NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[armywife210]

I'm still trying to figure out how he confirmed or proved that Mauras room had been packed up rather than just not being unpacked. How would one accurately confirm or prove that?


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[armywife210]

College students live out of boxes all of the time.


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[Tarik]

I'm still trying to figure out how he confirmed or proved that Mauras room had been packed up rather than just not being unpacked. How would one accurately confirm or prove that?


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The only real way to prove or accurately confirm that at this point would be with a picture of the room dated from that period of time or with a video recording of the room. You can always find witnesses who will claim something but that's not actual evidence so it should be treated carefully. As far as I know, there have been conflicting reports as to whether her room was unpacked or packed up and that should be looked into.

 

[Ava Adore]

I think you hit the nail on the head. A blog post is not evidence. A blog post saying something was "confirmed" by an unnamed source is not evidence. I've noticed that JR tends to categories a lot of things as being confirmed without any hard evidence to back it up, or at least enough information to let others judge the reliability on their own. Then even worse, others will simply point to a post of his and claim it as fact. He's by no means the only offender...I think the case is full of it and it just muddies the water.

I quite honestly assumed he leaves a lot out because he needs to keep the "meat and potatoes" of his book in his book. Peoples opinions on him vary, but I don't believe he'd make statements like these unless he did actually speak to someone. Maybe that someone is lying, but I don't think he is. His editor/publisher wouldn't even allow that. But we will have to wait and see when the book comes out. Just my two cents. [emoji5]

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[kfed83]

I quite honestly assumed he leaves a lot out because he needs to keep the "meat and potatoes" of his book in his book. Peoples opinions on him vary, but I don't believe he'd make statements like these unless he did actually speak to someone. Maybe that someone is lying, but I don't think he is. His editor/publisher wouldn't even allow that. But we will have to wait and see when the book comes out. Just my two cents. [emoji5]

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Yeah, I don't think there's any purposeful deceit, but I think one of the big differences between a seasoned detective and amateur investigator is the ability to judge whether information being told to you is truthful or not. Just because someone tells me something is true doesn't make it so, and everything someone says has to be passed through the filter of how reliable of a source a person is, whether they appear to be telling the truth, their potential hidden motives, etc. I feel like a lot of information from JR is simply passed through unfiltered. I'm not trying to say I'm an amazing judge of truthfulness either, but I know not to believe everything that's told to me. A skeptical eye is very important.

 

[Fireweed]

When I lived in the dorms, we did not pack up our stuff for winter break. Is that even a possibility here? We take it at a given that Maura could have just "not unpacked" but unless packing up your stuff was required, then maybe such speculation does not even enter into the equation here.

Okay I got it. This has been driving me absolutely nuts here for years that everyone just assumed that Maura packed up her stuff for winter break. I had never heard of that before for people living in the dorms and planning on returning in spring, yet all the comments here over the years just assumed that was true. We have got to stop assuming stuff like that.

Winter Closing Checklist for Students Returning to the Same Assignment

Close and secure windows in your room and turn off lights.
Take out any recyclables or trash.
Unplug and Defrost Refrigerator.
Pack and bring any valuables, medications or items you may need over winter session. You will not be able to access your hall until January 17th at 9:00am.
Put your room key in a safe place! You will need it when you return. Residents who lose their key over winter session will be subject to at a $50 recore Fee unless an expedited recore is required.
Vacate your hall by no later than 12:00pm (noon) on December 19th.

If Maura's stuff was packed up, then she more likely that not packed it after she came back from winter break. Indeed I would bet that she packed up her room the day she left town.

 

[Ava Adore]

Yeah, I don't think there's any purposeful deceit, but I think one of the big differences between a seasoned detective and amateur investigator is the ability to judge whether information being told to you is truthful or not. Just because someone tells me something is true doesn't make it so, and everything someone says has to be passed through the filter of how reliable of a source a person is, whether they appear to be telling the truth, their potential hidden motives, etc. I feel like a lot of information from JR is simply passed through unfiltered. I'm not trying to say I'm an amazing judge of truthfulness either, but I know not to believe everything that's told to me. A skeptical eye is very important.

Oh, totally.

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[Jmoose]

At the college I attended (many years ago), we had a long break after Christmas-the college would offer "January term" classes that a student could attend. So that the college wouldn't have to bear the expense of keeping all of the dorms open in the cold winter weather, they kept only one or maybe two dorms open. We were offered a sum of money for packing up our rooms before the break and offering them up for the January term students to stay in-so all of your stuff had to be boxed up until after the break was over, and your room was vacant again. I wonder if UMass did the same thing, thus explaining why some of Maura's things were in boxes

 

[armywife210]

Yeah, I don't think there's any purposeful deceit, but I think one of the big differences between a seasoned detective and amateur investigator is the ability to judge whether information being told to you is truthful or not. Just because someone tells me something is true doesn't make it so, and everything someone says has to be passed through the filter of how reliable of a source a person is, whether they appear to be telling the truth, their potential hidden motives, etc. I feel like a lot of information from JR is simply passed through unfiltered. I'm not trying to say I'm an amazing judge of truthfulness either, but I know not to believe everything that's told to me. A skeptical eye is very important.

And, at least as far as I'm concerned, maybe nobody has been dishonest about it but it comes down to interpretation. There is no note that says "I packed because I'm leaving for good". There is only a room that is partially packed. If I walk in that room and say "oh, she never unpacked" and a detective walks in and says "oh, she packed"... Who's to say who's right?


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[Murkywaters]

http://whitmanhansonexpress.com/petition-seeks-action-on-murray-mystery/
Article in response to the petition,

The FBI, meanwhile maintains it is already aiding in the investigation.

“The FBI is assisting New Hampshire Sate Police and we’re going to defer to them as they are the lead agency,” spokesman Kristen Setera of the Boston FBI office said in a prepared statement this week. “Due to the fact that there is an ongoing investigation, we have to decline further comment.”

So the FBI still is aiding with the investigation, but is not the lead agency in charge.

 

[Jmoose]

How many semesters had Maura spent at UMass before she disappeared?

 

[lawstudent]

And, at least as far as I'm concerned, maybe nobody has been dishonest about it but it comes down to interpretation. There is no note that says "I packed because I'm leaving for good". There is only a room that is partially packed. If I walk in that room and say "oh, she never unpacked" and a detective walks in and says "oh, she packed"... Who's to say who's right?


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Exactly. Thank you. Very well articulated.

 

[armywife210]

How many semesters had Maura spent at UMass before she disappeared?

Well she spent 1 1/2 years at West Point and she was a senior at UMASS when she went missing so I'd estimate 2 years depending on where she was in that senior year....so I think she was in her 4th semester there....though I could be wrong because I'm not exactly sure how many of her West Point credits were transferable to her nursing program.


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[xjd]

please forgive if this has been addressed before, but someone on the MM reddit site posted an interesting question.

what if someone did pick up Maura right after the accident and then THAT car got in an accident and ended up as a Jane Doe elsewhere? my question is not so much that (Maura would have to have been the most car-cursed person ever), but the issue of her remains not being id'd yet interests me. i'm not sure how to do those Doe searches to fit specific demographic as to age, gender, height weight etc.

has anyone done a Doe network search to rule out Maura's body being found somewhere else?

 

[Caffeine]

please forgive if this has been addressed before, but someone on the MM reddit site posted an interesting question.

what if someone did pick up Maura right after the accident and then THAT car got in an accident and ended up as a Jane Doe elsewhere? my question is not so much that (Maura would have to have been the most car-cursed person ever), but the issue of her remains not being id'd yet interests me. i'm not sure how to do those Doe searches to fit specific demographic as to age, gender, height weight etc.

has anyone done a Doe network search to rule out Maura's body being found somewhere else?

That is an interesting question and probably only lightly touched upon before. As with a lot of things with this case, we have to simply assume a competent police force would have checked databases in regards to Maura's dissapearence. By now, I would think, had her body been found elsewhere it would have been cross referenced and linked to NH.

However, for Maura to accept a ride from a stranger and wind up in somewhere far, like maybe California, that would require a tremendous amount of trust from someone she doesn't know. Even if this was some sort of master manipulator, at some point you'd think Maura would have fled when she felt uneasy.

Of course, a chain of events with numerous people could have landed her far, far away. But then I think we're entertaining the idea she purposely went into hiding, which I don't think is likely.

Still, if this was a bet, my money would go to her being deceased. To a lesser extent, I think her remains are likely in the area of the crash. If she were to be found deceased (or alive) outside of New England, I'd be down right shocked.

 

[Tarik]

That is an interesting question and probably only lightly touched upon before. As with a lot of things with this case, we have to simply assume a competent police force would have checked databases in regards to Maura's dissapearence. By now, I would think, had her body been found elsewhere it would have been cross referenced and linked to NH.

However, for Maura to accept a ride from a stranger and wind up in somewhere far, like maybe California, that would require a tremendous amount of trust from someone she doesn't know. Even if this was some sort of master manipulator, at some point you'd think Maura would have fled when she felt uneasy.

Of course, a chain of events with numerous people could have landed her far, far away. But then I think we're entertaining the idea she purposely went into hiding, which I don't think is likely.

Still, if this was a bet, my money would go to her being deceased. To a lesser extent, I think her remains are likely in the area of the crash. If she were to be found deceased (or alive) outside of New England, I'd be down right shocked.

I thought it was established that the time span from the moment of the crash to the moment of her disappearing was too short for an abduction to have taken place without anybody witnessing it.

 

[Caffeine]

I thought it was established that the time span from the moment of the crash to the moment of her disappearing was too short for an abduction to have taken place without anybody witnessing it.

Yes and no. For her to enter a car it would have taken a matter of seconds. Grab a bag, lock the Saturn, hop in and gone. That doesn't require an extraordinary amount of time, IMO.

But folks are divided about this part; most who believe the car theory will think she either 1) was driving in tandem and knew the driver or 2) was abducted in the literal sense: bad guy rolls up with a brandished weapon and forces her into his vehicle.

But what we don't always take into account is 3) she was intoxicated to a certain degree, nervous about the crash and probably willing to take a ride from anyone who would remove her from that situation.

So if she was indeed picked up from the crash site, it doesn't mean it was some random abductor who was trolling around with a weapon looking for victims, but instead perhaps someone who saw a vulnerable young woman stranded and maybe saw an easy rape victim and things went awry from there.

If she did in fact get into a car, I'm willing to think it was a quick and easy exchange, whether it was someone known to her or some average looking motorist with bad intentions who offered her a lift, which would have removed her from the accident, the evidence and the witnesses.

Either way the quick getaway seems to lead to a voluntary choice on her part and I tend to think that was a result of another car.

 

[killadff]

I'm looking at the conspiracy theories and some things stick out to me.

1. When did the state police arrive on the scene?
2. Does the state police use Grafton county dispatch?
3. Is it unusual for Fire/Rescue to arrive ten minutes after the cops?
4. What time was Fire/ Rescue toned out for the accident?

 

[Tarik]

I'm looking at the conspiracy theories and some things stick out to me.

1. When did the state police arrive on the scene?
2. Does the state police use Grafton county dispatch?
3. Is it unusual for Fire/Rescue to arrive ten minutes after the cops?
4. What time was Fire/ Rescue toned out for the accident?

All of that was answered on the podcast show in the episodes with Truth Seeker (John Smith) and on John Smith's WordPress. You should look it up.

 

[Tarik]

Yes and no. For her to enter a car it would have taken a matter of seconds. Grab a bag, lock the Saturn, hop in and gone. That doesn't require an extraordinary amount of time, IMO.

But folks are divided about this part; most who believe the car theory will think she either 1) was driving in tandem and knew the driver or 2) was abducted in the literal sense: bad guy rolls up with a brandished weapon and forces her into his vehicle.

But what we don't always take into account is 3) she was intoxicated to a certain degree, nervous about the crash and probably willing to take a ride from anyone who would remove her from that situation.

So if she was indeed picked up from the crash site, it doesn't mean it was some random abductor who was trolling around with a weapon looking for victims, but instead perhaps someone who saw a vulnerable young woman stranded and maybe saw an easy rape victim and things went awry from there.

If she did in fact get into a car, I'm willing to think it was a quick and easy exchange, whether it was someone known to her or some average looking motorist with bad intentions who offered her a lift, which would have removed her from the accident, the evidence and the witnesses.

Either way the quick getaway seems to lead to a voluntary choice on her part and I tend to think that was a result of another car.

All of that could potentially be true but, just like John Smith, I am deeply bothered that, conveniently enough, oh so conveniently, nobody, be it Butch Atwood or the Westmans (basically 3 people + Butch's wife) were looking in the direction of Maura's car when that alleged abduction took place. I'm not saying any of them lied but it bothers me that surprisingly and conveniently enough, none of them were looking to see what could have happened when it happened. She had to have had some incredible and unprecedented luck to vanish without ANYBODY seeing anything. You could repeat the whole incident/scene over and over again and I guarantee you that 9 times out of 10 she would have been seen by somebody at some crucial point. And just like I find the fact that nobody was looking too convenient, I also find the idea that she took off in another car extremely convenient. The odds of that happening are ridiculously slim and require minute-to-minute detailed premeditation and planning both from Maura and the alleged other driver.