NM NM - Patty Pritz, 14, & Mattie Restine, 13, Carlsbad, 11 Aug 1961 - #1

[Pecos45]

Pecos, it was my mistake in thinking all five murders took place in Eddy Co. I'm claiming a senior moment here of forgetfulness.

I was questioning whether equal time was spent in collecting evidence on all of them, but it doesn't matter since they didn't happen in the same county.

I know all about senior moments, believe me. And my first thought in this whole terrible case was that there might be some connection between these two murders. But I don't think there was.

I'd really like to know more about the triple murder east of Carlsbad, caliber of weapon etc. Bullets recovered? Does anyone have anything about this crime.

The fact that the two women were taken deep into Lea County before they were shot and neither were apparently sexually assaulted makes me think the killer just wanted to get them far away from where he shot the truck driver and get rid of them ASAP. I see that crime as a sexual assault gone bad.

Didn't it also take place in daylight?

 

[justthinkin]

Did Sunshine 1950 ever find out the location that Deputy Sillas thinks that the girls were picked up from on Church St.? I would be interested in this since I grew up in Carlsbad and I know that when I got my driver's license in 1965 Church St. was the main drag and on a Friday night there would have been one car right after another going up and down Church St. It would have been highly unlikely that the girls could have been pickup without several people seeing it.

That is very interesting, Findert50. How in the devil would ECSO come up with this as plausible unless they decided this was a case of date rape gone bad, and then not actually a date, but suggesting that these girls were picked up, and chose to go with their attacker/s as they would've had to have done if Church St. was a drag with lots of traffic.

 

[Pecos45]

Finder, I doubt VERY seriously there was ever any multi-county meetings about these crimes. So I think your suspicions there are well founded. There would have to be some obvious connection, I think, before the counties would start working together. And working together back then was much more difficult than now with internet and all.

 

[justthinkin]

I know all about senior moments, believe me. And my first thought in this whole terrible case was that there might be some connection between these two murders. But I don't think there was.

I'd really like to know more about the triple murder east of Carlsbad, caliber of weapon etc. Bullets recovered? Does anyone have anything about this crime.

The fact that the two women were taken deep into Lea County before they were shot and neither were apparently sexually assaulted makes me think the killer just wanted to get them far away from where he shot the truck driver and get rid of them ASAP. I see that crime as a sexual assault gone bad.

Didn't it also take place in daylight?

Pecos45, I would've sworn I read they'd been killed with a .22. I also thought this happened at night, but I could be wrong about that. I'm positive one of the articles posted here though said a .22 was used to commit the murders.

I'll try to dig up the article a little later.

 

[Finder50]

I think the newpaper article said they were shot with a 22 Caliber rifle. Also, there were witnesses that were passing on the highway. Man that was shot was a truck driver that saw the women struggling with the killer and stopped to help them and got shot when he got out of his truck according to the newspaper article.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

Did Sunshine 1950 ever find out the location that Deputy Sillas thinks that the girls were picked up from on Church St.? I would be interested in this since I grew up in Carlsbad and I know that when I got my driver's license in 1965 Church St. was the main drag and on a Friday night there would have been one car right after another going up and down Church St. It would have been highly unlikely that the girls could have been pickup without several people seeing it.

Finder 50 Sillas just told me it was on Church St. and there was a store on the corner. SO if that helps...hope so. My family moved from Carlsbad in 1965. But I don't remember the area that well. My parents never let me out of the house let alone go cruising up and down the street. They took me to school and picked me up...then we weren't allowed out after we got home. Sure wish I could have gone out and learned what was going on back then.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

The one observation that I have on the whole investigative process in this case is that there was too many fingers in the pie from the get go. There was the retired FBI Agent, New Mexico State Police, Carlsbad City Police, and the ECSO but there doesn't seem to have been one single agency that was coordinating the entire investigation. This is evidenced from fact that Estrada having to contact the NM State Police to get some of the evidence that they had collected. There is no telling what evidence that other agencies might have.

You're right about that Finder50. When I contacted the Carlsbad City Police the detective there: Mike Hill I believe...said he didn't have anything in his files or the department. I couldn't believe it! I sent him copies of all the newspaper articles I had...but never heard a word from him.

 

[Jan1966]

Finally I am able to post on this site. Thank you to the administration of the site. I have a couple of thoughts that I want to run by you. The reports say that Mattie was walked from the car to where she was shot and somewhere it was told that she had run (that is being looked for, it was a statement made at the time). That would seem to mean that the site was the kill site at least for Mattie. Since the bullets were never found it would seem to me that someone had to look for those in daylight. Bonnie says the B's left her house after midnight to head for Texas but noone knows for sure that is where they went immediately. I want to know more about the car sitting on the road to the kill sight on Saturday morning. Sorry to get this all out at once but I've been waiting awhile to post. I would also be interested in any other unsolved crimes that were committed in the areas that the suspects were living that might be like these.

 

[Jan1966]

There were two grocery stores on church and one place to buy snowcones etc. The first was at the NW corner of church and Park Drive just leaving the beach. The second was at the NW corner of Main and Church, a small grocery store called Tefteller's. The third was a grocery store at the SW corner of Canal and Church St. There is a gas station there currently and I believe a flower shop and a couple of other businesses. On the corner where Taco Bell was (I don't know what it is now) there was a gas station called Cliff's. Cliff's was kind of a hangout for the 16 to 25 (or older) guys that were into cars. If they were picked up at Tefteller's (about half way between the beach and Canal St.) they may not have been seen by anyone, it wasn't as busy there. I believe there was also a grocery store across the street from the arrowhead drive-in on the NE corner of Church and Mesquite but I'm not sure about the time frame.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

DOes anyone remember a place where the teenagers and maybe older adults...maybe in their 20's hung out and drank? Some place like "the Pit" Some one made mention of that on another forum...I don't know much about "the Pit" but maybe someone from Carlsbad could share about how long that place has been popular.

 

[Jan1966]

I don't know of a "pit." There was a place called Higby Hole, I think it is on the highway towards Hobbs. There was also a place called Werewolf Hill that everyone went to. I believe that it is out toward "Happy Valley". Which would be the old road that is now the truck by pass toward "Sitting Bull Falls." I really can't remember but maybe someone else that grew up in Carlsbad might remember. There was also Lake Avalon out by La Huerta. I think it was probably the most popular spot.

 

[fish1966]

Higby Hole is off the hiway to the right when leaving Loving on the way to Pecos. The "pit" as I understand is like a scooped out side of a hill. I don't know where it is but my I can find out if you need to know. Werewolf Hill is one of the east-west roads through Happy Valley that goes up in the hills to the west of Happy Valley. The road that goes to Sitting Bull Falls is road 137 that is were the girls were found. Not the same road as the truck bypass from 285 to Happy Valley.

 

[justthinkin]

I wonder if someone over in the Carlsbad area can go out to the crime scene site with a metal detector to see what might be found after first obtaining permission from the land owner?

Does anyone know if this has ever been done?

 

[Sunshine 1950]

Higby Hole is off the hiway to the right when leaving Loving on the way to Pecos. The "pit" as I understand is like a scooped out side of a hill. I don't know where it is but my I can find out if you need to know. Werewolf Hill is one of the east-west roads through Happy Valley that goes up in the hills to the west of Happy Valley. The road that goes to Sitting Bull Falls is road 137 that is were the girls were found. Not the same road as the truck bypass from 285 to Happy Valley.

Thanks fish1966 I just needed to know where it was at. I received a message that the girls my have been at "the pit." I just didn't know where it was at or had I ever heard of that place before. Was that a popular place for the teenagers to hang out in the 60's?

 

[Pecos45]

I wonder if someone over in the Carlsbad area can go out to the crime scene site with a metal detector to see what might be found after first obtaining permission from the land owner?

Does anyone know if this has ever been done?

JT, I think Finder said something about he might try to get back out and do some metal detecting.

But there are three problems with this.

1. The bullets passed through both girls and at different angles. As they were apparently shot with a 38 cal pistol, I would expect the bullets to travel about 200 yards beyond where the bodies were found. This to me suggests the area to metal detect could amount to about 5 acres. To cover every inch of that is an enormous assignment for one guy.

2. Lead decomposes with time and the elements. Whatever bullets you mind find with the above effort, IMHO, would be ballistically useless.

3. Even if bullets were found and in pristine shape, without a murder weapon to compare them to, again such a find would be ballistically useless.

I don't mean to sound negative but I won't kid anyone about what we may and may not achieve with such activities.

If Finder has the time and energy to devote to such a project, whatever he finds can't hurt.

 

[justthinkin]

Pecos45, you really know how to let the air out of someone's tires.

Sigh....

 

[Pecos45]

I don't mean to, JT. Honest that isn't my intent. But a few years ago I was out north of Seven River's Hills at what I believe is an old Butterfield Stage Coach house and I found a 44 cal bullet. I'm enough of a gun nut to know it was NOT from the old days but a fairly recent cast bullet slug. I still have it in fact. And sadly it is so eroded that I would be AMAZED if it had any ballistic value...at least for what we are trying to do.

My purpose with what might seem to be deflating comments is to keep us focused on what's real and what's wishful thinking.

Would you rather I lie to you?

 

[justthinkin]

I don't mean to, JT. Honest that isn't my intent. But a few years ago I was out north of Seven River's Hills at what I believe is an old Butterfield Stage Coach house and I found a 44 cal bullet. I'm enough of a gun nut to know it was NOT from the old days but a fairly recent cast bullet slug. I still have it in fact. And sadly it is so eroded that I would be AMAZED if it had any ballistic value...at least for what we are trying to do.

My purpose with what might seem to be deflating comments is to keep us focused on what's real and what's wishful thinking.

Would you rather I lie to you?

Oh heck no, not in a million years. I don't have a problem with anything you've said, but don't you think if a spent bullet or musket ball was found we might inch a bit closer to the truth if it could be tied to the correct time period?

 

[Pecos45]

JT, I think I should stop commenting. The last thing I want to do is discourage anything POSITIVE that might be done in this case. I get very frustrated looking at it and thinking about it.

Perhaps sometimes that frustration shows in my posts.
As an ex-LEO and life long student of crime and how the system works to prevent and punish it, perhaps I see things differently than many members. This is probably another reason I should just shut up and go away.

It just seems that many here don't understand how "the chain" of evidence really works. And it would take a very lengthy post to explain it all. (Not that I hold myself up as an expert on the subject!!!) Most is just common sense if you think about it.

Whatever we find, we will have to ultimately connect all the dots to a person and place him AT the crime scene the night of the murders.

I asked a friend who IS a real live detective to review this case. His conclusion: Without some DNA evidence........... You fill in the blanks.
I asked a chemical engineer friend of mine to research for some DNA angle that might give us a hope. So far I haven't heard anything.

Complicating this whole case is the investigating arm at the time, ECSO, didn't know enough about DNA in 1961 to spell the word correctly. If there was any such evidence, they blew it.

The only hope I see of recovering this fumble would be to exhume Patty, since maybe she was raped, and TRY to find some DNA evidence.

All the TV shows we watch about the wonderful crime solving abilities of DNA evidence hinge on having some DNA...which we don't. And 49 years after this terrible crime, most of the characters in this drama are either dead or dying like flies.

Anyway, I'll shut-up. I'd love to see this case resolved whether the killer is alive or not. I don't want to contaminate anyone with my own despair and frustrations. If I have made ANY comment on any subject that is factually incorrect, I hope someone will step forward and correct it. My feelings will not be hurt.

Now, I want to leave the group with something that has been troubling me for several weeks.

We are led to believe from the autopsy report that Patty and Mattie were shot with a 38. (Most of which are actually .35 caliber) But this judgment as to the caliber of murder weapon is what bothers me. A few months ago I was watching some TV show...some actual FBI case as I recall. During the autopsy of a murder victim, who was shot in the head, the pathologist stated: "It's difficult to judge the caliber of a weapon just from the bullet wound."

Were Patty and Mattie REALLY shot by a 38 (or 35 caliber weapon)? Just because the entrance wound was about this caliber, does that guarantee us this was the caliber of weapon?

I don't know the answer to these questions. But I do know that bullets are funny creatures and depending on size, shape, velocity, angle, construction and the resistance of what they strike...bullets do some funny things.

I wish we had someone with the medical knowledge here to answer this question. Until that time, I would view any caliber bullet near the crime scene as suspect.

Anyway......good luck.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

JT, I think I should stop commenting. The last thing I want to do is discourage anything POSITIVE that might be done in this case. I get very frustrated looking at it and thinking about it.

Perhaps sometimes that frustration shows in my posts.
As an ex-LEO and life long student of crime and how the system works to prevent and punish it, perhaps I see things differently than many members. This is probably another reason I should just shut up and go away.

It just seems that many here don't understand how "the chain" of evidence really works. And it would take a very lengthy post to explain it all. (Not that I hold myself up as an expert on the subject!!!) Most is just common sense if you think about it.

Whatever we find, we will have to ultimately connect all the dots to a person and place him AT the crime scene the night of the murders.

I asked a friend who IS a real live detective to review this case. His conclusion: Without some DNA evidence........... You fill in the blanks.
I asked a chemical engineer friend of mine to research for some DNA angle that might give us a hope. So far I haven't heard anything.

Complicating this whole case is the investigating arm at the time, ECSO, didn't know enough about DNA in 1961 to spell the word correctly. If there was any such evidence, they blew it.

The only hope I see of recovering this fumble would be to exhume Patty, since maybe she was raped, and TRY to find some DNA evidence.

All the TV shows we watch about the wonderful crime solving abilities of DNA evidence hinge on having some DNA...which we don't. And 49 years after this terrible crime, most of the characters in this drama are either dead or dying like flies.

Anyway, I'll shut-up. I'd love to see this case resolved whether the killer is alive or not. I don't want to contaminate anyone with my own despair and frustrations. If I have made ANY comment on any subject that is factually incorrect, I hope someone will step forward and correct it. My feelings will not be hurt.

Now, I want to leave the group with something that has been troubling me for several weeks.

We are led to believe from the autopsy report that Patty and Mattie were shot with a 38. (Most of which are actually .35 caliber) But this judgment as to the caliber of murder weapon is what bothers me. A few months ago I was watching some TV show...some actual FBI case as I recall. During the autopsy of a murder victim, who was shot in the head, the pathologist stated: "It's difficult to judge the caliber of a weapon just from the bullet wound."

Were Patty and Mattie REALLY shot by a 38 (or 35 caliber weapon)? Just because the entrance wound was about this caliber, does that guarantee us this was the caliber of weapon?

I don't know the answer to these questions. But I do know that bullets are funny creatures and depending on size, shape, velocity, angle, construction and the resistance of what they strike...bullets do some funny things.

I wish we had someone with the medical knowledge here to answer this question. Until that time, I would view any caliber bullet near the crime scene as suspect.

Anyway......good luck.

Pecos you and I have had many conversations about this case and I for one DO NOT want you to leave this forum. YOu may get on people's nerves...but that's okay. We all have our own faults. Mine is ignorance of the way the law works. You have helped me with some of that. And "yes" you have stepped on peoples toes by stating you didn't agree with them...but that is okay as well. You are experienced in what the law is and you were around when this case was fresh...which really helps with knowing how things were back then.
So please don't leave this forum.
Believe it you have helped me with more than acceptance of what will not happen....and I thank you for that.
Anne