NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 4
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This has always bothered me too.nnglas said:
I have talked with people who know Maura well and know her running habits.
None of them seem to think she would have taken the alcohol. I know I can't imagine anyone taking the alcohol:
Consider, the alcohol is in bottles. She had a small to medium size backpack which would have made it impossible to wrap the bottles to protect them and still get them into the backpack.
Is any intelligent person going to risk carrying bottles of alcohol on their back in 30 degree weather. The backpack was not plastic lined. It was just nylon, so the alcohol would have soaked Maura IF the bottles broke.
Maura was very strong physically and had amazing upper body strength - this according to those who have known her since childhood and is the result of her years of athletic training and long distant running - Wouldn't she have known it would be much wiser to throw the bottles into the forest or even the weeds. I have seen photos of the area and all is not densely wooded if she were afraid of hitting the trees.
This leaves me to speculate one of two things based on fact:
It is a fact that Maura purchased alcohol in a store near Campus.
IF she took it with her when she left UMass (and it is my opinion that she probably did because I read that she used Bailey's Irish Creme in her coffee and that she liked Black Russians which are made with Vodka and Kolua (sp) - these items along with the box of wine reported in the media is what she purchased) then perhaps one of LE, the tow truck driver, or fire or ems responders absconded with it.........
OR perhaps my opinion is wrong and she purchased the alcohol for someone before she left Amherst and she never took it. For the reason above, I think this least likely.
These are the only two possibilities that make sense to me.
........also, I feel quite confident that she did not throw it into the field or woods. Her father, numerous other family members, the Rausches and mutual friends of the Billy and Maura were there looking for her; they went into the woods, the fields, waded through snow banks, etc. I know for certain they never found any of the alcohol or the containers.
Even considering there was a bookstore in NH that would buy back her books, what would her purpose be in taking her new class notebooks, folders and syllabus?czechmate7 said:
These items were packed in a separate bag - there were two other bags: the one with her clothing for just a few days, personal items, favorite stuffed monkey from the boyfriend and jewelry; and the one with her 2 changes of running clothes.
These are facts - it just is not logical to me that she would take the class assignments with her IF she did not intend on completing them.
...........I have enjoyed these later posts tonight and wish that we could have more of them.
Using the advice that I would almost bet that all of our mothers taugth tus, perhaps we should make a rule for this thread: If you can't say something nice about the post(er) then don't say anything at all.
I am not meaning that there is no room for disagreement, but to disagree does not mean we have to attack or even to go on the defensive IF someone attacks us.
.........so g'night all !
czechmate7
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:truce: What has drawn me to Maura's case wasn't the fact that she was just another missing person. This case has lots of unknown factors and elements to discuss and explore. She wasn't a missing who was driving down the road one day, got into an accident and never was heard from again. There were several events prior that I felt may have contributed to this possibly being someone who needed to find herself. In words of another poster, the case seemed "sexy".
As I started to read articles and gain info from other posters thoughts and ideas began to circulate in my mind. I felt it important to try to bring out as much *factual* what and why as possible.
Every discussion that I have speculated about has been shot down by *pure speculation*. Most of the time the facts regarding the idea or event that I have tried to discuss can not even be brought out due to speculation of some posters.
I have become very tired of this case because of it. It is clear that until otherwise known some will look at this case with a "glass half full" approach and others with a "glass half empty". I have chosen not to look at all. I wish I can say I have enjoyed posting her, but my resolve is tired and drained..I can see why certain posters have left this thread in the past.
I will no longer be posting on this thread, but I do hope Maura is well and/or the family finds peace with her in the future.
As I started to read articles and gain info from other posters thoughts and ideas began to circulate in my mind. I felt it important to try to bring out as much *factual* what and why as possible.
Every discussion that I have speculated about has been shot down by *pure speculation*. Most of the time the facts regarding the idea or event that I have tried to discuss can not even be brought out due to speculation of some posters.
I have become very tired of this case because of it. It is clear that until otherwise known some will look at this case with a "glass half full" approach and others with a "glass half empty". I have chosen not to look at all. I wish I can say I have enjoyed posting her, but my resolve is tired and drained..I can see why certain posters have left this thread in the past.
I will no longer be posting on this thread, but I do hope Maura is well and/or the family finds peace with her in the future.
Why does everyone have to be so hateful? Life is too short for that. We are all just human. None of us knows everything. Maura is a beautiful young girl and looks to be so full of life. I think that touches us all. Everyone here is entitled to his/her opinion. None of us like to be looked down upon with a condescending attitude either. We all wonder; we all have questions. How can any one of us be "right" because the fact is that not a single one of us have any idea what happened to that girl.
I can't imagine for the life of me how I could carry on if I had no idea what had happened to one of my children. I think that is part of the reason that I am so drawn to these forums. There is enough hatred and meanness in the world already, can't we avoid it in here where we are all trying to acheive the same thing?
Truce? Peace?
I can't imagine for the life of me how I could carry on if I had no idea what had happened to one of my children. I think that is part of the reason that I am so drawn to these forums. There is enough hatred and meanness in the world already, can't we avoid it in here where we are all trying to acheive the same thing?
Truce? Peace?
MagicRose99
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Oh darn! You mean we aren't going to explore the alien abduction theme?!?! LOL!
And you are absolutely correct! What I believe may be outrageous but very plausible to you... and worth checking out! Thanks Doc!
And you are absolutely correct! What I believe may be outrageous but very plausible to you... and worth checking out! Thanks Doc!
docwho3 said:
natasha-cupcake
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I would hate to see you leave this forum. I have found your posts to be interesting and your logic sound. I have followed this case for a long time, but sometimes fear to post. I don't want to risk offending anyone, but unfortunately, to get at the truth, a lot of hard questions must be asked. I'm sure, that Maura, wherever she is, would be mortified to know that absolute strangers are dissecting her life. For my part in that, I apologize. I also apologize to close friends and family, for the anguish they are going through, based on things written and discussed here. I also feel strongly, that (with the possible exception of one poster) no one on this board has ever been intentionally disrespectful, nasty, hateful, or vicious, in any way, shape or form. With that in mind, and with all due respect, some of us are definitely blurring fact and speculation. Speculation is good because this is a MYSTERY. Speculation does not hurt. But speculation posing as fact is counterproductive and only serves to cut off discussion and hence, the possibility of solving the mystery. Here are a few examples that come to mind:czechmate7 said:
Fact #1- Maura had her school books, folders and syllabus with her in her car.
Speculation-She wasn't running away because why would she take her books with her if she wasn't planning on returning.
Speculation masquerading as fact-She intended to return to UMASS because her books/folders/syllabus were in the car.
Alternate theory-Maura took her books/folders/syllabus because she wanted to continue studying nursing somewhere else. She may have been perfectly happy with nursing as a career decision and may STILL have had issues severe enough to want to escape family and friends and start a new life somewhere else. Although, the books and course syllabus were UMASS's idea of nursing preparation, they certainly would be useful for Maura to use in succeeding in any other college's nursing program. Maybe she knew it might be awhile before she could enroll somewhere else, given identity issues. Maybe she wanted to stay as current as possible. She may also have left with the intention of coming back. IF she did not commit suicide, succumb to the elements or meet with foul play, then she must have ended up somewhere and must have started a new life. IF that's what happened, then she may have made the decision not to return to her old life at ANY point along the way. Does this make sense? Maybe, maybe not, but it is an alternative theory that is entirely plausible and does fit the known facts. It can certainly be debated. Debate would bring about the strengths and weaknesses in the argument.
Fact #2-Maura made several attempts to contact Lt Rausch-(Maura calls Lt Rausch on 2/8 4:49AM and speaks to him; emails him 2/9 around 1:00PM; calls him from cellphone 2/9 2:18PM, presumably leaves a message). She speaks to her dad on 2/8 at 11:26PM. She does not indicate whatsoever, to either one of them, that she is leaving for a trip.
Speculation--"...it is logical that she would not leave a message of her plans for her dad or her boyfriend out of consideration that for them to receive such a message would create concern and possibly panic..."
Speculation masquerading as fact- She could not have contacted her dad because of his job restraints. She would never leave Lt Rausch, she talked about marrying him and having his children all the time and she made numerous attempts to contact him the day she disappeared.
Alternate theory-Maybe she did not want to speak to her dad. If she wanted to tell him that she was going away, she could have easily left him a cell phone message for him to retrieve outside of work. She did not have to tell him that she was traveling in the unsafe car. She could have easily left a reassuring message, if this was a situation of just needing to get away for a few days. As far as Lt Rausch was concerned, she could have been trying to contact him to tell him that she no longer wanted to be exclusive with him, that she needed time to herself to think things through, or that she had second thoughts about their relationship, or that they simply needed to see each other to talk. She also, may have been trying to contact him to buy time for herself. She was distraught on the phone with him on the 2/8 4:49AM phone call. She may have wanted to reassure him that she was okay, but may not have had any intention of telling him she was leaving on either a permanent or temporary basis. It's a fact that she tried to contact him. There is NO way to know what she wanted to say to him. She was 21 years old at the time. Even if she had intentions of marry him, she had every right to question her decision and/or change her mind. Her past history with him is not necessarily predictive of her future feelings. Women, especially those in their early twenties, can change their minds about long term committments. I have no doubt that she loved him and wanted nothing more than to marry him and have his children. But I also do not find it impossible that she could have changed her mind. Every one agrees that there was something huge bothering Maura before she left. I believe that even Lt Rausch felt that she was upset about something else besides the first accident when she spoke to him in the hysterical phone call (please correct me if I'm wrong). Could relationship doubt have caused this huge upset? Of course it could. Again, this alternate theory is entirely plausible and fits the known facts.
Just so we are all clear-- I am still extremely undecided about what I think happened to her. I think a lot of the theories presented on this board are plausible. Some seem like a real stretch to me, but I do not discount anything. I think about this case a lot and wish some kind of resolution could come about for the sake of Maura and her family. If she met with foul play, I would like to see justice. If she committed suicide or succumbed to the elements, I'd like to see her family put her to rest with a proper burial. And if she is alive out there somewhere I hope she finds it in her heart to contact her family and loved ones and deliver them from torment and limbo.
Peabody,
having grown up as a young person in rural central Ohio, and also having been in Ft Sill as an Army draftee at age 23 in 1971, I have mixed feelings about your post above--both places have their charms, pigs and cows and corn in Ohio while there are buffalo only a few miles outside Lawton!
The best word to me in all the postings of the last few days is "mystery."
Alas that is what Maura's disappearance still is, without anything definitive or any breakthrough as in Brooke Willberger's case, without any body, without any indication of what happened to her after 2/9/04 except the unexplained and still controversial call to Lt Rausch's cellphone on 2/11/04.
having grown up as a young person in rural central Ohio, and also having been in Ft Sill as an Army draftee at age 23 in 1971, I have mixed feelings about your post above--both places have their charms, pigs and cows and corn in Ohio while there are buffalo only a few miles outside Lawton!
The best word to me in all the postings of the last few days is "mystery."
Alas that is what Maura's disappearance still is, without anything definitive or any breakthrough as in Brooke Willberger's case, without any body, without any indication of what happened to her after 2/9/04 except the unexplained and still controversial call to Lt Rausch's cellphone on 2/11/04.
mocity
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Armywife - Don't let them run you off. I found your posts to be informational. You are allowed to have your opinons just as they are. They said they won't reply to you so you can post freely. Just because you have a different opinion than them doesn't mean you are wrong. The FACT here is that NO ONE really knows what happened. HOpefully, we are all hoping for the best outcome.
I want to point out one thing in regard to her schoolbooks. Many universities are now linked through a system which enables them to track textbooks. The reason for this is because, unfortunately, some people go to libraries, gym, even the bookstore, steal books and then resell them. When I was in school I worked at the book store and the libary and this was a common occurence. My university joined this program with other universities that allowed them to track which books were being resold. Sometimes it could even tell if that student was supposed to have that book according to the classes he/she was taking. I remember 2 different occasions where students got busted selling back student textbooks. One was caught at NYU and another was caught at UCONN. Long story short, I think if Maura attempted to sell back her books they could have been easily traced back to her. IMO (speculation obviously) she was either taking them because she intended to study and return back to UMASS (which I believe) or she took them to start a new life and continue studying the same subject at another university.
Those here are adults and seem more than bright enough to have taken time to read the case themselves. Links to info have been posted so I won't go way out of my way to say which of my sentences in this are speculation and which are facts as it takes too much time and effort and detracts from the overall reading. I respect that our posters are intelligent enough to read the case.Peabody said:
Possibilities: Why alcohol? When I was 21 or 22 yrs. of age sometimes alcohol was bought to use to repay someone for a favor. It would seem possible from news reports that Maura had become a more than moderate drinker. Many college age people do that for a part of their lives. And someone else pointed out to me that she may have been celebrating her new freedom. I had speculated her needing liquid courage in leaving. If she really wanted to use it with the tylenol to suicide the alcohol was a necessary part of that. She had just had a wreck. She had probably been drinking, probably with a cup in a cupholder on the door as evidenced by the spill on the door which has been posted about elsewhere. She probably had not been wearing a seatbelt (lots of young adults don't like to wear them especially when they go through that "I'm being independant" stage) and so she hit her head on the windshield. (We know something hit the windshield and spidered it although there is some dispute as to where on the windshield the impact took place and that could change whether it was human or object that hit the windshield.) Then she had just had a wreck and probably had a headache from hitting the windshield and maybe was a bit wobbly from drinking. Due to the time, 7 to 7:30 pm in February, it was seemingly after dark although news reports are written without making real mention of this fact. She knew the police were likely on the way as she had spoken to the bus driver and knew he would likely call it in even though she had asked him not to do so.
If she had a helper it might explain why this person never came forward later, a random stranger would likely have reported picking her up since he/she would have no real reason to keep silent. If she was going to make good on her getaway she needed to leave right away. She grabbed up her backpack and took off down the road towards her oncoming helper.
I can't really see her going off as a woman alone in the dark down what has been reported as a very very dark road that she was unfamiliar with and that sort of was off the beaten path and trust that a car bearing a kind stranger would happen by so I think she had a helper and I have other reasons for thinking so as laid out in previous posts. No, I think she was dizzy and had a headache and was aggravated and had to hurry or not make her getaway and so she grabbed up that backpack with what was in it or maybe added a bottle or two or three and took off down the road to meet her helper and her destiny.
Info about the case:
For new readers: there is a post with links to info about the history of this case at:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1005656&postcount=38
For new readers: there is a post with links to info about the history of this case at:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1005656&postcount=38
armywife210
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Hey now, I live right on the east side of Lawton... still very much in town... I see buffalo on the way home every day! hehe, right across from the school my little girls go to! I suppose Lawton has grown up quite a bit... and expanded OUT where it used to be OUTSIDE of town! We are only about 7 minutes from base...hydemi said:
armywife210
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Thank you so much for the support. This job that has been asked of me is not an easy one for me at all. It is difficult for me to see people whom I have come to love torn down...mocity said:
I, too, agree that all angles can and should be discussed. I, too, believe that everyone has a right to their own opinions. That is what this country is about, and that is why my husband is out fighting for our freedom.
I, too, hope and pray for Maura's safety every day... more than once. I pray for peace for the family. I pray for answers. I pray for Billy most of all because I know of his love for Maura, and I know he needs answers. I know that he has not moved on.
I just want to make sure that the what if's are clearly stated as such.
If I, in any way, have posted my theories and thoughts as fact I am sorry. I will most definately be more careful about that.
I will be more careful not to offend anyone. I am not a "snippy" person. I am just a PTA, Sunday School mom/ Officer's wife who loves people and life. Quite frankly I am just worn down. I walked away from this forum a couple of times, and was asked to come back on behalf of those that love Maura. I did it because I have truly come to love these people, and Maura.
I just feel attacked for my position every time I come back. I feel attack on Maura's family, and on the Rausches, and even on Maura herself.
Again, I sincerely apologize if I have come off as less than polite... and I know I have.
armywife210
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I have often thought that the alcohol just fit weird in any scenerio..... which has often made me kick around the idea that it was just part of some weird set up... taken from her car to make it look like she just took it with... maybe someone might have sloshed the wine around a bit in the car to make it appear like something it wasn't.
Or perhaps after the accident she put it in her backpack to move it to the trunk.. as to make it appear a bit better for herself. It didnt mean she was drunk, she just thought it might appear better in the trunk. Then perhaps she never made it to the trunk. Backing up... as she was putting the alcohol in her backpack to move it to the trunk the wine box flung out of her hand. Those darn things aren't easy to open at all unless one was to drop it (past experience) or it flew out of ones hands while hastily tossing things in her backpack.
Just a couple of things I have thought about.
Or perhaps after the accident she put it in her backpack to move it to the trunk.. as to make it appear a bit better for herself. It didnt mean she was drunk, she just thought it might appear better in the trunk. Then perhaps she never made it to the trunk. Backing up... as she was putting the alcohol in her backpack to move it to the trunk the wine box flung out of her hand. Those darn things aren't easy to open at all unless one was to drop it (past experience) or it flew out of ones hands while hastily tossing things in her backpack.
Just a couple of things I have thought about.
armywife210
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docwho I sincerely hope and pray that you are right.
Maura may be alive, she may be dead, and so I puzzle over the thought that anyone would choose to leave or join this board with so much mystery and so much uncertainty and so few rock-hard facts in her disappearance.
I have enjoyed more the wider range and scope of opinion on this board, I admit, than the "crime lab" approach on the Maura site (presumes there was a crime) but have also appreciated the greater level of knowledge and detail on the Maura site.
And Peabody among others connected with the family in several ways has kept us grounded in detail at least when she can fill in known details for us like Maura and Mr. Murray completing (not purchasing) the car shopping on 2/8/04.
Perhaps some are impatient with the lack of resolution,so few answers--if we feel this way imagine how family members feel after two years of loss.
I have enjoyed more the wider range and scope of opinion on this board, I admit, than the "crime lab" approach on the Maura site (presumes there was a crime) but have also appreciated the greater level of knowledge and detail on the Maura site.
And Peabody among others connected with the family in several ways has kept us grounded in detail at least when she can fill in known details for us like Maura and Mr. Murray completing (not purchasing) the car shopping on 2/8/04.
Perhaps some are impatient with the lack of resolution,so few answers--if we feel this way imagine how family members feel after two years of loss.
What I find incredibly frustrating, is that we are trying to figure out what
happened to Maura, when the Police are clearly not releasing all of the
evidence and facts. Surely they know more than we do, so how can any
of us support a particular theory without knowing all the facts.
I still feel that LE should release EVEYTHING they know to the parents.
I don't mean to make it public, but let the family in on things, as they
have been suffering for over 2 years.
LE knows MUCH more than they're saying, and I just don't understand
why the secrecy.
happened to Maura, when the Police are clearly not releasing all of the
evidence and facts. Surely they know more than we do, so how can any
of us support a particular theory without knowing all the facts.
I still feel that LE should release EVEYTHING they know to the parents.
I don't mean to make it public, but let the family in on things, as they
have been suffering for over 2 years.
LE knows MUCH more than they're saying, and I just don't understand
why the secrecy.
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