NV NV - Steven T. Koecher, 30, Henderson, 13 Dec 2009 - #10

[Fairy1]

I would worry about things like that, too. But I suspect that the kind of person who would murder somebody and dump the body does not think the same way you and I do.

I agree. I've never killed anyone or buried a body.

But if we're to believe that Steven's killer went to great lengths to hide or cover up any connection between them, it seems reasonable to me to believe they wouldn't have taken such a risk with this task.

OR - they either believe they're smarter than everyone else (common amongst criminals) or they're just plain stupid.

 

[Paulette]

The light from the moon was "last quarter" on Dec. 9th.

A last quarter moon only has 1/2 the light of a full moon.

By Dec. 13th it was within 3 days of a "new moon". A new moon has no light. Totally dark.

It would have been very dark out the night of the 13th. One would've needed headlights to drive into the desert.

 

[Fairy1]

Because you need to get it over quickly? I dunno. It just seems if he'd be put there, he'd be there. Unless he was moved.

ETA: Just catching up on various news about missing/found remains, and saw this, about the Sherry (Shae) Sellers disappearance.

Talk about a bad search.

In your own neighborhood? When your victim's car was still/found there?

Take a look at how many missing people, who were most likely murder victims, are still missing - YEARS later. It happens a lot, for various reasons. They weren't all killed by geniuses. They weren't all buried. It's alarming, really.

I agree there was something more than just your average tip to lead searchers to the area searched on Saturday. The entire Anthem area is practically surrounded by pieces of desert large and small. If they were going completely on where Steven's car was found, this particular area may not have even have made the cut.

 

[Fairy1]

The light from the moon was "last quarter" on Dec. 9th.

A last quarter moon only has 1/2 the light of a full moon.

By Dec. 13th it was within 3 days of a "new moon". A new moon has no light. Totally dark.

It would have been very dark out the night of the 13th. One would've needed headlights to drive into the desert.

That's just my point about the spot they were digging up - they wouldn't have needed to drive into the desert! It's not far from the road at all!

 

[Sin City]

Fairy1,
snipped:
My point is, without legal birth records, the state of Utah would be unable to account for many of them. And who knows when they started paying attention? I doubt very much this is a recent practice employed by the FLDS. It's probably been going on for years and years.

Sorry, I'm a day behind in reviewing posts, but I wanted to comment regarding legal birth records. While researching my own genealogy I came upon legal birth certificates created when some of my ancesters were adults. This would have been in the early 1900s when they were born, however I figured the state would want to document births that probably occurred in the home or very rural areas.

I'm not quite sure, but IMO this is what the State of Utah vital stats did for the Lost Boys.

 

[Paulette]

If I were to kill someone, I sure wouldn't leave the body out in the open. Someone might come by and see it. That would open up a can of worms that might lead back to me. Forensics, my alibi, questions galore. No, the best thing would be to take it far away so you're not linked.

 

[laytonian]

That's just my point about the spot they were digging up - they wouldn't have needed to drive into the desert! It's not far from the road at all!

'cept it gets dusky about 5:00pm that time of year....so going out at midnight might not have been the best move anyway.

Remember, there was a "young man" living out at that homeless camp "for several weeks" and no one bothered him. It looked like he had a campfire there, and no one bothered him. The dog-walker knew he'd been gone for "a couple of weeks" but never paid any other attention.

I really think you could get away with it out there.

 

[Fairy1]

Fairy1,
snipped:
My point is, without legal birth records, the state of Utah would be unable to account for many of them. And who knows when they started paying attention? I doubt very much this is a recent practice employed by the FLDS. It's probably been going on for years and years.

Sorry, I'm a day behind in reviewing posts, but I wanted to comment regarding legal birth records. While researching my own genealogy I came upon legal birth certificates created when some of my ancesters were adults. This would have been in the early 1900s when they were born, however I figured the state would want to document births that probably occurred in the home or very rural areas.

I'm not quite sure, but IMO this is what the State of Utah vital stats did for the Lost Boys.

Thank you, SC. I'm sure that's exactly what Utah has done - with the boys they found. I worry more about those who weren't saved.

 

[swjaxon]

My point is, without legal birth records, the state of Utah would be unable to account for many of them. And who knows when they started paying attention? I doubt very much this is a recent practice employed by the FLDS. It's probably been going on for years and years.

There are legal birth records -- thousands of them. I used to be assigned to the FLDS beat. Spent several years writing and reporting on them (and still run a website devoted to the subject).

 

[Sin City]

If I were to kill someone, I sure wouldn't leave the body out in the open. Someone might come by and see it. That would open up a can of worms that might lead back to me. Forensics, my alibi, questions galore. No, the best thing would be to take it far away so you're not linked.

Just wanted to mention a case in Nebraska regarding a young man/military who abducted two boys(different times), and killed them....dumping their bodies just off roadways in the farming areas near the Air Force base he was stationed in.

That's a body dump. The murderer just wants to get rid of the body as soon as possible. The body means nothing to them. Not that a human being means anything to a murderer either, but it's the way some murderers end their crimes....body dump.

My Dad is a retired Park Ranger, and he has told me numerous times, "Criminals are stupid."

 

[Fairy1]

'cept it gets dusky about 5:00pm that time of year....so going out at midnight might not have been the best move anyway.

Remember, there was a "young man" living out at that homeless camp "for several weeks" and no one bothered him. It looked like he had a campfire there, and no one bothered him. The dog-walker knew he'd been gone for "a couple of weeks" but never paid any other attention.

I really think you could get away with it out there.

Yes - 5:00 PM, when all the Anthem folks are on their way home from work. Perfect time to bury your victim.

That campsite was much further from the road and a in a ravine. And we don't know if anyone saw it while the dude was there.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. I was there. I saw the area they were digging up while standing on the shoulder of Volunteer Road.

I'm not a murderer nor do I think like one. I have no idea what led to this area being searched, but perhaps we'll all find out someday.

 

[carbuff]

So here's an overactive imagination scenario:

You park your vehicle beside the road in broad daylight. You start digging a grave. If anybody stops, you say you're burying your pet dog.

There's a moment of risk when you drag the tarp/blanket whatever over to the grave, when somebody might notice that the load's too big and heavy for even a very large Rotweiller, but unless somebody actually stops to help, they're not likely to notice.

Maybe you even have a dead dog to bury on top of the other thing. Then even if somebody suspicious digs up the grave, they'll stop when they find the dog bones, because that's what they're expecting to find.

 

[Fairy1]

There are legal birth records -- thousands of them. I used to be assigned to the FLDS beat. Spent several years writing and reporting on them (and still run a website devoted to the subject).

State records?

 

[swjaxon]

State records?

Yep. I've sat in the Colorado City Town Hall and sifted through them looking for underage mothers. I've probably seen 10,000 or more. I have about 30 copies in a box at home.

 

[carbuff]

Yes - 5:00 PM, when all the Anthem folks are on their way home from work. Perfect time to bury your victim.

That campsite was much further from the road and a in a ravine. And we don't know if anyone saw it while the dude was there.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. I was there. I saw the area they were digging up while standing on the shoulder of Volunteer Road.

I'm not a murderer nor do I think like one. I have no idea what led to this area being searched, but perhaps we'll all find out someday.

I don't disagree with what you say about the area -- you saw it and I didn't.

But if Anthem's a retirement community, probably not that many of them are heading home from work.

 

[Sin City]

'cept it gets dusky about 5:00pm that time of year....so going out at midnight might not have been the best move anyway.

Remember, there was a "young man" living out at that homeless camp "for several weeks" and no one bothered him. It looked like he had a campfire there, and no one bothered him. The dog-walker knew he'd been gone for "a couple of weeks" but never paid any other attention.

I really think you could get away with it out there.

I totally agree with you Laytonian. I think that a body could be dumped, or burried in the soft silt/sand, or piled over with debris. IMO someone could have driven a truck out there on one of the dirt roads/paths, and placed a body in the area right out of the back of a pick-up bed. IMO the criminal could have used his lights at night, and wouldn't even be noticed. IMO a body dump could have happened during the daytime.

Now, I do wonder who knows the back roads into the area well enough to travel by night, or day? Construction workers, etc.

I also wonder how much traffic the back roads into the area get during the work week in the daytime?

Are forensics being done on the items in the camp area?

So many questions.

 

[carbuff]

The Googlemaps satellite view shows quite a number of what appear to be 4-wheel/ATV trails in the area. Probably not at all unusual to see traffic out there at odd hours.

 

[Sin City]

I get it. But why risk it at all? There are plenty of much more remote areas, with relatively easy access and well away from people where a murderer could just dump a body and not even have to bury it.

IMO this is an easy dump area. Plus, it's quite close to the freeway. I would say that the person would have to know the area though. i.e. a local

 

[laytonian]

The Googlemaps satellite view shows quite a number of what appear to be 4-wheel/ATV trails in the area. Probably not at all unusual to see traffic out there at odd hours.

Take a look HERE.

You can see the search area. Zoom in on it, making sure that you've got the green arrow in the center of the screen -- then look at what it is.

That's where I'd be searching next.

 

[carbuff]

Take a look HERE.

You can see the search area. Zoom in on it, making sure that you've got the green arrow in the center of the screen -- then look at what it is.

That's where I'd be searching next.

Gravel pit? Construction area? I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at. But it looks like a lot of good places to hide a body.