NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[Tarik]

I really don't see how it can be a sexual fantasy for anybody to investigate a missing person case about a teenage girl, let alone when it's about someone you didn't know and never even met but you're free to think otherwise. ^^

 

[CanManEh]

hello everyone I use to post on maura's thread quite a bit but havent been here n awhile ..I just have one question have any of you seen watched or heard about the guy on youtube that goes by user name- mister112dirtbag i wont say anything more about why just wait to see if any of you have heard of this guy and his actions....

 

[Laughing]

hello everyone I use to post on maura's thread quite a bit but havent been here n awhile ..I just have one question have any of you seen watched or heard about the guy on youtube that goes by user name- mister112dirtbag i wont say anything more about why just wait to see if any of you have heard of this guy and his actions....

IIRC this was discussed upthread....

 

[Pettibon Junction]

hello everyone I use to post on maura's thread quite a bit but havent been here n awhile ..I just have one question have any of you seen watched or heard about the guy on youtube that goes by user name- mister112dirtbag i wont say anything more about why just wait to see if any of you have heard of this guy and his actions....

He's been discussed to death. No connection, just a sick old schizophrenic with an unhealthy obsession.

 

[Fireweed]

I really don't see how it can be a sexual fantasy for anybody to investigate a missing person case about a teenage girl, let alone when it's about someone you didn't know and never even met but you're free to think otherwise. ^^

I do not think it is a sexual fantasy. I think it psychologically meets a need to feel a strong connection with an attractive young female who is a "damsel in distress" to them. You see that they brag about knowing things about her that other people do not know. I think that getting involved in cases like this gives them a sense of ownership over that female.

I simply observed that it is generally middle-aged men who have become sexually and intimately disenfranchised from young women who do this. I have never seen them do this when a young man goes missing. Maura's case I think is very titillating to them because Maura was a total damsel in distress who was "running from her father". Clearly this case hits a lot buttons with men. I mean they finally on the podcast allowed a female to speak. And whenever women here do express an opinion about what it is actually like to be a woman that age, the men "in charge" always shoot it down.

My opinion is that it breaks the fantasy cycle for them about who they think Maura was, or how they think any young pretty woman is. It is especially distressing when we bring up that Maura was a grown adult with free agency.

 

[Lolacat]

I really don't see how it can be a sexual fantasy for anybody to investigate a missing person case about a teenage girl, let alone when it's about someone you didn't know and never even met but you're free to think otherwise. ^^

I know EXACTLY what fireweed means. Ive noticed this phenomenon myself. I'm certainly not saying that every man interested in this case finds it to be some kind of pseudo sexual fantasy to be interested in a young, attractive young girl going missing but that doesnt mean that there are some older men who have attached themselves to this case who dont. Common fantasies involve both power and sex together and by inserting oneself into this case you could argue that you achieve both a *power* of some sort because you have access to information that others dont, and also that you get just close enough to the woman in question to get some kind of thrill out of it, without having to face the reality of who that person actually is, flaws and all. In fact, I would go so far as to say that MANY fantasies people have are OFTEN about people they have never actually met because they can make it all up in their heads- the sky is the limit as far as what you imagine that person to be like. You can imagine all kinds of things about them and those things can never be refuted by actual real life. Put it this way: can you imagine a middle aged woman releasing a video like alden olsen did if Maura had been a young 21 year old male who went missing?......

 

[Pettibon Junction]

I know EXACTLY what fireweed means. Ive noticed this phenomenon myself. I'm not saying that every man interested in this case finds it to be some kind of pseudo sexual fantasy to be interested in a young, attractive young girl going missing but that doesnt mean that there are some older men who have attached themselves to this case who dont. Common fantasies involve both power and sex together and by inserting oneself into this case you could argue that you achieve both a *power* of some sort because you have access to information that others dont, and also that you get just close enough to the woman in question to get some kind of thrill out of it, without having to face the reality of who that person actually is, flaws and all. In fact, I would go so far as to say that MANY fantasies people have are OFTEN about people they have never actually met because they can make it all up in their heads- the sky is the limit as far as what you imagine that person to be like. You can imagine all kinds of things about them and those things can never be refuted by actual real life. Put it this way: can you imagine a middle aged woman releasing a video like alden olsen did if Maura had been a young 21 year old male who went missing?......

^This, all of it.

It gets so frustrating seeing the same tired arguments as to why certain things couldn't have happened, the same masculine voices professing Maura's inscrutability, as much in love with the mystery as the alleged damsel herself. This case and the mystique surrounding it has been a master class in the utter toxicity of the male gaze. Makes me think of Eugenides' The Virgin Suicides, and this passage in particular:

"Dr. Armonson stitched up her wrist wounds. Within five minutes of the transfusion, he declared her out of danger. Chucking under her chin, he said, 'What are you doing here, honey? You're not even old enough to know how bad life gets.'

And it was then that Cecilia gave orally what was to be her only form of suicide note, and a useless one at that, because she was going to live: 'Obviously, Doctor, she said, 'you've never been a thirteen-year-old girl.' "

 

[bluesneakers]

I do not think it is a sexual fantasy. I think it psychologically meets a need to feel a strong connection with an attractive young female who is a "damsel in distress" to them. You see that they brag about knowing things about her that other people do not know. I think that getting involved in cases like this gives them a sense of ownership over that female.

I simply observed that it is generally middle-aged men who have become sexually and intimately disenfranchised from young women who do this. I have never seen them do this when a young man goes missing. Maura's case I think is very titillating to them because Maura was a total damsel in distress who was "running from her father". Clearly this case hits a lot buttons with men. I mean they finally on the podcast allowed a female to speak. And whenever women here do express an opinion about what it is actually like to be a woman that age, the men "in charge" always shoot it down.

My opinion is that it breaks the fantasy cycle for them about who they think Maura was, or how they think any young pretty woman is. It is especially distressing when we bring up that Maura was a grown adult with free agency.

My experience with this has led me to skim over and not reply to most posts.

 

[Tarik]

I know EXACTLY what fireweed means. Ive noticed this phenomenon myself. I'm certainly not saying that every man interested in this case finds it to be some kind of pseudo sexual fantasy to be interested in a young, attractive young girl going missing but that doesnt mean that there are some older men who have attached themselves to this case who dont. Common fantasies involve both power and sex together and by inserting oneself into this case you could argue that you achieve both a *power* of some sort because you have access to information that others dont, and also that you get just close enough to the woman in question to get some kind of thrill out of it, without having to face the reality of who that person actually is, flaws and all. In fact, I would go so far as to say that MANY fantasies people have are OFTEN about people they have never actually met because they can make it all up in their heads- the sky is the limit as far as what you imagine that person to be like. You can imagine all kinds of things about them and those things can never be refuted by actual real life. Put it this way: can you imagine a middle aged woman releasing a video like alden olsen did if Maura had been a young 21 year old male who went missing?......

Yes, I can imagine a middle aged woman releasing a video like Alden Olsen if Maura had been a man. With that being said, I don't think it's appropriate for us to be speculating on that type of thing nor is it appropriate for us to throw Alden Olsen in the picture and compare him with John Smith who has done some actual research and genuinely wants to help the Murray family. We can go on about this but like I said I don't believe men would be acting any different if Maura happened to be a man. However, there are idiots and shaddy characters everywhere and nobody will deny that. I'm a man myself and when I go into missing person cases, I don't go into them thinking : "Geez, if only I can help solve a mystery that involves a beautiful teenage girl". You see what I mean, I don't pick my interest in a case based on the gender of the missing person and I honestly want to believe that most men also don't choose based on gender.

 

[Lolacat]

I wish it werent true, but unfortunately gender and race *do* play a role in the media attention/public response given to missing people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome

It seems that attractive, young, white women DO get the most media coverage/public interest and society really needs to ask ourselves why this is. There is a very specific gender/race dynamic going on here IMO.

 

[bluesneakers]

I don't think it's appropriate for us to be speculating on that type of thing nor is it appropriate for us to throw Alden Olsen in the picture and compare him with John Smith who has done some actual research. We can go on about this but like I said I don't believe men would be acting any different if Maura happened to be a man. With that being said, there are idiots everywhere. I'm a man myself and when I go into missing person cases, I don't go into them thinking : "Geez, if only I can help solve a mystery that involves a beautiful teenage girl". You see what I mean, I don't pick my interest in a case based on the gender of the missing person and I honestly want to believe that most men also don't choose based on gender.

Do you know of any missing persons cases involving young men that have gotten so much attention?

IMO the combination Maura's vulnerability (many things) and her toughness (athletic, West Point) draws a particular set of fans. She's a damsel who needs to be rescued, but after that she's admirable and strong. Something about the two sides together make her more interesting and desirable than other women who go missing.

JMO

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Do you know of any missing persons cases involving young men that have gotten so much attention?

Zeb Quinn comes to mind, as does Neo Babson Maximus, but obviously, neither one of those cases attracts the same contingent of paternal obsessives as Maura's does.

 

[Tarik]

Do you know of any missing persons cases involving young men that have gotten so much attention?

IMO the combination Maura's vulnerability (many things) and her toughness (athletic, West Point) draws a particular set of fans. She's a damsel who needs to be rescued, but after that she's admirable and strong. Something about the two sides together make her more interesting and desirable than other women who go missing.

JMO

A lot of the missing young men on the Disappeared show like Zebb Quinn or Michael Fuksa (before his remains were found) have gotten a lot of attention over the years. There are probably a lot more, I can't think of any right now but keep in mind that women are generally more likely to go missing than men, at least that's how it is in the US and Canada. The reason why the Maura Murray case has been getting so much attention is not because Maura is a woman. It's because the circumstances surrounding her disappearance are incredibly mysterious and unprecedented. I'm sorry but I'm not buying this extremely dogmatic idea that people care more when a young teenage girl goes missing than when a young teenage guy goes missing. There are several factors that come into play that need to be taken into account to explain why some cases get more attention than others (the race of the missing person, their past, their social circle etc.) but I don't believe gender is one. It's all well explained here : http://www.wlwt.com/news/Examining-...cases-get-more-attention-than-others/26216258

 

[bluesneakers]

A lot of the missing young men on the Disappeared show like Zebb Quinn or Michael Fuksa (before his remains were found) have gotten a lot of attention over the years. There are probably a lot more, I can't think of any right now but keep in mind that women are generally more likely to go missing than men, at least that's how it is in the US and Canada. The reason why the Maura Murray case has been getting so much attention is not because Maura is a woman. It's because the circumstances surrounding her disappearance are incredibly mysterious and unprecedented. I'm sorry but I'm not buying this extremely dogmatic idea that people care more when a young teenage girl goes missing than when a young teenage guy goes missing. There are several factors that come into play that need to be taken into account to explain why some cases get more attention than others (the race of the missing person, their past, their social circle etc.) but I don't believe gender is one. It's all well explained here : http://www.wlwt.com/news/Examining-...cases-get-more-attention-than-others/26216258

Thank you for the link.

However much attention Murray's case gets there's no denying the presence of obsessive men who imagine they have a connection to her, who want to save her, and feel possessive of her and her story, in some cases as if it's their story to tell.

 

[bluesneakers]

I wish it werent true, but unfortunately gender and race *do* play a role in the media attention/public response given to missing people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome

It seems that attractive, young, white women DO get the most media coverage/public interest and society really needs to ask ourselves why this is. There is a very specific gender/race dynamic going on here IMO.

Yes and yes. Thank you.

Moody, Dorris and Blackwell (2008)[8] concluded that in addition to race and class, factors such as supposed attractiveness, body size and youthfulness function as unfair criteria in the determination of newsworthiness in coverage of missing women. Also noteworthy is coverage of missing Black women was more likely to focus on the victim’s baggage such as her abusive boyfriend or troubled past, while coverage of white victims might focus on her role as a mother or daughter.

Kym Pasqualini, president of the National Center for Missing Adults, observed that media outlets tend to focus on "damsels in distress" – typically, affluent young white women and teenagers.[12]
Dr. Cory L. Armstrong wrote in the Washington Post that "the pattern of choosing only young, white, middle-class women for the full damsel treatment says a lot about a nation that likes to believe it has consigned race and class to irrelevance".

 

[bluesneakers]

Double post.

 

[Fireweed]

Great posts everyone! I want to make clear that I do not think most of these males have a level of creepiness like Olsen. Indeed I do not think they are creeps at all. The reason I bring it up is because I have noticed that they are very forceful in shutting down conversations and discussions about this case that do not form with their own fantasy about who they think Maura was.

Just an example I can think of is that some of the older guys who post here cannot wrap their heads around the fact that Maura may have owned clothes that her family did not know about, or that she could have had friends or lovers that her family did not know about.

I know that this fact gives me zero credibility to them but here it goes again: I am the same age as Maura and I used to be a 21 year old college student. Now granted a 21 year old is young and not fully formed, but I was an adult then. Did I rely on my parents for help and guidance still? Yes of course. But I had my own life separate and apart from them. I had interests, friends, lovers, passions, bad times, heartaches that I did not discuss with them.

I think so much of this can be summed up by the photo gracing the front page of Renner's blog. It is Maura's high school graduation photo. I know that to someone in their 30's and 40's, three years ago feels like yesterday, but when you are 21 you feel so far removed from high school. It feels like another lifetime ago. Maura was not a teenager living under her father's thumb when she disappeared; she was a grown adult woman (no, not a girl), who had her own life going.

 

[Lolacat]

The reason I bring it up is because I have noticed that they are very forceful in shutting down conversations and discussions about this case that do not form with their own fantasy about who they think Maura was.

Exactly. Another example of this was on the podcast/and blog when there was endless speculation about the items Maura had in her car. All the speculators were men (all at least a decade older than maura was at the time she went missing) talking about what kind of person this made Maura. Stating ludicrous things like, Maura had a bottle of Head and Shoulders with her- that MUST mean she was meeting a man because women dont use Head and Shoulders or, that it was inconceivable that a woman might take more than 2 bottles of shampoo with her on a trip somewhere. (I must be a freak of nature then because when I went on holiday last year, I took 4 bottles! *gasp*). After that, quite a few women responded that they too used head and shoulders, only to be somewhat dismissed by the same people who insisted no women would ever use it. Um, how would they know? they arent a 21 year old woman!
I'm NOT saying that in order to have an opinion on a case you have to be the exact same age or gender as the missing person, please dont misunderstand me. All I'm saying is, its very very frustrating when a case like this is so dominated by men that they seem incapable of listening to a female perspective on the matter. There have been what, 21 episodes of the podcast so far and only one has featured a woman. Two if you include the psychic lady.....I'm sorry but that doesnt sound very *balanced* to me.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

I'm NOT saying that in order to have an opinion on a case you have to be the exact same age or gender as the missing person, please dont misunderstand me. All I'm saying is, its very very frustrating when a case like this is so dominated by men that they seem incapable of listening to a female perspective on the matter.

Couldn't agree more. A little bit of empathy goes a long way and so far, we've not seen nearly enough of it from the loudest voices in this case.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

It's really interesting reading the posts about the interest of males in this case. I wonder if part of it is due to the "Maura is still alive" being a theory? And not "She's being held" but she's living a new life? So these guys don't feel like they are obsessing over a dead girl, but over someone who could still be alive? I also wonder if Maura being a pretty girl, but in an attainable way, plays a role too?