NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

[wfgodot]

The loneliness includes me unawares.

 

[Steleheart]

I doubt that Frost was sitting in a sleigh in a snow storm in the dark writing about the woods.

Try not to take art so literally.

His poem "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening" was about a man facing his mortality - about people left to see and about things left undone. About how there will always be things left undone - miles to go before I sleep, AND miles to go before I sleep. Twice, because there are always so many things still to do. But I have promises to keep. To people, to God, or whomever.

"He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake."

His horse represents those who love and will miss him, but no, there's no mistake, this man (whomever he may be), knows it is his time. So happy is his peaceful end to go with an easy wind and downy flake, with someone who understands. How could he be alone while with someone who was paying attention?

But again, Frost was not alone in the woods dying when it was written. It wasn't about that.


MOO

 

[Caffeine]

At least 2 NH LE officials have alluded to searches showing no signs she went in the woods.

 

[wfgodot]

I doubt that Frost was sitting in a sleigh in a snow storm in the dark writing about the woods.

Try not to take art so literally.

His poem "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening" was about a man facing his mortality - about people left to see and about things left undone. About how there will always be things left undone - miles to go before I sleep, AND miles to go before I sleep. Twice, because there are always so many things still to do. But I have promises to keep. To people, to God, or whomever.

"He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake."

His horse represents those who love and will miss him, but no, there's no mistake, this man (whomever he may be), knows it is his time. So happy is his peaceful end to go with an easy wind and downy flake, with someone who understands. How could he be alone while with someone who was paying attention?

But again, Frost was not alone in the woods dying when it was written. It wasn't about that.


MOO

Um, yeah. I taught the poem for 20 years.

Perhaps "Stopping" was his Great Dismal Swamp experience reworked and tidied.

 

[Fireweed]

At least 2 NH LE officials have alluded to searches showing no signs she went in the woods.

I think this is decent evidence though certainly not proof that Maura never went in the woods. I am very hesitant to conclude -- ala James Renner -- that absence of evidence that Maura wound up in the woods is proof that she is not there. There are just so many missing persons cases where a body was found either within the search area or just outside of it (years after the official searches were called off).

 

[Steleheart]

Um, yeah. I taught the poem for 20 years.

Perhaps "Stopping" was his Great Dismal Swamp experience reworked and tidied.

There is absolutely no evidence that Frost intended to lie down and die in the swamp. Is there any evidence that Maura was suffering from unrequited love? In fact Frost married White upon her return to Massachusetts.

There is no argument that the poem possibly relates to an end, but it's subjective. That's what opinion is.

I invited people to see a different take on what the poem means, but "alas" I usually put some thought into my posts, unlike those drive-by one liners.

Here is a presentation with several different perspectives on the poem "Stopping by woods", for anyone unopposed to thinking;
http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/poets/a_f/frost/woods.htm

"In 1962 at the Ford Forum in Boston--he told his audience that the thing which had given him most pleasure in composing the poem was the effortless sound of that couplet about the horse and what it does when stopped by the woods: "He gives his harness bells a shake / To ask if there is some mistake." We might guess that he held these lines up for admiration because they are probably the hardest ones in the poem out of which to make anything significant: regular in their iambic rhythm and suggesting nothing more than they assert, they establish a sound against which the "other sound" of the following lines can, by contrast, make itself heard. Frost's fondness for this couplet suggests that however much he cared about the "larger" issues or questions which "Stopping By Woods . . ." raises and provokes, he wanted to direct his readers away from solemnly debating them; instead he invited them simply to be pleased with how he had put it. He was to say later on about Edwin Arlington Robinson something which could more naturally have been said about himself--that his life as a poet was "a revel in the felicities of language." "Stopping By Woods . . ." can be appreciated only by removing it from its pedestal and noting how it is a miniature revel in such felicities."

IMO one can't make a point in a single line. It's not as if those brief drive-bys are as artful or thought provoking as a Haiku.


MOO

 

[Steleheart]

SO by way of an opposing viewpoint - To eschew obfuscation and espouse elucidation;


"Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference."

An insight just as valid which opposes dying in the snow.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173536


MOO

 

[cascade]

I, for one, highly appreciate Scoops clearheaded contributions to this discussion.

 

[Steleheart]

There are a lot of grown men who run the blogs, books, documentaries, podcasts, secret research, etc when it comes to this case. I just want one of them to go up to Haverhill on a night like the one when Maura went missing (going up there in July to gauge the conditions won't count) and then I want them to walk straight into the woods all by themselves without a flashlight or any clue where they are going. Here is the thing: even for a grown man that will be scary. I know, I know, they are going to argue that Maura was suicidal blah, blah, blah but I must seriously question if even suicidal people do not still have a great many of their human instincts intact. I would bet my life that the vast majority of suicides by far occur either in daylight or indoors with the lights on.

I once went camping by myself in the woods and it was really, really scary and I am never doing it again. During the day it was a lot of fun, but at night you realize just how alone you are. Human beings have a deep instinct to not be alone in "dangerous" places.

I get your gender views and I appreciate that. I took a solo camping trip as a retreat on the Kanc just after Hurricane Irene in August 2011, Most roads were closed and my campground was devoid of people. This was about the darkness, the solitude and etc. I would gladly do it again. Yeah it was scary given the signs announcing bear activity, LOL. But it would not have been my first close encounter.
I have been up there in December, April and May but only snow shoeing or XC skiing or at the time-share then driving up through the pass. Often wondering, deeply pondering

I once took a separate retreat in my tree house in February. The temp those nights were in the 20's. I believe I would have perished without my kerosene heater.

I drove through Haverhill at night in February. I go that way to go to the "Brick Store" or on to Woodsville for dinner. I would not want to stop my car and climb, trudge, or stumble into those woods. As with every area in the White mountains, even if you don't get a stick poked into your cornea, the snow just gets deeper and deeper and deeper and harder and harder to trudge through.

IMO Maura Murray was smarter than that even if she were plastered.

I think the male thing needs to be taken in context, but it seems that by calling it out may suggest that a woman may be more scared and emotional. That is not my experience with athletic, fit and experienced women.

I may have mentioned that my niece is currently scaling, and recording the 4000's and 5000's up there. Solo. My respect for that woman is enormous. She is just over 30. Just this weekend she did Mt Willey and Mt Field. I dunno even where they are, LOL

She would be carrying me back haha.


MOO

 

[Fireweed]

I get your gender views and I appreciate that. I took a solo camping trip as a retreat on the Kanc just after Hurricane Irene in August 2011, Most roads were closed and my campground was devoid of people. This was about the darkness, the solitude and etc. I would gladly do it again. Yeah it was scary given the signs announcing bear activity, LOL. But it would not have been my first close encounter.
I have been up there in December, April and May but only snow shoeing or XC skiing or at the time-share then driving up through the pass. Often wondering, deeply pondering

I once took a separate retreat in my tree house in February. The temp those nights were in the 20's. I believe I would have perished without my kerosene heater.

I drove through Haverhill at night in February. I go that way to go to the "Brick Store" or on to Woodsville for dinner. I would not want to stop my car and climb, trudge, or stumble into those woods. As with every area in the White mountains, even if you don't get a stick poked into your cornea, the snow just gets deeper and deeper and deeper and harder and harder to trudge through.

IMO Maura Murray was smarter than that even if she were plastered.

I think the male thing needs to be taken in context, but it seems that by calling it out may suggest that a woman may be more scared and emotional. That is not my experience with athletic, fit and experienced women.

I may have mentioned that my niece is currently scaling, and recording the 4000's and 5000's up there. Solo. My respect for that woman is enormous. She is just over 30. Just this weekend she did Mt Willey and Mt Field. I dunno even where they are, LOL

She would be carrying me back haha.


MOO

I do not think that women are necessarily more scared or weaker than men. What I meant is that the people publicly running all this are grown men. I want them to go out in those woods on a February night and see how they really feel. I am sure that all of them are convinced that they are not craven and that they would easily handle it. I just want them to see what it is really like. I think that women in general would be more cautious before proceeding. We would not necessarily feel entirely confident whereas plenty of men would (falsely).

Whether Maura was male or female, I do not think that as an experienced white mountains hiker that she would just walk straight off into the woods. If she wasn't suicidal she would know how dangerous it was; if she was suicidal she would know that there was a very real possibility of survival.

 

[Caffeine]

The sheer darkness of the a area is enough for me to question the idea of venturing into the woods. There was a news clip a year after the disappearance, same day, same time, same location. It was pitch black.

It just seems like a senseless choice, in any state of mind. Like going downstairs to a completely black, unlit basement to fetch an item that you could find in your brightly illuminated kitchen.

 

[lawstudent]

My feeling is that this will end simply - she will be found in the woods some day. I think the hiding from cops and falling asleep or passing out is most likely. Passing out somewhere not easily visible. Maybe falling and being unable to get up. She didn't have to be suicidal - just drunk, panicked, desperate, in a bad mental state, adrenaline and possible head injury - she wouldn't have had to go far and she would've known it was dangerous to keep going. But maybe in the cold she just waited too long and then didn't know what to do once they'd left - too confused. That's what keeps coming to my mind. But of course other possibilities remain open to me.

 

[Steleheart]

I do not think that women are necessarily more scared or weaker than men. What I meant is that the people publicly running all this are grown men. I want them to go out in those woods on a February night and see how they really feel. I am sure that all of them are convinced that they are not craven and that they would easily handle it. I just want them to see what it is really like. I think that women in general would be more cautious before proceeding. We would not necessarily feel entirely confident whereas plenty of men would (falsely).

Whether Maura was male or female, I do not think that as an experienced white mountains hiker that she would just walk straight off into the woods. If she wasn't suicidal she would know how dangerous it was; if she was suicidal she would know that there was a very real possibility of survival.

BBM:
~ Ah, there's the rub!

 

[Fireweed]

My feeling is that this will end simply - she will be found in the woods some day. I think the hiding from cops and falling asleep or passing out is most likely. Passing out somewhere not easily visible. Maybe falling and being unable to get up. She didn't have to be suicidal - just drunk, panicked, desperate, in a bad mental state, adrenaline and possible head injury - she wouldn't have had to go far and she would've known it was dangerous to keep going. But maybe in the cold she just waited too long and then didn't know what to do once they'd left - too confused. That's what keeps coming to my mind. But of course other possibilities remain open to me.

I've long thought that if Maura perished that night, then this is likely what happened. She fled the scene because she was drunk and as her past would show, Maura must have been terrified about getting into trouble again. Let's say she jogged a ways up the road and when she was out of sight of homes, she hid behind a tree. Did she decide to stay there for a few hours until she thought that the cops would not be looking for her? Maybe she decided to head back to town at midnight and as you say got up and fell, or perhaps she was hit by a drunk driver who hid her body so as to cover up his crime.

 

[lawstudent]

I've long thought that if Maura perished that night, then this is likely what happened. She fled the scene because she was drunk and as her past would show, Maura must have been terrified about getting into trouble again. Let's say she jogged a ways up the road and when she was out of sight of homes, she hid behind a tree. Did she decide to stay there for a few hours until she thought that the cops would not be looking for her? Maybe she decided to head back to town at midnight and as you say got up and fell, or perhaps she was hit by a drunk driver who hid her body so as to cover up his crime.

I think if a drunk driver hit her, she would have been found. It is hard to move a body and there would probably be blood. Someone moving of their own volition with adrenaline and fear pumping would have an easier time putting some distance between him/her and the crash and maneuvering into a strange spot. I can see it happening even if she only planned on waiting until the cops drove away and the car was towed - could have been planning on less than an hour, or perhaps just hiding to assess the situation with the intent of possibly coming out once she had calmed down and come up with a story etc. But given the conditions, both internal and external, even a very short time could have led to disorientation etc.

 

[BillNH]

Thanks for clarifying.

The thing that I don't get is if a person calls Maura while in the area of Londonderry...that persons cell pings that tower. So if that person called, didn't get through.... wouldn't it register as a missed call and in turn be on Mauras cell phone bill?

Or is it an issue where Maura had no service and simply had no idea she missed the call. If That's the case I wonder how police became aware of it?

Only a live connected call makes it on the phone bill. It may have registered as a missed call on her phone but if her phone was off, it would not. If her phone was off and they left a message it would have been in her messages, and she would be notified of a new VM, but it would not show up on the phone bill.

 

[BillNH]

The only reason I ever weighed in on this issue to begin with, was because the finding of this affidavit request has been reported (unintentionally IMO) as some big bombshell piece of evidence to this case (and imo, it is not).

I wanted to make very clear that if were going to use some random police standard procedure form to try and read into it some big clue, we better understand the context of it first, which IMO, the context of that affidavit request has never been established by any sleuther or investigator.

We are trying to say that police are trying to locate a person that may have called Maura that afternoon, and that doesn't jibe to me at all as being common sense.

Every case I have ever heard about in which law enforcement is using someone's cell phone to gather information involving pings and cell towers, it is strictly to trace movements by using the phone's built it tracking ability because the phone communicates through pings with cell phone towers.

Whether police are looking for a missing person or looking for the movements of a particular suspect, they are interested in that subject's cell phone to follow that person's movements.

Back in 2004, as along as Maura had her cell phone turned on, it would've left a trace to whatever tower she was driving by.

This idea that police are interested in calls coming into a missing person's phone, doesn't make a lot of sense, unless they were specifically anticipating someone to call Maura at a certain time and maybe then, they would seek help in trying to secure whether or not that phone call was ever made.

But if police were to assume someone called Maura and it just didn't register on her phone bill because she never answered and voice mail didn't pick it up ... that seems like very backwards and guestimating type investigating. How can you be interested in calls (as an investigator) you don't even know someone received.

I still contend that Maura checked her phone for messages in the late afternoon she went missing (on her drive up to New Hampshire). that is what has been reported as being her last known activity.

If she took I-91 North to get to the White Mountains, she would've been in the vincinity of Londonderry Vermont at the time she dialed in to check her phone for messages.

IIRC, Trooper Landry was talking to Maura's cell carrier about tracking the phone via "ping" when the security person he was talking to mentioned that someone attempted to call her the day she disappeared. The callers phone went through the Londonderry, NH tower. They could not give Landry the persons name without a warrant, which is the reason for the affidavit. I don't think there was an error on the affidavit, but I do believe the call was irrelevant to her disappearance. If there was a POI that came of it it seems we may have heard about it, but maybe not. Since it didn't lead to an arrest it probably was insignificant or didnt lead anywhere.

 

[scoops]

IIRC, Trooper Landry was talking to Maura's cell carrier about tracking the phone via "ping" when the security person he was talking to mentioned that someone attempted to call her the day she disappeared. The callers phone went through the Londonderry, NH tower. They could not give Landry the persons name without a warrant, which is the reason for the affidavit. I don't think there was an error on the affidavit, but I do believe the call was irrelevant to her disappearance. If there was a POI that came of it it seems we may have heard about it, but maybe not. Since it didn't lead to an arrest it probably was insignificant or didnt lead anywhere.

That could be correct, but that doesn't pass the smell test as far as I am concerned.

Maura is the person that went missing, Maura's cell phone (and where it pings) is what investigators are going to be interested in.

It is known that Maura turned her phone on briefly the afternoon she went missing (when she checked for messages) at that very second, her cell phone should've sent off a ping to some tower.

I would think police would be very interested in that piece of information.

If Maura had her phone on her entire trip, then the public (IMO) would already be informed by now of her complete movements.

Onto other topics:


So much lately being discussed is just plain wrong (especially this latest podcast).

They paint Maura's mother as someone who didn't have anything to do with finding her daughter, yet there was an article that came out (2 page article) specifically dealing with her and her frustration about the investigation and how she was attempting to arrange to have two co-workers drive her to the accident site so she could work on the case herself.

Also about the dorm party:

Both Sara Alfieri and Kate Markopoulos have talked to the media in the days/weeks after Maura went missing. Neither gal has been silent about that get-together.

They are both being portrayed as some suspicious characters who are holding back information and that doesn't match up with reality.

At no point (other than apparently with James Renner) does this Saturday night party ever be described as some wall-to-wall standing room party.

In every account I have seen, the party has been described as a couple of friends hanging out in Sara's dorm room.

Sara was passed out hours before Maura even left the get-together and Kate likely doesn't recall names because THESE WEREN'T HER FRIENDS, the get-together was at Sara's dorm, Maura's work associate.

Kate was Maura's friend through track and sports and IMO, was just tagging along that night.

 

[scoops]

Maura Murray's mother Lauri in her own words:

Patriot Ledger, The (Quincy, MA)
February 21, 2004

“I want to talk to the last one to see her” - Laurie Murray

By Joe McGee
HANSON – The mother of missing college student Maura Murray of Hanson was planning to travel to New Hampshire this weekend to question witnesses in Haverhill, where her daughter disappeared Feb. 9.

“I want to talk to people on my own, face to face. It’s my mother’s intuition,” Lauri Murray said Friday.

Authorities Friday expanded their search into western Vermont after learning Maura looked up directions to the Burlington area before disappearing.

Though police said they are not sure where the Vermont lead may take them, they are exploring all avenues in what has become a stagnant investigation. Police were unaware of anyone Maura knew in Vermont.

Vermont State Police and Burlington police were canvassing motels in Burlington, South Burlington, Colchester and Shelburne, hoping to find clues.

Murray was last seen on Wild Ammonoosuc Road on Route 112 in Haverhill, where she crashed her car into a snowbank.

It was thought she may have wandered into nearby woods, but search and rescue efforts were officially called off Friday.

New Hampshire State Police Lt. John Scarinza said police now believe Murray got a ride from the accident scene. There was no evidence, however, to suggest there was a struggle.

“From that point on, it’s destination unknown,” Scarinza said.

Nobody is able to determine why Murray, a junior at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, was in New Hampshire.

She left campus with some money and had sent an email saying she would be away to take care of unspecified family business.

Police said they found evidence that Murray was drinking inside her car. A witness said she appeared drunk refused help and left the scene on her own.

But none of those clues make sense to those who know Murray. They said she is an overachieving student and athlete and had no personal problems to the best of anyone’s knowledge.

Lauri Murray has not left her home since Feb 9. She said her emotions have changed from feeling sad and depressed, to the point she is angry and wants to investigate her daughter’s disappearance on her own.

“I want to talk to the last one to see her. All the information we got was that she was walking up that road and just disappeared. Nobody just disappears like that and as far as being picked up or that she ran away … I’m getting angry. She would not do this and she would’ve contacted someone. We’re pushing 10 days now and somebody knows something,” Lauri Murray said.

Lauri Murray said Pat Wilson and Lee Meehan, two of her co-workers at Samuel Marcus Nursing & Retirement Home in Weymouth are arranging to take time off to drive her to New Hampshire. Murray is recovering from a broken ankle.

Lauri Murray’s daughter Julie, an Army officer at Fort Bragg in North Carolina, is taking emergency leave and is expected to arrive Sunday to help in the search.

Leave is up for Maura Murray’s boyfriend Army Lt. Bill Rausch of Oklahoma, who is heading back to his military post. Maura Murray’s father Frederick and her brothers and sisters are still handing out fliers in Vermont and New Hampshire.

Lauri Murray said she plans on doing all she can to help find her daughter.

“I can’t sit here and just be in the dark. I know everybody is doing the best they can, but I need to be up there,” she said.

 

[Caffeine]

I watched an episode of Disappeared last night that reminded me a bit of Maura. It was the Michelle Mcmullen episode. She was a young lady driving from her college in Louisiana to her parents house in Pennsylvania. She never made it back to LA and her car was found in some secluded industrial area in Maryland.

No one had any idea what happened. She was simply gone.

Eventually it was found out she was facing theft charges. A family friend coincidentally spotted her in W. Virginia some time later.

Sure enough she was found about 3 years later, having been on the run, assuming different identities and traveling across the country, starting virtually from scratch.

In the end, it surely didn't portray living on the run as an easy plight.