NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[Capstan07]

And just another wild speculation......earlier in the day there is a very credible sighting of MM from a cashier. Cashier said MM was with two other females. Could it have been Kate and Sarah? They were after all missing from school after MM disappeared and haven't been truthful w Police or cooperative at all.

The plan was for all 3 to get away somewhere for some boozing and to chill. MM drover herself. Left before her friends. Maybe wanted to stay a few days herself after they left so wanted her car. Worried about the car she says hey if you see it broken down and I don't have cell service I'll leave a rag in the tailpipe to let you know to still meet me I got a ride or whatever.

So BA does his good deed after wreck. Throws off cops. Drops MM at or near her destination.

Her friends show up. Tons of booze. MM dies in her sleep. Drunk vomits sleeping. Aspiration. Happens all the time. Or Heart gives out purging while or heart gives out sleeping because of purging. Endless possibilities. She's pregnant and tries a home abortion w her friends as helpers. MM is in nursing thinks she can handle it. Her friends don't remember if in nursing or not??? She dies. Endless wild speculation. Maybe as she's dying or in bad shape or just very drunk calls BR and leaves her crying message.

The other girls for any number of reasons don't want to be in trouble. Dump her body. Keep quiet.

Maybe they even tell FM. He loved them like his daughter or at least was close so he goes along w some lackluster searching. Now Renner's ideas about FM holding back and not really trying to find her. Only suing LE for info to see what they know.

More speculation. People w eating disorders factually a massive percentage have been abused sexually. Not saying it was FM. Could have been anyone. A teacher. Even a date rape. But virtually all EDs have some form of sexual assault. So FM kinda let's things be and protects the 2 girl friends and himself and family and MM memory.

Wild crazy. But maybe.




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[Crazyjster]

And just another wild speculation......earlier in the day there is a very credible sighting of MM from a cashier. Cashier said MM was with two other females. Could it have been Kate and Sarah? They werr


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I am curious...I have not heard that before...was that after she left UMASS and where did you hear it?

BTW you have have come up with some interesting scenarios

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[Capstan07]

I am curious...I have not heard that before...was that after she left UMASS and where did you hear it?

BTW you have have come up with some interesting scenarios

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I wish I had taken notes. I have been fascinated by this case a long time. I'll try to dig around where I got that from but I just can't remember. I believe it's true but admit I might not have it right.

Help me out ladies and gents!!! Someone knows.


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[Capstan07]

Also the post your quoted was only a small part what I wrote. I have to post a couple sentences and then switch to edit to keep writing so my iPad doesn't freeze and I loose everything. There was a lot more in the post you quoted.


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[Capstan07]

I am curious...I have not heard that before...was that after she left UMASS and where did you hear it?

BTW you have have come up with some interesting scenarios

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Hope I'm not breaking rules.

Found it!!!!

Comes from Renner. Cut and paste from his blog. I don't agree with everything Renner suggests. I do find what he researches and posts to be credible.


""""About an hour before Maura Murray vanished, she stopped in at Butson's Supermarket in Woodsville (now a Shaw's), with two other women, according to the woman who ran up her purchase.

I was a cashier. That day, I was running late on getting out on time. It was probably 5:45-6 p.m. when I was supposed to have gone off register. My last customers were three attractive ladies. They had picked up some alcoholic drinks, as I recall the blue wine coolers cus that's what I drank. They also picked up smokes. I ID'ed the three of them, and they were all 21-23. My supervisor was helping me to bag up their order.

I hear your skepticism. I was skeptical, too. But her story held up the closer I looked. Here's why:

1. She isn't just remembering this, now. She reported this as soon as she heard Maura went missing because she believed it was her. But she didn't report to police. She reported to her supervisor. The supervisor then told a random cop, who more than likely never filed the report. She has provided the name of the supervisor for verification.

2. She describes the young women who were with Maura in enough detail that she, without prior knowledge, described the person I believe was with Maura that night.

3. She told a member of the Murray family early on. She thought they could verify it by checking the cameras inside Buston's. Fred checked on it, himself, but was told there were no cameras. However, the cashier meant the cameras at the small bank branch inside the store. One of the cams pointed down the aisles.

4. Again, we have Maura purchasing alcohol with friends. This is well-established pattern. And the drinks she purchased are the exact kind of beverages Maura, Kate Markopoulos and Sara Alfieri were drinking that weekend.

She says Woodsville residents saw Maura and friends visit the McDonalds across the street (might there be credit card receipts?) after this. This completes the timeline, putting Maura and company at the scene of the accident right on time. The tandem car then turned around and picked Maura up.

When asked for more details, she goes on to say:

The actions of the three...nothing stands out now. Just one that I say was maura kept nervously looking behind her. The other two just seemed normal shoppers that weren't upset I ided them. At time, I wasn't much older than them. I'm 37 now.

This goes to the cold case unit, now.

It's time for her friends to come forward with the rest of the story.
Posted by James Renner at 5:59 AM
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[Capstan07]

And just another wild speculation......earlier in the day there is a very credible sighting of MM from a cashier. Cashier said MM was with two other females. Could it have been Kate and Sarah? They were after all missing from school after MM disappeared and haven't been truthful w Police or cooperative at all.

The plan was for all 3 to get away somewhere for some boozing and to chill. MM drover herself. Left before her friends. Maybe wanted to stay a few days herself after they left so wanted her car. Worried about the car she says hey if you see it broken down and I don't have cell service I'll leave a rag in the tailpipe to let you know to still meet me I got a ride or whatever.

So BA does his good deed after wreck. Throws off cops. Drops MM at or near her destination.

Her friends show up. Tons of booze. MM dies in her sleep. Drunk vomits sleeping. Aspiration. Happens all the time. Or Heart gives out purging while or heart gives out sleeping because of purging. Endless possibilities. She's pregnant and tries a home abortion w her friends as helpers. MM is in nursing thinks she can handle it. Her friends don't remember if in nursing or not??? She dies. Endless wild speculation. Maybe as she's dying or in bad shape or just very drunk calls BR and leaves her crying message.

The other girls for any number of reasons don't want to be in trouble. Dump her body. Keep quiet.

Maybe they even tell FM. He loved them like his daughter or at least was close so he goes along w some lackluster searching. Now Renner's ideas about FM holding back and not really trying to find her. Only suing LE for info to see what they know.

More speculation. People w eating disorders factually a massive percentage have been abused sexually. Not saying it was FM. Could have been anyone. A teacher. Even a date rape. But virtually all EDs have some form of sexual assault. So FM kinda let's things be and protects the 2 girl friends and himself and family and MM memory.

Wild crazy. But maybe.




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"""Clinical studies are inconsistent in reporting the numbers of eating disorders patients that have been sexually abused, and there is some controversy about this. Figures for bulimics with a history of sexual abuse range from an astounding 7% to 70%, with a majority reporting that roughly 60% of bulimics have experienced some form of sexual abuse (Vanderlinden, 1996). Since all of these figures do not include individuals who have repressed the memories of their abuse, the actual incidence is undoubtedly higher than much of the research has shown."""


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[Skigirl]

"""Clinical studies are inconsistent in reporting the numbers of eating disorders patients that have been sexually abused, and there is some controversy about this. Figures for bulimics with a history of sexual abuse range from an astounding 7% to 70%, with a majority reporting that roughly 60% of bulimics have experienced some form of sexual abuse (Vanderlinden, 1996). Since all of these figures do not include individuals who have repressed the memories of their abuse, the actual incidence is undoubtedly higher than much of the research has shown."""


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Gosh, I feel like I'm being so negative, and I really don't mean to be. But as a person who used to be considered an expert in memory, I can say that most of the "repressed memory" research has been roundly debunked. And the rate of false memories for all sorts of things is way higher than was believed eons ago when that 1996 article was written. I have no doubt that many people with all sorts of problems have been sexually abused, and don't even doubt (though I have no evidence for against the claim) that the rate of history of sexual abuse is higher in people with eating disorders than in other members of the population, but the above source is prima facie very questionable.

 

[Capstan07]

Gosh, I feel like I'm being so negative, and I really don't mean to be. But as a person who used to be considered an expert in memory, I can say that most of the "repressed memory" research has been roundly debunked. And the rate of false memories for all sorts of things is way higher than was believed eons ago when that 1996 article was written. I have no doubt that many people with all sorts of problems have been sexually abused, and don't even doubt (though I have no evidence for against the claim) that the rate of history of sexual abuse is higher in people with eating disorders than in other members of the population, but the above source is prima facie very questionable.

You took my point into the weeds. The exact statistics don't matter. What is agreed by every study is a significant percentage of women with eating disorders have been sexually abused. That's a fact. I've had many relationships with woman that have or have had eating disorders and every one of them had sexual abuse in their history as well.

Since a majority of women with eating disorders have been sexually abused and MM had an ED it makes me wonder about any possible sexual abuse she may have suffered.

Who abused her, when and where could be part of her disappearance, suicide, murder or state of mind. I'm not saying I believe in any or all of those theories but if he was abused it could play a significant part in so many aspects of her decisions and why she's missing AND why Renner thinks FM and others really were not interested in finder her......not advocating Renner's belief but it could give it more credibility.


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[Crazyjster]

Wait a sec...MM having an ED is not a fact... it is speculation only...no where is it confirmed by anyone other then people judging her actions that make that assumption. That ranks right up there with saying she was an alcoholic. She was a college student...at UMASS...if her eating and drinking habits are criteria for DSM diagnoses, then you can apply them to a huge percentage of college girls (current and former)...and a huge percentage magically outgrow it.

As for BA or the other neighbor possibly being involved, that has always been my thinking from the beginning when the press was covering the case when she first went missing. Small town PD...well...things get handled a little different.

From my understanding she only had a backpack on her and was not carrying booze and her belongings, those were left in the car. That tells me she had every intention of coming back, rather than fleeing. She barely had an "accident," if you can call it that...more like fishtailed...how the rag other there, who knows? And again there was no proof she was drunk, or drinking and driving...again speculation.

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[bluesneakers]

This is one of those cases that has so many oddities and questions that point in every direction but no where at the same time. There is so much cause for speculation- I can literally spend hours theorizing based off all the known peculiarities about this case. But in the end, I feel as if that this case has a simple explanation. Either she died from the elements or someone who was cleared by LE got away with murder, and all the other mysterious coincidences were just in fact that - coincidences. Yet I also feel like the evidence all points in one painfully obvious place, where all the pieces to the puzzle magically fit- just no one has cracked it yet. I'm so torn. This is one of two cases that I literally stay up at night thinking about, and no matter how much I read or research or think about it nothing makes sense.


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I've stayed up thinking about it too and listing everything I know hoping something will make sense. In the end I'm with you - she either attempted to walk or hide and died from exposure, or someone took her and got away with murder. I go back and forth on who the someone could be.

 

[Caffeine]

I've stayed up thinking about it too and listing everything I know hoping something will make sense. In the end I'm with you - she either attempted to walk or hide and died from exposure, or someone took her and got away with murder. I go back and forth on who the someone could be.

I feel the same way. I think either way it was some extraordinary circumstances due to the fact she managed to elude being seen and disappearing in such a small time frame. She was observed at the scene, yet by sheer luck all witnesses basically looked away simultaneously and she was gone and not long after when police arrived, they couldn't locate her either.

I do think the most plausible scenarios are in fact the two you mentioned. I have some reservations with the idea of her finding her way into the woods and subsequently dying there. However, without any easy explanation or obvious clues we must be willing to accept that perhaps the answer here isn't conventional or something we'd expect. After all, she's been missing for 13 years now and we're still clueless. On one hand, the area has been searched extensively yet the woods can often seem infinite - areas can be missed or overlooked. While it doesn't seem like a sensible choice to me, again - I think we're dealing with a unique chain of events and some unusual circumstances.

But, I can't count out foul play either. Yes, the area has been searched - but that is limited to public property. Certainly you have to wonder that maybe she wasn't found because she's simply not in a public area. If we can accept the idea she could have escaped on foot, despite the timing and the witnesses than I can't disregard the idea she may have jumped in a car and just as quickly left the scene. She definitely defied all odds and somehow vanished from the area in some manner, how she did it is the big question.

In the end, while the woods are a vast area to find someone, but I've always thought the path of least resistance here is her leaving by car and somehow dying shortly thereafter.

She was likely intoxicated to some degree so I don't necessarily think that would benefit a dark trek in the woods, with her never being found. I could be wrong, but taking a ride in a warm car to me seems like more of a choice that a confused, upset, possibly drunk young woman would make...especially if she didn't want to answer to police.

 

[bluesneakers]

I feel the same way. I think either way it was some extraordinary circumstances due to the fact she managed to elude being seen and disappearing in such a small time frame. She was observed at the scene, yet by sheer luck all witnesses basically looked away simultaneously and she was gone and not long after when police arrived, they couldn't locate her either.

I do think the most plausible scenarios are in fact the two you mentioned. I have some reservations with the idea of her finding her way into the woods and subsequently dying there. However, without any easy explanation or obvious clues we must be willing to accept that perhaps the answer here isn't conventional or something we'd expect. After all, she's been missing for 13 years now and we're still clueless. On one hand, the area has been searched extensively yet the woods can often seem infinite - areas can be missed or overlooked. While it doesn't seem like a sensible choice to me, again - I think we're dealing with a unique chain of events and some unusual circumstances.

But, I can't count out foul play either. Yes, the area has been searched - but that is limited to public property. Certainly you have to wonder that maybe she wasn't found because she's simply not in a public area. If we can accept the idea she could have escaped on foot, despite the timing and the witnesses than I can't disregard the idea she may have jumped in a car and just as quickly left the scene. She definitely defied all odds and somehow vanished from the area in some manner, how she did it is the big question.

In the end, while the woods are a vast area to find someone, but I've always thought the path of least resistance here is her leaving by car and somehow dying shortly thereafter.

She was likely intoxicated to some degree so I don't necessarily think that would benefit a dark trek in the woods, with her never being found. I could be wrong, but taking a ride in a warm car to me seems like more of a choice that a confused, upset, possibly drunk young woman would make...especially if she didn't want to answer to police.

And if she did get in a car (which I too think is more likely) no one would have any idea where to begin searching. There's a lot of wilderness up there.

 

[Caffeine]

And if she did get in a car (which I too think is more likely) no one would have any idea where to begin searching. There's a lot of wilderness up there.

There's definitely lots of possibilities if she traveled by car - if she simply took a ride from a genuine good samaritan, she could have ended up virtually anywhere. Then maybe she could have yet again taken another ride and then ended up way far outside of everyone's radar.

Or...she took a ride and things took a more nefarious turn. Regardless, if ended up 15 minutes down the road or 2 hours away, the perpetrator would likely have the advantage of being on secluded private property and/or being alone with Maura, possibly earning her trust and then things may have gone awry.

There's been countless cases over the years where, if it wasn't for a confession or an absolute tiny shred of evidence, a killer would have walked free...likely for his entire life. I'm starting to think Maura was just a victim of bad timing and somehow a person defied all odds and was able to take her away from the scene completely undetected.

 

[Skigirl]

You took my point into the weeds. The exact statistics don't matter. What is agreed by every study is a significant percentage of women with eating disorders have been sexually abused. That's a fact. I've had many relationships with woman that have or have had eating disorders and every one of them had sexual abuse in their history as well.

Since a majority of women with eating disorders have been sexually abused and MM had an ED it makes me wonder about any possible sexual abuse she may have suffered.

Who abused her, when and where could be part of her disappearance, suicide, murder or state of mind. I'm not saying I believe in any or all of those theories but if he was abused it could play a significant part in so many aspects of her decisions and why she's missing AND why Renner thinks FM and others really were not interested in finder her......not advocating Renner's belief but it could give it more credibility.


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The statistics matter because a "significant percentage" can mean a lot of different things. Please provide the link to the source for the claim that "every study" shows "a significant percentage of women with eating disorders have been sexually abused." And as a side-note, a "significant percentage" is not the same thing as "the majority". We don't even know that she indeed had an eating disorder (I suspect so, but those are just my suspicions), much less that she had an eating disorder that was linked with some prior sexual abuse.

 

[Crazyjster]

Renner is not qualified to make many of the statements he has made in regards to mental health (amongst other things) because they are simply not fact...only theories or assumptions . The problem is, when it is repeated enough people believe it to be true...stick to facts that can be proven...and base theories on those jmo

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[Capstan07]

Renner is not qualified to make many of the statements he has made in regards to mental health (amongst other things) because they are simply not fact...only theories or assumptions . The problem is, when it is repeated enough people believe it to be true...stick to facts that can be proven...and base theories on those jmo

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She's missing. That's the only one.


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[Caffeine]

There's a lot of theories out there that are well presented and somewhat sensible. But some require larger leaps of faith than others. In the end, we don't necessarily know what's relevant and what's not. Surely some things might be important, other things may be totally unrelated.

She looked up a Web search about alcohol and early pregnancy.

She called Stowe, VT and Linda Salomone's place for lodging.

There was a rag found in her tail pipe.

She lied about a death in her family to excuse herself from school.

There's dozens of pieces of information one can use and form a basis of what may have happened to Maura. Again, some things are more believable than others.

However, I think it's certainly worth considering that perhaps Maura's dissapearence is a result of things beyond her control and little or nothing is truly connected. There's definitely outcomes that I feel are less probable but at this point nothing can really be ruled out either.

 

[Stella]

I just watched episode 36 (the one with Renner as guest) of the MM podcast and was struck by a couple of questions concerning his belief that Maura was pregnant when she left and is still alive. We know she had her birth control pills with her when she left; they were found in her car. So how do you get pregnant when you're on the pill? You don't, not even if you skip a day or two. It's not like the early days of the pill when they weren't always 100%. So I don't believe she was pregnant. Another question-if by some chance she was pregnant, what makes him so sure Rausch was the father? It could've been the running/track coach she had been having an affair with.

 

[Tssiemer]

I just watched episode 36 (the one with Renner as guest) of the MM podcast and was struck by a couple of questions concerning his belief that Maura was pregnant when she left and is still alive. We know she had her birth control pills with her when she left; they were found in her car. So how do you get pregnant when you're on the pill? You don't, not even if you skip a day or two. It's not like the early days of the pill when they weren't always 100%. So I don't believe she was pregnant. Another question-if by some chance she was pregnant, what makes him so sure Rausch was the father? It could've been the running/track coach she had been having an affair with.

Uhm. No contraception is 100%. Especially if you don't use it correctly.


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[Stella]

99.9%. It would be Maura's luck to be that tiny percentage though, wouldn't it. http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-pills#1