NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[BillNH]

I think the crucial point that a lot of people are missing here is that there is a huge difference between suggesting a conspiracy and simply asking tough questions. And in this case, tough questions need to be asked because there have been some major flaws within the police investigation. People need to be able to ask tough questions and wonder about certain things without being labeled conspiracy nuts.

Please expand on "Major flaws"? I know of some flaws, but none that are so pivotal that we would have closed this thread in 2004.

 

[BillNH]

I am new to this case, therefore also new to this site. I have listened to the podcasts and done a lot of reading and feel I'm "up to speed" if you will. There are many things about this case that don't make sense. A witness said she heard a vehicle accelerate, then heard the crash. When a small 8 year old sedan, driven on 3 cylinders accelerates, is anyone going to hear that a few hundred yards away, inside a house? I'm guessing no. Thoughts?

It was literally 50 feet away from the witnesses house, not a few hundred yards. So yeah, if they didnt have a TV or radio blasting they definitely would have heard it. Its quiet out there at night.

 

[Caffeine]

While there really is nothing conclusive to point in any direction here (though many argue their theory well) I still cannot fully believe that Maura has much of a chance of being alive.

Being gone for over a decade means something substantial happened here, including possible death. When you start looking at other cases of people inexplicably disappearing for a long time frame, are they generally found alive or dead?

Sure, one can argue without a corpse that could mean a chance of the person still being alive, but then when you look at the staggering murder rates in the USA...and for me, it's hard to say it's anywhere close to a 50/50 chance of survival. I mean, we hear of murders every day. People being found after years of living under an alias is not impossible, but no where near as common.

So where does that leave us? Can we safely say victims of foul play and those living under an alias are in the same ball park of probability?

I'll always admit there's a chance for anything here, but realistically I don't think Maura is among the living anymore.

 

[armywife210]

There are a few family clips from Maura where you see her talking and laughing with Bill, they were shown in the Disappeared episode. Other than that, I don't recall any other footage of Maura that was made public. I'm curious, what exactly is Fred's accent? I'm not familiar with all the accents within the US.

It's a New England accent. My brother lived near Boston for many years. He never picked it up but when we would go to visit I'd hear it everywhere


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[BillNH]

While there really is nothing conclusive to point in any direction here (though many argue their theory well) I still cannot fully believe that Maura has much of a chance of being alive.

Being gone for over a decade means something substantial happened here, including possible death. When you start looking at other cases of people inexplicably disappearing for a long time frame, are they generally found alive or dead?

Sure, one can argue without a corpse that could mean a chance of the person still being alive, but then when you look at the staggering murder rates in the USA...and for me, it's hard to say it's anywhere close to a 50/50 chance of survival. I mean, we hear of murders every day. People being found after years of living under an alias is not impossible, but no where near as common.

So where does that leave us? Can we safely say victims of foul play and those living under an alias are in the same ball park of probability?

I'll always admit there's a chance for anything here, but realistically I don't think Maura is among the living anymore.

Based on stats and probabilities id say you are more correct, but based on what we know about MM, its even odds. There is nothing known that points to one having an advantage over the other. We can make known things fit our narrative of choice but its still not evidence, its opinion and conjecture.

 

[Ricochet]

While there really is nothing conclusive to point in any direction here (though many argue their theory well) I still cannot fully believe that Maura has much of a chance of being alive.

Being gone for over a decade means something substantial happened here, including possible death. When you start looking at other cases of people inexplicably disappearing for a long time frame, are they generally found alive or dead?

I was watching some FBI show on netflix and the officer was discussing the rule of thirds when it comes to missing people, 1/3 found alive, 1/3 found dead, 1/3 never found.

 

[Caffeine]

Based on stats and probabilities id say you are more correct, but based on what we know about MM, its even odds. There is nothing known that points to one having an advantage over the other. We can make known things fit our narrative of choice but its still not evidence, its opinion and conjecture.

Had there been some correspondence with others indicating a planned trip...calls, emails, messages of any sort I would more inclined to think she perhaps skipped town and maybe ran away to start a new life, taken an extended vacation etc.

Regardless of where she was going, or to what extent she planned, I think the crash changed that all and a new series of events were set forth.

I don't think it's likely she just carried on like nothing happened. She was probably going to face some problems after the crash, to what extent she was drinking, I don't know but based on the alcohol in the car there would likely be some questions asked by police.

Whatever her plan was, the accident was not a part of it and I don't think our answer is as simple as a tandem friend picking her up and her going about her business.

With this one, many scenarios do exist and I consider many plausible, but in the end none that make sense to me leave much possibility of her being alive.

 

[Max17]

I totally agree and I am glad someone on here finally decided to say so. There have been many similar cases all over the country of someone having a minor accident and disappearing without any sign of struggle or distress at the scene and in most cases, police treated it exactly the same way as they did in Haverhill. If they treated it differently it was because they found reason to. That reason was missing in this case and I believe the Haverhill PD did what the scene and situation dictated.

Me three. I agree with Ricochet & BillNH. I listen semi-regularly to the area scanners and this stuff happens occasionally during winter. The only difference is what I have noticed, is that the PD/dispatch are quicker to try to contact a family member/relative of an owner that ditched a vehicle, often within the hour. This has probably to do with better IT systems these days. LE usually do a quick search of the surroundings like in Maura's case, but not always.

(A couple of weeks ago on Grafton County scanner fraffic a "young woman" got her car stuck in a snow bank. This young woman left on foot, walked home alone about 1 mile because there was no cell service. Her dad was then supposed get the car. I don't who called dispatch but LE weren't to impressed with this, I guess they wanted at least write an accident report before dad towed the car away.)

 

[TessDeco]

I hope it's Ok to post this link here. Fred Murray has written a letter to the public which has been posted on John Smith's blog. Fred is beginning to stand up for himself and for Maura. Good on him.

https://truthseekersinvestigationss...6-for-both-of-us/comment-page-1/#comment-2738

 

[bighairdontcare]

Had there been some correspondence with others indicating a planned trip...calls, emails, messages of any sort I would more inclined to think she perhaps skipped town and maybe ran away to start a new life, taken an extended vacation etc.

Regardless of where she was going, or to what extent she planned, I think the crash changed that all and a new series of events were set forth.

I don't think it's likely she just carried on like nothing happened. She was probably going to face some problems after the crash, to what extent she was drinking, I don't know but based on the alcohol in the car there would likely be some questions asked by police.

Whatever her plan was, the accident was not a part of it and I don't think our answer is as simple as a tandem friend picking her up and her going about her business.

With this one, many scenarios do exist and I consider many plausible, but in the end none that make sense to me leave much possibility of her being alive.

I am new to this thread, but not new to the case. I have done my own research, listened to the pod casts and whatnot.
I agree, I do not think the accident was planned. However, regardless of the issues she had at the time, I do not think she disappeared to off herself. Reason being, her remains have never been found. How far could she have wandered in those temperatures? Probably not THAT far. How big of a perimeter was searched of the area of the accident? To me, it just seems as though if she were going to walk off somewhere to commit suicide, it wouldn't be in a place so hidden and far off from the site. It was night time and when it is dark, even the most familiar places seem foreign or unknown.
I believe she accepted a ride from someone....
Although people may say that Maura is not the type of person to accept rides from strangers, it is possible under the circumstances that evening. I know that I have made plenty of stupid decisions when I was in college (walking home from bars alone, giving rides to strangers, accepting rides from strangers, letting people in my apt that I did not know, etc- these are all things that I have NEVER once shared with family/friends).
Just chiming in with some thoughts! This case continues to puzzle me.

 

[Lolacat]

I am new to this thread, but not new to the case. I have done my own research, listened to the pod casts and whatnot.
I agree, I do not think the accident was planned. However, regardless of the issues she had at the time, I do not think she disappeared to off herself. Reason being, her remains have never been found. How far could she have wandered in those temperatures? Probably not THAT far. How big of a perimeter was searched of the area of the accident? To me, it just seems as though if she were going to walk off somewhere to commit suicide, it wouldn't be in a place so hidden and far off from the site. It was night time and when it is dark, even the most familiar places seem foreign or unknown.
I believe she accepted a ride from someone....
Although people may say that Maura is not the type of person to accept rides from strangers, it is possible under the circumstances that evening. I know that I have made plenty of stupid decisions when I was in college (walking home from bars alone, giving rides to strangers, accepting rides from strangers, letting people in my apt that I did not know, etc- these are all things that I have NEVER once shared with family/friends).
Just chiming in with some thoughts! This case continues to puzzle me.

Welcome
I dont think the lack of finding a body necessarily means it isnt there. That is a vast area, Maura was a runner, we dont know how far she travelled that night, and I dont know how extensively the area was searched. Not to mention, there have been more than a few cases where no body has been found until years later when it has been discovered within a very small radius of the person's last known movements.
I completely agree with your last statement. I did all kinds of risky, stupid things when i was at college and when I look back, it makes me cringe how unsafe and vulnerable I must have been. I walked home alone and accepted lifts from people I barely knew after being out clubbing MANY times even though most people considered me a fairly *sensible* person in general. Yep- I never told my family or friends about these instances either, for fear of judgement.
Also, love your user name!

 

[Caffeine]

I think the events of that night may have led to some poor decisions. I mean, the fact that she was driving that car (while likely drinking) in the first place is not sensible. So one could conclude more senseless choices could have followed, like hitching a ride with anyone willing to stop and take her away from the accident scene.

However, the usual mantra is Maura voluntarily disappeared and the notion of a stranger giving her a ride is next to impossible.

However my issue with that is we are dismissing the idea of a stranger approaching her because the window of opportunity is too small. They would have to arrive after Atwood stopped watching, after the Westmans stopped watching but arrived before police did.

Yet, it's assumed that in that small window, a tandem driver finds Maura by sheer luck (no cell reception) and picks her up and takes her away under those same impossible circumstances.

I don't get it.

 

[armywife210]

I think the events of that night may have led to some poor decisions. I mean, the fact that she was driving that car (while likely drinking) in the first place is not sensible. So one could conclude more senseless choices could have followed, like hitching a ride with anyone willing to stop and take her away from the accident scene.

However, the usual mantra is Maura voluntarily disappeared and the notion of a stranger giving her a ride is next to impossible.

However my issue with that is we are dismissing the idea of a stranger approaching her because the window of opportunity is too small. They would have to arrive after Atwood stopped watching, after the Westmans stopped watching but arrived before police did.

Yet, it's assumed that in that small window, a tandem driver finds Maura by sheer luck (no cell reception) and picks her up and takes her away under those same impossible circumstances.

I don't get it.

Here's my issue with the "too small amount of time for something to have happened without somebody seeing a "helpful passerby". Obviously SOMETHING happened and nobody claims to have seen it. So what difference would it make if that something was a helpful passerby or Maura running off on a suicide mission....or even a tandem driver, though for other reasons I find that one hard to believe. But anyway, would it make her getting into a car farther down the road and being kidnapped more likely than a kidnapping at the scene? Probably. Some local scum could've been listening to a scanner and made a decision. He probably found her on foot further down the road, probably paying attention to her cell bars, and he A) offered to help her. She might have gone willingly thinking she just needed to get to cell reception. Or B) he took her unwillingly. The opportunity for abduction opens way up if she walked down the road away from the scene.


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[Yorkshire]

This timeline of events caught my attention recently. More specifically, this part;

Late October 2006

Volunteers lead a two day search within a few miles of where Maura's vehicle was found. In one particular area, a closet of an A-frame house, cadaver dogs went "bonkers," identifying the likely presence of decomposed human remains. A sample of the carpet was sent to the New Hampshire State Police - no tests are known to have been conducted.

I remember reading something similar elsewhere about the A-frame house but I struggled to find anything other than opinion, not facts. Can anyone shed any more light on this?

When Maura's Saturn crashed, the radiator was damaged. This alone would not have rendered the vehicle un-driveable. It would have run for a few miles at least before overheating. I doubt that she would have been aware of the damage to the radiator at the crash site.

Why did Maura not try to start the Saturn and continue on her journey?

Here's my issue with the "too small amount of time for something to have happened without somebody seeing a "helpful passerby". Obviously SOMETHING happened and nobody claims to have seen it. So what difference would it make if that something was a helpful passerby or Maura running off on a suicide mission....or even a tandem driver, though for other reasons I find that one hard to believe. But anyway, would it make her getting into a car farther down the road and being kidnapped more likely than a kidnapping at the scene? Probably. Some local scum could've been listening to a scanner and made a decision. He probably found her on foot further down the road, probably paying attention to her cell bars, and he A) offered to help her. She might have gone willingly thinking she just needed to get to cell reception. Or B) he took her unwillingly. The opportunity for abduction opens way up if she walked down the road away from the scene.

It seems strange to me that Maura refused an offer of help from the bus driver (Butch Atwood), but then accepted help further along the road from another passer-by. This is assuming she was picked up willingly, which, we do not know.

 

[Yorkshire]

Apologies if this has been shared already, but there is currently a petition running to get the FBI to take over the case. I am unsure what effect, if any, this petition will have but it is certainly worth signing.

https://www.change.org/p/federal-bu...d-for-in-the-maura-murray-missing-person-case

 

[Caffeine]

It seems strange to me that Maura refused an offer of help from the bus driver (Butch Atwood), but then accepted help further along the road from another passer-by. This is assuming she was picked up willingly, which, we do not know.

Atwood really had nothing to offer in terms of help. Keep in mind that Maura likely just crashed due to the influence of alcohol and not simply just due an error on her part. Regardless of her level of intoxication, the smell and presence of spilled booze were obvious. So she may have been borderline of the legal limit, or even way past it but either way she would have had some questions to answer to once police arrived.

With that said, you can't prove someone was driving drunk if you can't locate them.

Staying with Atwood would have still placed her at the scene, behind the wheel and with him as a witness to back that up. Leaving the scene was her only hope to escape any possible criminal charges as a result of this wreck. The police were on their way, there's no question about it. Maura knew that and I think that was her deciding factor to leave the scene, in one way or another.

 

[Yorkshire]

Atwood really had nothing to offer in terms of help. Keep in mind that Maura likely just crashed due to the influence of alcohol and not simply just due an error on her part. Regardless of her level of intoxication, the smell and presence of spilled booze were obvious. So she may have been borderline of the legal limit, or even way past it but either way she would have had some questions to answer to once police arrived.

With that said, you can't prove someone was driving drunk if you can't locate them.

Staying with Atwood would have still placed her at the scene, behind the wheel and with him as a witness to back that up. Leaving the scene was her only hope to escape any possible criminal charges as a result of this wreck. The police were on their way, there's no question about it. Maura knew that and I think that was her deciding factor to leave the scene, in one way or another.

You make some good points.

What intrigues me is how could Maura have known that the police were on their way?

Here is a quote from this site which is also interesting;

Witness statements of those passing by the scene have stated seeing an SUV cruiser with the #001 on it but this unit was not supposed to be on duty or involved in this incident at all. The first officer officially on scene and signed off was #002 in a Sedan operated by Officer Cecil Smith.

 

[bighairdontcare]

You make some good points.

What intrigues me is how could Maura have known that the police were on their way?

Here is a quote from this site which is also interesting;

Interesting . That is the first time I have heard this. Well if that is so, was this investigated ? Obviously the department knows what officer was assigned that particular cruiser


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[Yorkshire]

Interesting . That is the first time I have heard this. Well if that is so, was this investigated ? Obviously the department knows what officer was assigned that particular cruiser

Indeed.

Very interesting that a number of witnesses remember seeing a specific vehicle, but there are no reliable witness reports of anyone seeing Maura fleeing the crash site.

It appears to me that the whole case needs reviewing by a fresh pair of eyes.

 

[bighairdontcare]

Indeed.

Very interesting that a number of witnesses remember seeing a specific vehicle, but there are no reliable witness reports of anyone seeing Maura fleeing the crash site.

It appears to me that the whole case needs reviewing by a fresh pair of eyes.

Yes , I totally agree with you. There are pieces missing.
I really have a difficult time wrapping my head around how someone can just vanish Into thin air. To me, I believe that someone saw something ....


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