No intruder?

[wonderllama]

Could be. Why not? "Hey, So-and-So, we've got a hella crisis here. This is how it happened, but we sure can't let that get out, now can we? Can you help us out? Come right over. Just follow the flickering flashlight to the side door, and I'll let you in. Thanks, good buddy."

As much as I was amused by the term "good buddy" in helping to cover up a murder, I find this a bit unlikely.

I think the only was for the RDI case to stand up is for it not to be RDI + 1.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

As much as I was amused by the term "good buddy" in helping to cover up a murder, I find this a bit unlikely.

I think the only was for the RDI case to stand up is for it not to be RDI + 1.

Granted the scenario would be much more scream- and panic-laden, but I am not the first person to suggest that someone could have come in and helped stage...or restage...for the Rs. I can think of a couple of scenarios leading up to having an outside trusted party come in and help...but I'm not going to throw their names into the mix. My whole point in this particular instance is that the DNA Murri speaks of does not necessarily belong to the killer. There ARE other possibilities.

I'm curious though...why do you think the RDI couldn't stand up if it was RDI plus one?

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Or it could belong to an unknown party who came to the house to help stage the scene before anyone else was called.

Absolutely! That is possible.

But what time would someone have came to the house?-- there was snow outside and not very strong indications someone came to the house.

Would it have been 3 in the morning? Did they park their car away from the neighbourhood to avoid making noise?

 

[wonderllama]

I'm curious though...why do you think the RDI couldn't stand up if it was RDI plus one?

Cover ups are much easier if there are less people involved.
I think (as a killer) you weaken your position if you introduce someone else into the mix and I don't think anyone else would have the same screwed up justification for covering up the killing than the people directly involved.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Cover ups are much easier if there are less people involved.
I think (as a killer) you weaken your position if you introduce someone else into the mix and I don't think anyone else would have the same screwed up justification for covering up the killing than the people directly involved.

They would if they were a "legal" accomplice and not a "personal" one. There are a couple of professions in which had they been called, they would not be able to speak of it LE. Lawyers, doctors, and just maybe a priest. That's 3 right there. At least three different people could have been called. Not saying it happened. I'm theorizing for those who would like to tell me how ridiculous this sounds.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Absolutely! That is possible.

But what time would someone have came to the house?-- there was snow outside and not very strong indications someone came to the house.

Would it have been 3 in the morning? Did they park their car away from the neighbourhood to avoid making noise?

IIRC, there was snow, but only patchy snow. That's one point IDIs like to use when explaining why there were no IDI footprints...so if it works for IDIs, hey, it can work for someone helping stage.

And it wouldn't have to be 3 in the morning. It could have been earlier, and yes, they could have parked elsewhere. Isn't there an alley that runs behind the Ramsey house? Aren't alleys generally used for things like garbage pickup but not regular traffic? In the wee hours, a car could ease along there quietly and not be heard. For that matter: if IDI, they would have had to get to and from the R house in some fashion and would have done so without being seen or heard. So again, why not an assistant to staging?

I'm not married to this idea, but I don't discount it either. Again, it's just another explanation for the "mysterious" touch-DNA and DNA that is presently unaccounted for...by us WSers anyway.

 

[UKGuy]

They would if they were a "legal" accomplice and not a "personal" one. There are a couple of professions in which had they been called, they would not be able to speak of it LE. Lawyers, doctors, and just maybe a priest. That's 3 right there. At least three different people could have been called. Not saying it happened. I'm theorizing for those who would like to tell me how ridiculous this sounds.

joeskidbeck,
I agree with yourself and my_tee_mouse. John might even have recieved advice from some security agency, he was a contracter where his parent company had a specific protocol when crimes are committed.

It looks like MurriFlower is a dna fundamentalist wedded to a monism of IDI.


Still no answer as to what cell type this genetic material is?



.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

IIRC, there was snow, but only patchy snow. That's one point IDIs like to use when explaining why there were no IDI footprints...so if it works for IDIs, hey, it can work for someone helping stage.

And it wouldn't have to be 3 in the morning. It could have been earlier, and yes, they could have parked elsewhere. Isn't there an alley that runs behind the Ramsey house? Aren't alleys generally used for things like garbage pickup but not regular traffic? In the wee hours, a car could ease along there quietly and not be heard. For that matter: if IDI, they would have had to get to and from the R house in some fashion and would have done so without being seen or heard. So again, why not an assistant to staging?

I'm not married to this idea, but I don't discount it either. Again, it's just another explanation for the "mysterious" touch-DNA and DNA that is presently unaccounted for...by us WSers anyway.

I just threw in 3 in the morning as a general point of reference -- basically whoever was called, if they were actually called, would have to come before the 911 call.

If JonBenet died round about midnight, and the 911 call was made a approx 5:52am? then that leaves a window of time for this to happen.

 

[wonderllama]

If someone heard a scream, wouldn't someone hear someone else arriving at the home though?

 

[joeskidbeck]

joeskidbeck,
I agree with yourself and my_tee_mouse. John might even have recieved advice from some security agency, he was a contracter where his parent company had a specific protocol when crimes are committed.

It looks like MurriFlower is a dna fundamentalist wedded to a monism of IDI.


Still no answer as to what cell type this genetic material is?



.

Thanks, UKGuy. One other little point that I find disturbing. If this touch dna is/was so important to this case, I find it hard to believe that they didn't look for it elsewhere at the crime scene. Actually, I find it impossible to believe. Now, had it been anywhere else in the entire home, we would have heard it too many times to mention. We would still be hearing it today by the Ramsey team and those who are committed to IDI. That touch dna didn't show up anywhere else and I feel pretty confindent in saying that.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

If someone heard a scream, wouldn't someone hear someone else arriving at the home though?

A scream is a chilling sound. It makes human-beings take notice. Random noise at night is just that, random noise and so may not be particularly note worthy or noticeable.

There was talk that the neighbours heard a "scraping" noise.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

If someone heard a scream, wouldn't someone hear someone else arriving at the home though?

Or leaving the home if IDI? And there's a big window (as LFB so graciously pointed out above) between the scream and the 911 call, so anyone hearing the scream could have settled back down and been in deep sleep by the time someone came into the house to help stage...especially if they came in through the back way.

It would be more likely that they would still be wide awake when an intruder was leaving than to still be wide awake by the time the Rs would have assessed the situation and gotten help over there, I would think.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Thanks, UKGuy. One other little point that I find disturbing. If this touch dna is/was so important to this case, I find it hard to believe that they didn't look for it elsewhere at the crime scene. Actually, I find it impossible to believe. Now, had it been anywhere else in the entire home, we would have heard it too many times to mention. We would still be hearing today by the Ramsey team and those who are committed to IDI. That touch dna didn't show up anywhere else and I fell pretty confindent in saying that.

I agree. Why did it show up on the items that it did and no-where else.I suppose IDIs will say that clothing is very tactile and people come into close contact with it therefore an intruder may falter and leave dna there.Possible.

But I would say that it is more than probable that the longjohns and underwear came into contact with one another thus the 'dna' found is not necessarily that of an intruder.

If saliva,semen,blood dna was found that changes the complexion of the case entirely.

 

[MurriFlower]

MurriFlower,

Just what is this genetic material is it semen or saliva or sweat or maybe they do not know, do you?

No. I've never read a positive ID on the origin of the panty DNA. It is pure speculation to suggest it was a skin cell from 'touch'. This is discussed here http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682463/DNA-Evidence
without resolution.

You may call it touch DNA if you choose, but regardless, it is just as valuable as DNA from other sources and no more or less liable to be innocently transferred.

 

[UKGuy]

No. I've never read a positive ID on the origin of the panty DNA. It is pure speculation to suggest it was a skin cell from 'touch'. This is discussed here http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682463/DNA-Evidence
without resolution.

You may call it touch DNA if you choose, but regardless, it is just as valuable as DNA from other sources and no more or less liable to be innocently transferred.

MurriFlower,

It is valuable dna. I do not doubt that. Please understand that if you do not know what cell type from which the underwear dna was extracted then others on this board cannot comprehend how you can issue absolute statements regarding the underwear dna?

I do not know precisely the cell type, but I'm willing to bet if it was anything other than touch-dna we would have heard about it by now.

This is the core of the Ramsey defense yet they obscure the dna cell type?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

A scream is a chilling sound. It makes human-beings take notice. Random noise at night is just that, random noise and so may not be particularly note worthy or noticeable.

There was talk that the neighbours heard a "scraping" noise.

The same neighbor that heard the scream was the wife of the man who heard a sound he described as "metal scraping concrete". When the scream woke her up, she then woke her husband (who didn't hear the scream). That's when he heard the metal scraping sound. There were paint cans in the wineceller that could have been the source for that if they were moved out of the way. These can be seen in some crime photos of that room. There was also a large piece of sheet metal, if I recall, on the floor that seemed to have been moved out of the way from the spot were JB was placed.
LFB- if you haven't already, this site http://www.acandyrose.com is an excellent resource on this case (and some others). You have to click on the JonBenet archives to bring up the info. It used to have the police interviews too but they are gone now. All the crime photos available are on there as well as the autopsy report and the few photos that have been circulated publicly. There are also recommendations there of books on the case to read.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

The same neighbor that heard the scream was the wife of the man who heard a sound he described as "metal scraping concrete". When the scream woke her up, she then woke her husband (who didn't hear the scream). That's when he heard the metal scraping sound. There were paint cans in the wineceller that could have been the source for that if they were moved out of the way. These can be seen in some crime photos of that room. There was also a large piece of sheet metal, if I recall, on the floor that seemed to have been moved out of the way from the spot were JB was placed.
LFB- if you haven't already, this site http://www.acandyrose.com is an excellent resource on this case (and some others). You have to click on the JonBenet archives to bring up the info. It used to have the police interviews too but they are gone now. All the crime photos available are on there as well as the autopsy report and the few photos that have been circulated publicly. There are also recommendations there of books on the case to read.

Thanks for the links Dee. I have read that site before but it's obviously a great resource to have.

Regarding the neighbour hearing the sound of metal scraping on the ground, were any tests ever done in the Ramsey basement to see if scraping metal could be heard from outside the house? I know that the police determined that a scream could be heard at the neighbour's house.

Of course, there is less disturbance at night so often sounds become amplified.

 

[DeeDee249]

Not sure if the metal scraping was done. Certainly it could have been- at the time LE entered the house for the scream test, I am not sure if the contents of the house were still there. But it would have been easy enough to bring in few paint cans to move around. I don't think it was done, though.

 

[Cappy]

I'm going to close out the New Year by saying what I've always believed about this case. Actually, I hate to even call it a "case" because this was a little girl...a human being with parents and family who loved her..not simply a "case".

I believe someone got into the Ramsey home while they were away at the White's Christmas party. Someone who possibly knew the Ramseys and even had been in their home previously.

However, having been in the home previously would not have been necessary since there was plenty of time while they were away to wander through the home and familiarize themselves with the floor plan...even go through John's home office through his personal papers and see the amount of a check in the amount of his bonus.

In any case, I don't believe either of the parents killed the child.

Now, whether their son (either of them) was culpable is another story.

Some living soul knows something about what went on in that house before and after.

Hopefully, justice will prevail as in the Martha Moxley murder. As long as someone is persevering , there's always the chance....but of course we may never know either.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

I'm going to close out the New Year by saying what I've always believed about this case. Actually, I hate to even call it a "case" because this was a little girl...a human being with parents and family who loved her..not simply a "case".

I believe someone got into the Ramsey home while they were away at the White's Christmas party. Someone who possibly knew the Ramseys and even had been in their home previously.

However, having been in the home previously would not have been necessary since there was plenty of time while they were away to wander through the home and familiarize themselves with the floor plan...even go through John's home office through his personal papers and see the amount of a check in the amount of his bonus.

In any case, I don't believe either of the parents killed the child.

Now, whether their son (either of them) was culpable is another story.

Some living soul knows something about what went on in that house before and after.

Hopefully, justice will prevail as in the Martha Moxley murder. As long as someone is persevering , there's always the chance....but of course we may never know either.

If someone breaks into a house they obviously have a plan -- something to achieve.

Why would an intruder break into a house and then write a strange ransom note using Patsy's notepad and pens, then kill the little girl but not take the girl for ransom but rather leave her body to be found?