NV NV - Steven T. Koecher, 30, Henderson, 13 Dec 2009 - #19

[hollyblue]

I would be surprised for sure in this post 9-11 world. I would think all terrorists would travel by bus to avoid the watch lists. I went on the Greyhound website to simulate purchasing a ticket online from LV to TX where I believe SK has friends...(I am sure I have a post on here somewhere)

IIRC you have to present a valid photo ID in order to get the ticket-otherwise how would LE have known whether or not he took a bus out of town when they checked the bus terminals?

Good question. Sort of like my disbelief in planes not having to leave a flight plan post 911, but it's happening. If you read that whole ticket page, there are many ways he could have obtained a ticket. 1. Someone living somewhere else can purchase the ticket(s) and all that is needed to retrieve it may be a password by the recipient.

ETA: I don't think Amtrak back East requires ID and how many thousands there use it to get to the city everyday for work...or just travel the Boston to DC corridor. ???

 

[laytonian]

My understanding is that you have to present legal ID to board the bus.

We discussed this for quite awhile, months ago. We found different instructions on the 'net, so WSer Sin City did some great investigation.

She went to the Henderson NV Greyhound "terminal" (which is actually a Circle K store in the Whitney Ranch area) and asked questions.

Things may have changed since that time, but this was how they handled things, early Spring 2010: She was told that there's no passenger manifest, nor do you have to show ID if you pay cash. You DO have to show ID if you're using a "will call" ticket (prepaid via credit card or booked online).

The interesting thing about that particular bus, is that it leaves the terminal not long after SK's last cell usage occurred.

We pretty much concluded that it was entirely possible he hopped a bus BUT that the location of the bus station showed an outbound southern route (towards Arizona). If he were going another direction, it would have been so much easier to just drop the car off somewhere else and use the main LV terminal (downtown, which is much further away).

 

[laytonian]

I would be surprised for sure in this post 9-11 world. I would think all terrorists would travel by bus to avoid the watch lists. I went on the Greyhound website to simulate purchasing a ticket online from LV to TX where I believe SK has friends...(I am sure I have a post on here somewhere)

IIRC you have to present a valid photo ID in order to get the ticket-otherwise how would LE have known whether or not he took a bus out of town when they checked the bus terminals?

I don't believe the bus terminals were checked.

The air terminals, and apparently his passport usage, were checked (which would have been in Feb, when the P-family started up the S&S scenarios).

 

[believe09]

Huh. I must be confused about my cases-I thought they did a check of the buses headed out of town.

Note to terrorists, use cash and the bus to bypass Homeland Security.

 

[laytonian]

I have wondered about this too. But there doesn't seem to be anything that fits the bill.

Xanadu, Shangri-La -- does that get translated to going home to God?

I was kidding, everyone. Really.

For some reason, there's an idea that the Mormons are some scary cult that "steals" people if they want to leave the church. Yes, I can understand why that exists (ie, the "church courts" that are held, ie).

The FLDS and other Fundamentalist cults are scary, and some are murderous.

But those aren't the Mormons (LDS).

....and the "lost boys" aren't in danger from the FLDS, either.

WHY? Because they were kicked out of the FLDS communities by the older men, who saw them as competition.

Jeremy Johnson, a wealthy man in St George who has "saved" many of the "lost boys" has been very public in his efforts to offer shelter and job training to the "lost boys".....who
The only thing the "lost boys" are in danger from, is drugs and alcohol - and a society that they didn't grow up in. SOME may be in danger if they've testified against the FLDS, in the courts that are bringing down Warren Jeffs.

When I do my daily checks of the Washington County jail records, I see lots of FLDS names.

I'm not an LDS apologist; as a Gentile growing up in Utah, I have many beefs with how the "predominant religion" treats the non-members who go back generations. (If you don't agree with them, you're told to leave by someone who recently moved here!)

BUT....there's no "safe haven" for people who are non-practicing Mormons. They just quit practicing their religion.

They're called Jack Mormons and they're all over Utah.

People would be disappearing from my neighborhood, if there had to be some "escape" mechanism.

 

[laytonian]

Huh. I must be confused about my cases-I thought they did a check of the buses headed out of town.

They may have been able to get some info, but not "cash ticket" info. The cash tickets had no name on them.

Note to terrorists, use cash and the bus to bypass Homeland Security.

That's what we thought. Amazing.

NOW....it may have changed since then, but the person who actually sold the tickets at the Henderson, told Sin City how it was "in practice".

 

[laytonian]

You know Fairy - this is interesting. There is a book about the "lost boys" of the FLDS religion. I have never read it, but I do believe there is a lot of stuff on line about it.

Do you think it is possible Steven went to help the lost boys? I mean, if he was feeling a little depressed and wanted to get out of his current situation, would he have gone to help the boys, given that he apparently was strong in his faith? Maybe to help keep the boys in the LDS, but not the FLDS?

The "lost boys" aren't in the LDS (Mormon) church in the first place. The FLDS and other fundamentalists, are completely separate.

Just a thought..... kinda rambling here. I just thought it was an interesting idea.

Salem

It IS an interesting thought.

But the vast majority of the "lost boys" are in St George.

If he wanted to help them, he wouldn't have left St George.

Plus, he have had to have had some contact with Jeremy Johnson (or some of the others who have foundations and homes set up for the purpose).

 

[laytonian]

I'm putting in my vote for "walk-away." That's my vote for today. I uphold my right to change my vote, as early as tomorrow.

I switch positions every two hours.

I see nothing, after all this time, which leads in any specific direction. :banghead:

That's why I'm frustrated, feeling nonproduction, and wondering if "quiet" might help a wandering soul return to his family (without lots of publicity and curiosity). Still no answer about the PO security tape and the two sightings.

 

[hollyblue]

Huh. I must be confused about my cases-I thought they did a check of the buses headed out of town.

Note to terrorists, use cash and the bus to bypass Homeland Security.

I just tried calling again. Greyhound is having major jams right now because of the weather in the western states. Every number I call is either busy, disconnected, changed or just keeps ringing. I did try to contract the Circle K's around Whitney Ranch per web phone numbers...and again, disconnected. The one I did contact, I believe on Warm Springs, didn't sell GH tickets and had never heard of any in the area that did....but she could have just been misinformed too.

Even the main numbers are jammed and I ended up talking to the automated "person" Gracie!!! LOL

I thought it had been discussed here also, your not going nuts....or I'm right along with you.
You know, many people on ranches or in Vegas, for that matter may have their own planes....and own little runway on their ranches. Not that far fetched anymore. Personally, I've always wondered if Mr. Security had a pilot license.

 

[SugarJames]

I just tried calling again. Greyhound is having major jams right now because of the weather in the western states. Every number I call is either busy, disconnected, changed or just keeps ringing. I did try to contract the Circle K's around Whitney Ranch per web phone numbers...and again, disconnected. The one I did contact, I believe on Warm Springs, didn't sell GH tickets and had never heard of any in the area that did....but she could have just been misinformed too.

Even the main numbers are jammed and I ended up talking to the automated "person" Gracie!!! LOL

I thought it had been discussed here also, your not going nuts....or I'm right along with you.
You know, many people on ranches or in Vegas, for that matter may have their own planes....and own little runway on their ranches. Not that far fetched anymore. Personally, I've always wondered if Mr. Security had a pilot license.

I brought up disscussion about Greyhound as part of my theory for his Ruby trip several months ago. But the disscussion was quelled because my theory isnt popular. There are many ways to board a GH bus without having to show a photo ID. Even still he or anyone can use thier own ID to verify a ticket in hand to board. GH like's to pack the buses...drivers see faces but not many names.

A person like Steven boarding a bus anywhere would not raise red flags...just another guy getting on a bus.

 

[carbuff]

I was kidding, everyone. Really.

For some reason, there's an idea that the Mormons are some scary cult that "steals" people if they want to leave the church. Yes, I can understand why that exists (ie, the "church courts" that are held, ie).

The FLDS and other Fundamentalist cults are scary, and some are murderous.

But those aren't the Mormons (LDS).

....and the "lost boys" aren't in danger from the FLDS, either.

WHY? Because they were kicked out of the FLDS communities by the older men, who saw them as competition.

Jeremy Johnson, a wealthy man in St George who has "saved" many of the "lost boys" has been very public in his efforts to offer shelter and job training to the "lost boys".....who
The only thing the "lost boys" are in danger from, is drugs and alcohol - and a society that they didn't grow up in. SOME may be in danger if they've testified against the FLDS, in the courts that are bringing down Warren Jeffs.

When I do my daily checks of the Washington County jail records, I see lots of FLDS names.

I'm not an LDS apologist; as a Gentile growing up in Utah, I have many beefs with how the "predominant religion" treats the non-members who go back generations. (If you don't agree with them, you're told to leave by someone who recently moved here!)

BUT....there's no "safe haven" for people who are non-practicing Mormons. They just quit practicing their religion.

They're called Jack Mormons and they're all over Utah.

People would be disappearing from my neighborhood, if there had to be some "escape" mechanism.

That wasn't what I meant. I just keep wondering about whether he found a remote enclave of like-minded people who think the everyday LDS church is too worldly. What we would have called a commune back in the 60's.

 

[laytonian]

I brought up disscussion about Greyhound as part of my theory for his Ruby trip several months ago. But the disscussion was quelled because my theory isnt popular.

As I understand it, this is your theory:

Steven drove all the way from St George Utah to Ruby Valley NV, then (on the way back) stopped at the Pilot Station in Wendover to pick up a woman missing from West Valley City, Utah - who was arriving on a bus coming from Sacramento, California.​

What have I misunderstood?

 

[laytonian]

That wasn't what I meant. I just keep wondering about whether he found a remote enclave of like-minded people who think the everyday LDS church is too worldly. What we would have called a commune back in the 60's.

A fundamentalist sect, then?
They're the only ones I'm aware of, who think the modern LDS Church is too worldly.

I know Steven told a friend that the Tribune was "too worldly", but that's the most liberal place in Utah. I always wondered why he didn't try to find a job at the LDS-owned Deseret News, instead.

ETA:
The problem with fundamentalism, is that it involves polygamy.
The polygamists do not welcome additional men.
After all, if you want to have a great number of wives, additional men are competition.
Even your own sons are competition, hence they're kicked out and become "lost boys".

 

[carbuff]

A fundamentalist sect, then?
They're the only ones I'm aware of, who think the modern LDS Church is too worldly.

I know Steven told a friend that the Tribune was "too worldly", but that's the most liberal place in Utah. I always wondered why he didn't try to find a job at the LDS-owned Deseret News, instead.

Yes. I don't think it's likely but I have wondered about it.

There are a lot of questions about Steven and his job history, aren't there?

 

[believe09]

Maybe we should rethink what kinds of groups SK would fit in with? He liked to swim and hike right? How about fishing, camping, guns, hunting...??

ETA: lots of question marks...how appropriate, lol

 

[SugarJames]

As I understand it, this is your theory:

Steven drove all the way from St George Utah to Ruby Valley NV, then (on the way back) stopped at the Pilot Station in Wendover to pick up a woman missing from West Valley City, Utah - who was arriving on a bus coming from Sacramento, California.​

What have I misunderstood?

I believe IMO he took the trip to meet someone coming in on the eastbound bus @330pm on the 10th at the travel center in Wendover. The bus would be on a run starting in Sac at about the same time he leaves St G to start his trip to Ruby. There are many stops along the way that a person could have boarded heading east. He arrives early and decides to got to AN ranch where he makes the comment about going to Sac however goes back south instead.

I used your timeline and traveled with him several times trying to visualize what he was up to and why? If you consider a possible connection to SP (just in the ruby trip) he could have traveled there to pick her up and transport her through the state south to his home in St G or just over into Nevada In Mesqete or Overton. At that time he wasnt ""missing but SP was. She would have to transfer GH in SLC to continue south to St G but if everyone is looking for you a private vehicle would be the best choice. If the plan was to stay missing SP would not want to get caught at the bus station in SLC.

 

[carbuff]

I believe IMO he took the trip to meet someone coming in on the eastbound bus @330pm on the 10th at the travel center in Wendover. The bus would be on a run starting in Sac at about the same time he leaves St G to start his trip to Ruby. There are many stops along the way that a person could have boarded heading east. He arrives early and decides to got to AN ranch where he makes the comment about going to Sac however goes back south instead.

I used your timeline and traveled with him several times trying to visualize what he was up to and why? If you consider a possible connection to SP (just in the ruby trip) he could have traveled there to pick her up and transport her through the state south to his home in St G or just over into Nevada In Mesqete or Overton. At that time he wasnt ""missing but SP was. She would have to transfer GH in SLC to continue south to St G but if everyone is looking for you a private vehicle would be the best choice. If the plan was to stay missing SP would not want to get caught at the bus station in SLC.

So are you saying he's just the courier?

 

[believe09]

why a person? Why not a package?

 

[laytonian]

Maybe we should rethink what kinds of groups SK would fit in with? He liked to swim and hike right? How about fishing, camping, guns, hunting...??

ETA: lots of question marks...how appropriate, lol

He liked to swim, did some golfing. Kinda into contact sports (we see volleyball, etc).

Naegle told us he didn't own a gun, so that pretty much leaves out hunting (plus, we see no hunting images on any of the associated web pages).

I've recently been wondering whether his personal politics were different than what he publicly stated.

We recently saw images of him in a group that followed a liberal, green-conscious band to Dallas, Texas. (I can no longer find those images - but we discussed it in the last thread!)

He drove a flex-fuel (gas/ethanol) car and went out of his way in St George, to buy the ethanol fuel (per Naegle, in one of her first posts here).

He wrote some articles for the clipper that addressed more-liberal ideas than that paper normally covered, and did well to hide any bias:
Recycling in Kaysville
Utah gay rights vs "full quiver" resolution.i

....and don't forget the article he wrote on Winter Blues about the time he'd have been expressing his own thoughts on it, to his family.

 

[laytonian]

I believe IMO he took the trip to meet someone coming in on the eastbound bus @330pm on the 10th at the travel center in Wendover. The bus would be on a run starting in Sac at about the same time he leaves St G to start his trip to Ruby. There are many stops along the way that a person could have boarded heading east. He arrives early and decides to got to AN ranch where he makes the comment about going to Sac however goes back south instead.

I used your timeline and traveled with him several times trying to visualize what he was up to and why? If you consider a possible connection to SP (just in the ruby trip) he could have traveled there to pick her up and transport her through the state south to his home in St G or just over into Nevada In Mesqete or Overton. At that time he wasnt ""missing but SP was. She would have to transfer GH in SLC to continue south to St G but if everyone is looking for you a private vehicle would be the best choice. If the plan was to stay missing SP would not want to get caught at the bus station in SLC.

So my version of your scenario was correct.
He drove to Nevada to pick up SP, who was coming from Sacramento, on a bus.

Why would she even have gone to Sacramento or been on that bus at all, when he could just as easily have picked her up at home or at work? Why transport her three times further than necessary?

I'm sorry. I see no logic at all in it.
Without using known facts from any case, the timeline can be used to promote any scenario.

Like was stated by a moderator over in the SP forums: this is merely beating a dead horse (that's been discounted by law enforcement via evidence that's both known and undisclosed). Sometimes, things are "unpopular" for very good reasons.