NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

[Steleheart]

Great points! I have definitely used my phone to search in my car/bag/etc. Here's my next question then: Huge touchscreen phones like we have now emit a bunch of light - how much light could a flip phone from 2004 emit?

LOL I used my flip phone to see way back when, but I had it set for 30 seconds. In that short time it was useless and frustrating. I now have a slider but I got my daughter a smart phone and she has a flashlight app. She was able to take me through the cellar in a house she was sitting to find the breaker box, haha.

Yeah, back then , not so much, but you do what you gotta?


MOO

 

[scoops]

Using the pregnancy angle, that Maura searched alcohol and pregnancy as a nursing student and deducing that she may have been pregnant - then disappeared, is not so far off from the fact that she had a book relating to her interests in the perils of the mountains and deducing that she was suicidal - then disappeared.

With not a shred of evidence all theories are valid IMO.

MOO

I had come up with a suicide conclusion well before I even did any research into that book.

My suicide conclusion actually likely began with the odd-ball defensive explaining away of certain events that family were doing in the media (packed up dorm room, bringing her school books to keep up with her studies etc..) Those were immediate red flags to me, in fact, before I had even came to any conclusion on what happened to Maura.

The book is just one element.

The fact that Fred did believe his daughter went up to the mountains to do personal harm to herself is just another element but one with a very real ring to it, since this wasn't public information until police began using it to defend themselves.

Then over the years, other things have also come to light that would be in alignment with a suicide theory, things such as the Tylenol PM found, and the fact that Maura only packed enough clothes for 1 to 2 days.

 

[Steleheart]

You're right.

Its all very innocent.

She probably mistakenly packed the book thinking it was one of her school books, because afterall, she was all about keeping up with her studies.

In fact on her way to Canada after being abducted, I think she would've torn pages out of the book and left them behind on the road for her tandem driver partner to see. That was probably the real intention of her having that book to begin with. It was about the white mountains, so it would seem fitting that she leave a trail of pages from the book for her mystery friend in the mystery red truck to see as that friend troughed along through the white mountains looking to hook up with Maura for a party they were secret rendezvousing to out in the forest.

Scoops,

Respectfully, in all of your research, in all of your posts, attention to detail, presentation, writing, intellect and etc., as near as I can tell, all of that is valued and respected by all, IMO.

But when you use this kind of sarcasm because someone has a different theory than yours, it may very well detract from your credibility.

You and I both know there is no evidence of pages from the book being dropped on the road. Maura is not Hansel and Gretel, She is not a fairy tail. She is a real young woman who went missing and unexplained. I know you know that.

Please temper your remarks to include respect for those who differ in their opinions as well as those who may not have the knowledge that you have.

Thanks for all you have put in to this case - it is well appreciated.

MOO

 

[Steleheart]

I had come up with a suicide conclusion well before I even did any research into that book.

My suicide conclusion actually likely began with the odd-ball defensive explaining away of certain events that family were doing in the media (packed up dorm room, bringing her school books to keep up with her studies etc..) Those were immediate red flags to me, in fact, before I had even came to any conclusion on what happened to Maura.

The book is just one element.

The fact that Fred did believe his daughter went up to the mountains to do personal harm to herself is just another element but one with a very real ring to it, since this wasn't public information until police began using it to defend themselves.

Then over the years, other things have also come to light that would be in alignment with a suicide theory, things such as the Tylenol PM found, and the fact that Maura only packed enough clothes for 1 to 2 days.

Honestly I have no idea what Fred actually believed. I know what he SAID he believed and I know that he said contradicting things about his daughter. She went to do harm, she was taken by a local dirt bag. Which is it? Who actually knows what he really thinks? Fred.

I have Tylenol PM. I never tried to kill myself. The evidence is not there IMO.

Packing enough clothes for 1 or 2 days discounts the suicide theory because why would she need 2 days worth of clothes if she were dead? How would she change them?

MOO

 

[coolaid213]

I am very open minded to the suicide idea. It's not like I'm emotionally invested and don't want to admit that she killed herself. I just don't think it's clear that she was definitely suicidal. Her father may have thought she was suicidal, but he could have had other motives for saying that. This case to me is very much like the Brandon Lawson case, in that no one theory completely adds up. As soon as I feel sure that one thing must have happened, I start having doubts and consider another scenario.


I can conceive of 4 different scenarios, or a combination thereof. Suicide/Death by Exposure/Local Dirtbag/Starting a new life... none of those would surprise me. That's what's got me hooked on this case. I feel like it's only a matter of time before someone stumbles on a body, or someone confesses, or someone bumps into her in a Walmart.


Something else that I've been thinking about tonight... why was she so emphatic about not calling the police if she was planning on committing suicide anyway? If she was just going to run off into the forest off the side of the road and die from exposure... why beg the bus driver not to call the cops? Even if they immediately started search and rescue, she'd already be dead by the time anyone could find her. Any thoughts on that one?

 

[peeksneeka]

I am very open minded to the suicide idea. It's not like I'm emotionally invested and don't want to admit that she killed herself. I just don't think it's clear that she was definitely suicidal. Her father may have thought she was suicidal, but he could have had other motives for saying that. This case to me is very much like the Brandon Lawson case, in that no one theory completely adds up. As soon as I feel sure that one thing must have happened, I start having doubts and consider another scenario.


I can conceive of 4 different scenarios, or a combination thereof. Suicide/Death by Exposure/Local Dirtbag/Starting a new life... none of those would surprise me. That's what's got me hooked on this case. I feel like it's only a matter of time before someone stumbles on a body, or someone confesses, or someone bumps into her in a Walmart.


Something else that I've been thinking about tonight... why was she so emphatic about not calling the police if she was planning on committing suicide anyway? If she was just going to run off into the forest off the side of the road and die from exposure... why beg the bus driver not to call the cops? Even if they immediately started search and rescue, she'd already be dead by the time anyone could find her. Any thoughts on that one?

I have struggled with depression for most of my adult life and at one point I did attempt suicide. Speaking from that experience, I wanted time to complete the act. I didn't want to be found mid deed and rescued. Her asking the passer-by not to call police makes absolute sense to me no matter the scenario. She had been drinking and driving. That's reason enough I think.


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[coolaid213]

By the way, if anyone idealized suicide on the mountain it was Fred. I believe in the Disappeared program it is claimed Fred had supposedly told his kids that's how he would commit suicide if he ever had to.


@peeksneeka You have a good point. It still seems strange to me that she would be concerned about anything if suicide was the ultimate plan. At the point she wrecked her car she could have just gotten out and wandered off into the woods immediately. She didn't have to wait around to tell the witnesses she was fine and ask them not to call the police. I can't get away from a feeling that she was still trying to avoid trouble with the police that night. If she was going to kill herself in the next couple of hours, why would she even worry about the police? Why would she lock her doors? I drive the same exact car she was driving, except mine is a 98. They didn't come with power locks back then. She would have to lock each door individually. Why does a person who's committing suicide worry about locking all four doors? Some people have suggested she tried to sop up the spilled wine, I don't think we know that. But if that is true, why would she try to disguise the fact that she had an open container? These seem like the actions of a person worried about the legal ramifications of what they were doing up to that point.

 

[peeksneeka]

Another point to think about is that suicide takes a great deal of energy. Most people have to work up the nerve to attempt it. It's not something people do when they are extremely depressed. It usually happens after someone has contemplated it for a period of time and finally has the energy to follow through. A lot of people who suicide have substances in their system because they may want to die but they don't normally want it to hurt and the last thing they need is more suffering. It's a way to numb themselves. I think going out into a freezing night in the snow would not be a very comfortable way to end one's life at all. Just a thought.


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[wfgodot]

Dickinson wrote (from Amherst of course)

This is the Hour of Lead –
Remembered, if outlived,
As Freezing persons, recollect the Snow –
First – Chill – then Stupor – then the letting go –

The deeply sedate bottomlessness of alcohol provided its comfort of a kind. After the accident the hiker rallied and walked off into the deep night; her suicide meant merely sleeping -- fatigue of distance taking her away from a life at which she'd failed and finally stopping her, never to be discovered, her ending both deeply cold but warm in its certainty. Then Nature, red in tooth and claw, dispersed her remains forever.

 

[scoops]

Another point to think about is that suicide takes a great deal of energy. Most people have to work up the nerve to attempt it. It's not something people do when they are extremely depressed. It usually happens after someone has contemplated it for a period of time and finally has the energy to follow through. A lot of people who suicide have substances in their system because they may want to die but they don't normally want it to hurt and the last thing they need is more suffering. It's a way to numb themselves. I think going out into a freezing night in the snow would not be a very comfortable way to end one's life at all. Just a thought.


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that is precisely what I believe as well.

But in Maura's situation, IMO, she ran out of time.

Police were on their way and if busted, her entire trip plans (whatever they be) were destined to be ruined.

For someone as seemingly intent and focused on following through with whatever her plan was (which had probably been days in the making) Maura was forced to make a snap decision that night as she stood by her wrecked car and knew that the walls were closing in on her plans.

I have never believed Maura wanted to run off into the mountains at night. (afterall, she took out almost 300 dollars).

I believe she had planned all along to stay in lodging that Monday night (likely by a trail she had hiked at before).

She would've had ample time to craft a final note in a hotel room, drinking her favorite drink.

Once daybreak hit, I believe Maura would've finished tying up lose ends like she had been doing prior to leaving.

I believe she would've possibly put a note in her car (near her father's accident forms for him to have) and it would make all the sense in the world for her to be concerned enough with locking the car.

THen I think she would've taken to the hiking trail (IN DAYLIGHT).

I believe she packed a throw blanket (specifically for her final day) I think she would've eventually settled on a spot with a great view and burrowed herself in as best she could and I think she would've taken some Tylenol PM and drank herself to what she would hope would be a peaceful enough death, allthewhile, getting her last looks at life in her favorite location in the world.

 

[nycpizzaparty]

Maybe it wasn't Tylenol PM. As a nursing student, Maura would probably know that an acetaminophen overdose is not a pleasant way to go out. She could have had something else that she took with her and did not leave in the car, which we wouldn't know about.

 

[Caffeine]

Fred initially thought suicide, perhaps due to the previous accident and other parts of her personal life.

Though, as time went on with no body discovered he changed to thinking foul play was involved.

I can't say I blame him, if I was in his shoes that would have been my thought process as well. To be fair, I don't think he has anything to do with this. Maybe knows a bit more than he's willing to share publicly. But otherwise, that's something that certainly is pushed hard, but I'm not really buying it.

I'm willing to understand many plausible scenarios exist, but some narratives are certainly far fetched, IMO.

 

[Steleheart]

Maybe it wasn't Tylenol PM. As a nursing student, Maura would probably know that an acetaminophen overdose is not a pleasant way to go out. She could have had something else that she took with her and did not leave in the car, which we wouldn't know about.

I have seen a lot of opinions regarding the Tylenol PM. Diphenhydramine, (Benadryl, sleep aid, most PM products) would only serve to make one sleepy. In addition to the alcohol and anticipating hypothermia, all of these would hasten the onset of death, but no, Tylenol PM alone would require a bowl full to die. It would be awful and sickly, IMO.
2-4 Benadryl, 1 - 2 pints of liquor, extreme cold and a good book - go night - night.

ETA: I have extreme doubts that she did that. A lot of talk about her going a favorite mountain to die in the snow. Up there it's 3 to 5 feet deep. Not without peril and not without snowshoes.

:cow:

 

[coolaid213]

Regarding Diphenhydramine, if you take enough of it you will pass out... period. You can take enough diphenhydramine to fall asleep standing up. And when you take that much under normal conditions, you can be in a deep sleep for the better part of a day. Don't ask me how I know lol. Some people have paradoxical reactions to it, and it speeds them up, but for most this is not the case. So I do believe if she took enough of those she would pass out in the snow, and there wouldn't be time to feel pains from the acetaminophen.


With that said I think we might be over-romanticizing this suicide theory a bit. It seems like the proponents of the suicide theory are hanging their entire case on the book and the fact that she ran away from school. For all we know the book could be completely irrelevant, and we have no real evidence of what mission she was on that night. What if she had $4,300, and not just $300? There are so many possibilities here that don't involve suicide.

 

[Caffeine]

ETA: I have extreme doubts that she did that. A lot of talk about her going a favorite mountain to die in the snow. Up there it's 3 to 5 feet deep. Not without peril and not without snowshoes.

This is an important point that constantly needs to be reiterated. I know there are plenty New England natives here, but many there are not. Roaming the woods of NH on a February evening is not a walk in the park. First, it was dark. Did she have a flashlight? Fred never made mention of it and that would be a pretty important thing to consider. But without one, once you get deep in the woods at night your visibility is going to be extremely poor. Without a light, she'd essentially be wandering nearly blind through the dark. Certainly one has to consider that a great impediment on any sort of trek into the woods.

Of course, we he have the elements and the terrain, too. Uneven frozen ground, cold, wet and deep snow. Shoe shoes would be great, if we're talking level ground and nice fluffy snow. I would think in that area boots would be a must, with some thick socks. If you ever had the opportunity to trudge through a snowy forest in simply sneakers and cotton socks, it's a terrible plight. You shoes start getting wet, and then your socks and then shortly after your feet are wet, cold and numb. Not pleasant at all.

Was Maura capable of doing this? Probably. Did she have any gear with her to facilitate this? I don't know. But, it seems like a absolutely senseless choice in any context, whether it's to avoid police or end her life. Both of those things could been achieved a lot easier, IMO. Especially, if she was simply fleeing police. I would have to wonder, in that scenario, why not simply go 500 feet in the woods and hide behind a tree? Police aren't theoretically going to launch a full scale manhunt over a missing driver at that point.

Speaking solely on the premise of evading a DUI, the only reason I could justify her going into the woods like that would be to 1) not be seen by cops 2) attempt to get a signal on her cell and make a call. But even so, that would surely go against better judgement knowing you can hardly see, you are freezing, you can't get a signal and your battery is draining fast.

 

[wfgodot]

The only romanticizing here is believing she escaped alive, unseen, and dwells alive somewhere still.

There's nothing romantic in believing that she suicided following a life's path of diminishing returns.

 

[fasteddy8170]

Some things occurred to me while listening to the latest Maura Murray podcast:

Regarding Renner's sociopath comment, we have to remember a major fact: It seems in those last days before Maura disappeared, she appeared to be lying to EVERYONE. To her employer about the phone call. To the school about a family member dying. And then the ultimate kicker: She even lied to the bus driver when he tried to help her that night, telling him she called AAA when actually she didn't. Lying and misleading people was a common behavior of hers. THAT is the absolute definition of sociopath--so I support Renner's assertion. And none of this even mentions using a person's credit card and the theft she committed as a cadet.

But, there's something else regarding the lying. If she lied to all those people I mentioned, then it is ABSOLUTELY probable that she lied to her family--mainly her father--in the days leading up to her disappearance. I mean, do we really believe she was lying to everyone else in her life, but was honest with her dad? That seems like a stretch.

Could it be she lied to father about something happening, and that's the reason he got all that money? Then, once he gave her that money, she disappeared. Meaning: Her father was getting her "get away" money without even realizing it. Given Maura's tendencies, that is easy to believe--she manipulated every person she knew, seemingly.

The whole thing about Maura's disappearance is, knowing her the way we've all come to know her, it's within her behavior to stage a car wreck as a way to make it look like an accident. Then, make it appear as if somebody abducted her afterwards. Sure, the temperature was 12 degrees. But we don't know what clothes she had in the car. She could've used her dad's money to buy survival gear--we'd never know because she would've used cash. Maura could've faked being drunk when the bus driver came upon her. Then, once he left, she puts on the heavy clothes and takes off into the woods.

It could be we've all looked at what Maura did in those days before she disappeared a bit too naively. We've been taking Maura "at her word" regarding her behavior. Maybe it was part of an elaborate scheme by a person who seemed to have scheming down pretty well. Why take the call to that resort so seriously and honestly when we all know she was lying to everyone in her life? Doesn't it make more sense to doubt the sincerity of that call given what else Maura was saying to people in her life? I think it does.

And it could be, listening to Fred's letters, that, at first, Fred thought it was an abduction. But maybe, after he had a chance to assess everything in the case--because he's probably found out a lot about his daughter that he didn't know, just like we all have, he could've had a light bulb go off in his head one night, sat up in bed and said, "Holy crap, that money I gave her was for her to disappear. She fooled me like she did everybody else in her life." And that would definitely explain his unwillingness to grant any interviews because he feels like a fool.

 

[scoops]

Regarding Diphenhydramine, if you take enough of it you will pass out... period. You can take enough diphenhydramine to fall asleep standing up. And when you take that much under normal conditions, you can be in a deep sleep for the better part of a day. Don't ask me how I know lol. Some people have paradoxical reactions to it, and it speeds them up, but for most this is not the case. So I do believe if she took enough of those she would pass out in the snow, and there wouldn't be time to feel pains from the acetaminophen.


With that said I think we might be over-romanticizing this suicide theory a bit. It seems like the proponents of the suicide theory are hanging their entire case on the book and the fact that she ran away from school. For all we know the book could be completely irrelevant, and we have no real evidence of what mission she was on that night. What if she had $4,300, and not just $300? There are so many possibilities here that don't involve suicide.

Hanging an entire case of suicide on a book?

<modsnip>

And what actual evidence are people using to place Maura in Canada living a clandestine life.

what actual evidence is there of a killer snatching Maura away from the scene of an accident.

What actual evidence is there that Maura is a sociopath? Now we are all clinical psychologists all of a sudden.

This board is getting silly

 

[peeksneeka]

I think Maura was extremely troubled and her actions are the evidence of this. Yes, she has lied, but what we don't know is her motivation for lying. Most people behave in such a way out of fear. Actually, people will do a lot of horrible things because they are afraid. I think it's really a stretch to assume she is a sociopath. No, I'm not a clinical psychologist, but I do happen to have a degree in psychology and a good six years of work in mental health.

I am not convinced that Maura committed suicide. I think it's more possible that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Still, I think she was capable of harming herself. I think it's definitely possible. I just don't agree that it is the way she would choose to do it...even out of desperation.


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[coolaid213]

Maybe I'm in the wrong place Scoops, I thought this was a place for amateur sleuthing? Not a place where you call people ignorant if they don't agree 100% with your theory. I am probably the most open minded of anyone here. As I said, there are 4 main explanations for what happened that night, and I could believe any one of them. I think that from the point she wrecked her car we have no way of knowing what she did, or what she was thinking from that point forward. She could have committed suicide, she could have died accidentally, she could have been picked off by someone, or she could have made a successful getaway. Exploring a theory other than the one you're dead set on isn't "silly", that's how you get answers. You haven't solved this case yet, so why can't I ask questions?