case... and the other reason, well I'm not allowed to discuss that here.

Fred didn't find out about his daughter going missing until late in the evening of Feb 10. this is confirmed. Police weren't really doing a whole lot at this point concerning the investigation, but they had made an attempt to get a hold of Fred and ended up getting in touch with Fred's kids back in Massachusetts.

Fred's kids attempted on their own to find out more information, but they kept getting the run around as they would call a police department in New Hampshire for help only to be directed back to UMASS police since Maura was a student at UMASS.

Fred wasn't anywhere near his home residence and hadn't been for months as he was living out of an extended suites hotel in Connecticut at the time.

Fred drove through the night and arrived to the accident location before dawn on Feb 11.

Family members were doing interviews with police right away once they all got the accident location and set up a "command post" at a nearby motel.

Through accounts of Sharon Rausch among others, police were conducting pretty intense interviews with, family members of the Murrays to include Billy and Kathleen.

The suicide narrative was not the cops, it was introduced to them by Fred Murray, they didn't know Maura from the next person.

Fred very early on (when being interviewed on TV) was making direct pleas to his daughter to please come back, it wasn't too late, they could work out whatever was wrong.

Not long after those initial days of searching for Maura, the family's public stance began to change.

In interviews with the media, the family were blaming the police for trying to force a suicide narrative about Maura, so they wouldn't have to account for a serial killer roaming the streets of their local area.

Trust was snapped all around and yes Family began to be less cooperative with police as I understand it (as far as interviews go).

The rag in the tailpipe was just one of the things that interested police concerning a possible suicide connection. They also honed in on the Tylenol PM and alcohol and the book Not Without Peril.

So the logical chain of events would show IMO, that police confronted Fred at some point about the rag in the tailpipe that they discovered and by that time, IMO, Fred didn't want it to have any link to his original suicide theory he introduced to police, so he quickly explained it away.