NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[Caffeine]

I doubt Atwood had any real involvement in this. Not only was it an extremely tight time frame, but his wife and mother were also home at the residence at time as well. Also, he was big guy with health problems at the time, if I recall, so I really don't think he had anything to do with it.

However, it's been said that perhaps he saw something that he wasn't entirely comfortable sharing, out of fear of his personal safety. So I suppose there is a chance he could have witnessed more but never spoke of it, maybe knowing this was a dangerous or well connected individual who interacted with Maura. But that's all speculation for now.

 

[Capstan07]

I doubt Atwood had any real involvement in this. Not only was it an extremely tight time frame, but his wife and mother were also home at the residence at time as well. Also, he was big guy with health problems at the time, if I recall, so I really don't think he had anything to do with it.

However, it's been said that perhaps he saw something that he wasn't entirely comfortable sharing, out of fear of his personal safety. So I suppose there is a chance he could have witnessed more but never spoke of it, maybe knowing this was a dangerous or well connected individual who interacted with Maura. But that's all speculation for now.

The tight timeline has always bothered me and IMO doesn't work in BAs favor.

Let's assume a person took advantage of the accident situation to harm MM. Between the accident and BA arriving, a bit of conversation and departing and then LE arriving--if the timeline is accurate and true--and then MM going missing is an impossible short period of time. We have witnesses from the house corroborating the timeline.

So if MM was harmed three possibilities.

One the perp was following her and waiting for an opportunity. Maybe he knew the car had issues from a previous stop she made--maybe he put the rag in the tail pipe. Maybe the Pedro just happens to be driving randomly and just sees the car smoking like crazy with young attractive and alone Woman driving and then she takes a desolate and rural route. Maybe he decides to follow her awhile knowing if the car is smoking that badly there is a good chance it will quit stranding her and the long it runs the more isolated that route is making her. It's a calculation that's reasonable for him to make if you have some basic car knowledge.

If he's following her he's seen BA in a big yellow bus and sees the houses nearby. He has such a tight window to formulate and execute a plan without being caught. Certainly possible he picked her up down the road out of view but the timing all has to be flawless within a very short time period.

The second possibility if MM was harmed was a chance encounter of opportunity presenting itself due to the accident. Again time frame so short but possible. This is where BA bothers me. I'm not accusing him but he was the last known to see her alive, spoke with her and he has some credibility problems.

The third possibility is a known person to her was following her with or without her knowledge.

This is all just a summary of what is known. I still see the condition of the car important to make hypothesizes about many factors.

I see the timeline as so tight to make many scenarios improbable but not impossible.

Basically after law of these years the investigation is still at square one.







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[DakotaMayi]

There were K9 units and film crews along Route 112 recreating the evening of Maura's disappearance. Anyone know what show this was for?

 

[a.neal13]

There were K9 units and film crews along Route 112 recreating the evening of Maura's disappearance. Anyone know what show this was for?

I believe (and would think) it is for a documentary. The creators of Missing Maura Murray podcast. Tim and Lance.

But of course, since being unsolved 13 years later, dogs and/or film crews could be there for the purpose of investigation.


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[scaredtopost]

I always assumed the rag was put in the tailpipe AFTER the accident. I could see MM putting it in herself after the wreck to block any smoke from attracting attention to her car. Especially if she was trying to elude police and being charged with a DWI.
JMO, MOO and all that jazz

 

[Capstan07]

I always assumed the rag was put in the tailpipe AFTER the accident. I could see MM putting it in herself after the wreck to block any smoke from attracting attention to her car. Especially if she was trying to elude police and being charged with a DWI.
JMO, MOO and all that jazz

No offense but your hypothesis makes no sense.

First a rag in the tail pipe does nothing. Never has. Never will. That's some sort of urban legend and wives-tail and makes no sense.

Secondly, after the wreck with the car not running what smoke would there be anyway? A car turned off not running....unless on fire and then a rags useless...isn't going to make any smoke.

Sorry to pick on you but it really doesn't make any sense.


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[flourish]

No need to be insulting... People believe urban legends and old wives tale...obviously. you can't discount something based just on the argument that you know it wouldn't work. Maybe if the poster "scared to post" (wonder why?) didn't know that's not really a thing Maura didn't, either. I mean, I don't actually disagree with you on this, just...geez .. people aren't always rational and it doesn't seem like Maura was at her best, rationally, at that time.

 

[Capstan07]

No need to be insulting... People believe urban legends and old wives tale...obviously. you can't discount something based just on the argument that you know it wouldn't work. Maybe if the poster "scared to post" (wonder why?) didn't know that's not really a thing Maura didn't, either. I mean, I don't actually disagree with you on this, just...geez .. people aren't always rational and it doesn't seem like Maura was at her best, rationally, at that time.

<mod snip>

My point is the suggestion after the wreck putting a rag in a tailpipe to keep a car from smoking really doesn't make sense. A car that's not running can't make any smoke. Ever seen an engine smoke that doesn't run? Nope. It can't smoke if it doesn't run.

So to suggest putting a rag in a tailpipe to hide smoke that doesn't exist--can't exist because its actually physics--no combustion--no smoke just isn't plausible.

Maybe you think about putting a rag in the tail pipe because you believe it will help--but when you look at the tail pipe and there is no smoke--why would you follow through with the rag?

Could it have been a signal to someone? Maybe. Fred? Maybe since he put the rag in the trunk originally they worked out a meaning if she ever broke down what the rag in the tail pipe would mean. Billy? Track coach lover? No idea. It's odd. But it certainly wasn't out there after an accident to hide smoke. There wasn't any smoke if the engine wasn't running.

Maybe the rag was in the tailpipe to make the car more visible. It's broken down after the wreck the rag was red? Maybe to help the car not get hit after the battery died and the flashers stopped. Maybe her plan was to call AAA and say I left a rag in the tailpipe so you know you got the right car???

I didn't post what I posted to be mean. I did it to debunk something that has no bearing on the investigation because what's suggested is physically impossible. She didn't put the rag in the tailpipe to hide smoke that wasn't even there after the wreck. Maybe before the accident I'll buy into her doing that based on a wives tail. That's possible. Not after the wreck for smoke.



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[Capstan07]

Back to being a signal.....maybe there was another driver behind her but behind her by a long time. Maybe they had to work late before leaving or who knows but the plan was to meet wherever they were going w MM leaving well before the other person.

MM and / or other person was worried the Saturn wouldn't make it. MM says hey if I break down and can't call you I'll put s rag in the tailpipe to mean ________. Fill in the blank. A signal meaning something that was pre agreed knowing cell service was sparse to say the least. Maybe Renner had it partially right. Another driver but far enough behind in time MM had a signal in case said person driving saw her broken down car she'd put the rag in the pipe to signify something. Maybe keep going I'll meet you there.

Just a guess. Wild speculation.


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[bunnygirl2001]

just watched another MM vid on the YouTube ... it's seriously so frustrating. The most logical thing to conclude seems to be her running away into the woods then dying of exposure. But surely SOME trace of her would of been found by now. And her alcohol that was missing - would she really run away carrying all that but then leave what she left in the car? And the window of opportunity for any unknown assailant to abduct or harm her in between when she was last seen and when LE showed up is just TOO narrow for me to comprehend that to be feasible. I could elaborate and speculate further, as I've done before, but this case just bothers me so much. Sorry for this pointless post I just had to get this out.


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[Capstan07]

just watched another MM vid on the YouTube ... it's seriously so frustrating. The most logical thing to conclude seems to be her running away into the woods then dying of exposure. But surely SOME trace of her would of been found by now. And her alcohol that was missing - would she really run away carrying all that but then leave what she left in the car? And the window of opportunity for any unknown assailant to abduct or harm her in between when she was last seen and when LE showed up is just TOO narrow for me to comprehend that to be feasible. I could elaborate and speculate further, as I've done before, but this case just bothers me so much. Sorry for this pointless post I just had to get this out.


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You and I totally on same page. That's why I keep coming back to BA. Last to see her alive. Has credibility issues.

Timeline so short.

The woods and not being found isn't surprising. She could be very close to where she left the car and the body hasn't been found. It happens. One day if it's there it will be found and matched forensically.

Was it even MM in the car? Occam's Razor says it was her BUT the description of her by BA was hair down MM always wore it in a bun and she was seen that day earlier w it in a bun.

Why won't the police release the ATM videos from the day of her disappearance?

BA alluded to an injury or a facial mark of some sort the LE believed identified her positively. The ATM video would show that possibly. What was it IF it was anything at all.

So many things. Yes. This case had me obsessed.


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[bunnygirl2001]

You and I totally on same page. That's why I keep coming back to BA. Last to see her alive. Has credibility issues.

Timeline so short.

The woods and not being found isn't surprising. She could be very close to where she left the car and the body hasn't been found. It happens. One day if it's there it will be found and matched forensically.

Was it even MM in the car? Occam's Razor says it was her BUT the description of her by BA was hair down MM always wore it in a bun and she was seen that day earlier w it in a bun.

Why won't the police release the ATM videos from the day of her disappearance?

BA alluded to an injury or a facial mark of some sort the LE believed identified her positively. The ATM video would show that possibly. What was it IF it was anything at all.

So many things. Yes. This case had me obsessed.


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This is one of those cases that has so many oddities and questions that point in every direction but no where at the same time. There is so much cause for speculation- I can literally spend hours theorizing based off all the known peculiarities about this case. But in the end, I feel as if that this case has a simple explanation. Either she died from the elements or someone who was cleared by LE got away with murder, and all the other mysterious coincidences were just in fact that - coincidences. Yet I also feel like the evidence all points in one painfully obvious place, where all the pieces to the puzzle magically fit- just no one has cracked it yet. I'm so torn. This is one of two cases that I literally stay up at night thinking about, and no matter how much I read or research or think about it nothing makes sense.


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[Capstan07]

This is one of those cases that has so many oddities and questions that point in every direction but no where at the same time. There is so much cause for speculation- I can literally spend hours theorizing based off all the known peculiarities about this case. But in the end, I feel as if that this case has a simple explanation. Either she died from the elements or someone who was cleared by LE got away with murder, and all the other mysterious coincidences were just in fact that - coincidences. Yet I also feel like the evidence all points in one painfully obvious place, where all the pieces to the puzzle magically fit- just no one has cracked it yet. I'm so torn. This is one of two cases that I literally stay up at night thinking about, and no matter how much I read or research or think about it nothing makes sense.


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Agreed.




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[trenchmouth]

You and I totally on same page. That's why I keep coming back to BA. Last to see her alive. Has credibility issues.

Timeline so short.

The woods and not being found isn't surprising. She could be very close to where she left the car and the body hasn't been found. It happens. One day if it's there it will be found and matched forensically.

Was it even MM in the car? Occam's Razor says it was her BUT the description of her by BA was hair down MM always wore it in a bun and she was seen that day earlier w it in a bun.

Why won't the police release the ATM videos from the day of her disappearance?

BA alluded to an injury or a facial mark of some sort the LE believed identified her positively. The ATM video would show that possibly. What was it IF it was anything at all.

So many things. Yes. This case had me obsessed.


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Said it before. Still don't think BA had anything to do with it. Why would you call the police if you killed her? He wouldn't have had time to do it and dispose of her. Plus his wife was home. He was old and obese from what I recall.

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[Capstan07]

Said it before. Still don't think BA had anything to do with it. Why would you call the police if you killed her? He wouldn't have had time to do it and dispose of her. Plus his wife was home. He was old and obese from what I recall.

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People kill people and commit crimes and call the police all of the time. It's very common. Extremely common.

He didn't have to kill her before LE show up or dispose of her. He just had to tie her up. Knock her out. Drug her. Incapacitate her.

He was older. Not old. He wasn't retired. He was fat. MM was tiny. Weak. Possibly drunk. Maybe head injury or woozy from the accident. Scared. Bulimic so maybe had no food in her system for how many days because of purging? Add everything up she might have been easy to subdue. Heck maybe she willingly got into the bus and then passed out.

BA had a shed at the back of his property. Never searched by LE. His wife I believe it was stated never went into his shed. Can't remember where I got them from--but it's in my memory for sure.

Heck MM could have been knocked out and in the bus just a few feet from where BA talked to LE.

We don't know. I hope BA wasn't a bad guy. But still last to see her. Had means and opportunity. Inconsistent story. Insisted on driving around searching for her on his own even before LE knew she was a missing person. He went up to a lake and drove around.

At least he said he spent time driving around looking for her after the LE left. He told his wife he was driving around looking for her. Was he? Where did he go? Odd.


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[bunnygirl2001]

Said it before. Still don't think BA had anything to do with it. Why would you call the police if you killed her? He wouldn't have had time to do it and dispose of her. Plus his wife was home. He was old and obese from what I recall.

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The only thing that bothers me with BA was that he was the last known person to see MM alive. Plain and simple. I truly don't think he had anything to do with it. How he recounts his interactions with her, feels too oddly specific to have just made that up to cover the fact that he had harmed her. And again, the timeline just seems so narrow to have phoned LE .. idk I just truly believe he had nothing to do with it and the only reason he ever gets back on to my train of thought when I think about potential assailants is really only due to the fact that he was the last known person to see her alive.


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[trenchmouth]

People kill people and commit crimes and call the police all of the time. It's very common. Extremely common.

He didn't have to kill her before LE show up or dispose of her. He just had to tie her up. Knock her out. Drug her. Incapacitate her.

He was older. Not old. He wasn't retired. He was fat. MM was tiny. Weak. Possibly drunk. Maybe head injury or woozy from the accident. Scared. Bulimic so maybe had no food in her system for how many days because of purging? Add everything up she might have been easy to subdue. Heck maybe she willingly got into the bus and then passed out.

BA had a shed at the back of his property. Never searched by LE. His wife I believe it was stated never went into his shed. Can't remember where I got them from--but it's in my memory for sure.

Heck MM could have been knocked out and in the bus just a few feet from where BA talked to LE.

We don't know. I hope BA wasn't a bad guy. But still last to see her. Had means and opportunity. Inconsistent story. Insisted on driving around searching for her on his own even before LE knew she was a missing person. He went up to a lake and drove around.

At least he said he spent time driving should after the LE left. He told his wife he was driving around looking for her. Was he? Where did he go? Odd.


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You raise some good points. Still risky to call police to the scene and risk them finding her tied up in a shed on his property

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[Capstan07]

You raise some good points. Still risky to call police to the scene and risk them finding her tied up in a shed on his property

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He knew people in the houses had seen the accident. He could have reasonably assumed they would have already called or would call the police. Maybe he even had a scanner in his bus or his radio could pick up the dispatch.

So he joins in. Knowing the police are on the way--Knowing he drives a big yellow bus that's hard to miss--he had to have know the cops are going to come and talk to him anyway. Any local cop knows what time BA would be getting home.

So yes he deduced this calls the cops.

Maybe MM willing went in the bus. Maybe a conversation like this happens.....hey the other neighbors calling the cops most likely they are on the way. Oh you got booze here. Your going to get a DUI. Look I was young once since you didn't hurt anyone get your booze and put it in my bus and get onboard. That way you won get caught but hurry.

MM thinks bus driver. Safe. Willing to help me. Good plan. Takes booze and gets on bus quickly.

BA wouldn't even have to knock her our tie her up. He backs up his drive and says hey lay down on the seat the cops won't see you and I'll go and talk to them and they will leave. MM doesn't want the cops to find her of course she she hides herself and keep quiet.

Or. Maybe they get to BA house w the bus and he says cops just got here they are by your car. I got a shed in the back. It's warm. Go hide back there and I'll get rid of the cops.

I mean it's endless the speculation but IMO the short timeline works against BA.

Last to see her. Credibility issues. Means. Opportunity.


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[trenchmouth]

He knew people in the houses had seen the accident. He could have reasonably assumed they would have already called or would call the police. Maybe he even had a scanner in his bus or his radio could pick up the dispatch.

So he joins in. Knowing the police are on the way--Knowing he drives a big yellow bus that's hard to miss--he had to have know the cops are going to come and talk to him anyway. Any local cop knows what time BA would be getting home.

So yes he deduced this calls the cops.

Maybe MM willing went in the bus. Maybe a conversation like this happens.....hey the other neighbors calling the cops most likely they are on the way. Oh you got booze here. Your going to get a DUI. Look I was young once since you didn't hurt anyone get your booze and put it in my bus and get onboard. That way you won get caught but hurry.

MM thinks bus driver. Safe. Willing to help me. Good plan. Takes booze and gets on bus quickly.

BA wouldn't even have to knock her our tie her up. He backs up his drive and says hey lay down on the seat the cops won't see you and I'll go and talk to them and they will leave. MM doesn't want the cops to find her of course she she hides herself and keep quiet.

Or. Maybe they get to BA house w the bus and he says cops just got here they are by your car. I got a shed in the back. It's warm. Go hide back there and I'll get rid of the cops.

I mean it's endless the speculation but IMO the short timeline works against BA.

Last to see her. Credibility issues. Means. Opportunity.


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Interesting theories. Not out of the realm of possibility. Also supports Occam's Razor theory.

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[Capstan07]

Maybe BA didn't hurt her. Maybe the above plays out. MM hides herself in the shed or on the bus. LE leaves. BA tells his wife he's going to take a drive and see if he can find her, go by the lake etc.

MM get in his car she tells him a sad story to win sympathy--she's a manipulator we know already--and talks BA into dropping her off somewhere or near her intended destination. Talks BA into keeping quiet for whatever reason. Abusive BF or Dad or whatever. Doesn't matter.

BA tells the cops his story....leaves out a few details....drops her off while "searching for her" Thinks he's done a good deed and helped her not get a DUI and escape the hard luck story she spins and he never touches her or lays a hand on her.

What happens now and next who knows. Enter a person she's supposed to meet harming her or running away or randomly gets harmed by a bad person.

But as the media starts to report things....maybe pregnant....the problems at West Point etc etc it reinforces to BA he did the right thing and keeps quiet.

Maybe down the line some time passes and BA realizes he shouldn't have done what he did even though it was to help her he thought. At this point he's not dumb and he realizes if he talks and tells LE he was helping her etc all of the sudden he's a suspect and he never even touched her. He knows she's missing. Maybe he's convinced she's fine having a new life or maybe he's worried something happened after he dropped her off.

Either way she's missing. He can't contact her. If he tells LE at this point he's going to be the suspect and arrested.

Another spin.


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