NY - 8 Die in Crash on Taconic State Parkway #3

[hot cawfeee]

al66pine------very provocative question-------I have wondered (along with other things about this matter) if the person at McDonalds was interviewed as well as the gas station clerk (the infamous "Diane pointing to her head"---which looked more like running her fingers thru her hair--which I do frequently). They may feel some culpabilty for letting a woman visibly intoxicated or at the lesser of it, appearing somewhat impaired get back into her car full of children and drive. I doubt they would come forward and would never blame them---I live in an area where people would be itching for fifteen minutes of fame and would talk to anyone about being one of the last to speak with Diane.

 

[nrdsb4]

al66pine------very provocative question-------I have wondered (along with other things about this matter) if the person at McDonalds was interviewed as well as the gas station clerk (the infamous "Diane pointing to her head"---which looked more like running her fingers thru her hair--which I do frequently). They may feel some culpabilty for letting a woman visibly intoxicated or at the lesser of it, appearing somewhat impaired get back into her car full of children and drive. I doubt they would come forward and would never blame them---I live in an area where people would be itching for fifteen minutes of fame and would talk to anyone about being one of the last to speak with Diane.

Didn't the gas station clerk refuse to speak to police?

 

[hot cawfeee]

nrdsb4--------did he/she ? Dont remember reading that, its been awhile. Hoping that the doc will be on again soon to refresh my mind.
Hoping that Liz Garbus will show what footage did not make it to the final edit.

 

[sinenox]

Hi guys,

Not trying to hijack with this methanol hypothesis or anything, but in the autopsy report (http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/schuler, diane_report.pdf) it says that they used GC-FID to identify the ethanol. I use one of these regularly, and did a quick search for people seeking to separate different alcohols, and specifically ethanol and methanol. It turns out that you have to use the right column procedure and injection method, or else your ethanol and methanol will coelute (appear on top of each other). Now, they may identify for different alcohols at that lab, but if they don't because they're not looking for it (and it would require extra effort and specific protocols), then this could explain everything. If I were close to the case I would definitely look in to this. If the driver had methanol poisoning it may explain her behavior.

 

[al66pine]

I just watched the documentary and I was wondering if anyone had ever looked in to methanol poisoning? This case sounds like textbook alcohol poisoning, but I'm not sure it was ethanol. Methanol has the effect of, among other things, causing vision disruption or loss, as well as abdominal pain and etc. ....
Edited to add: Methanol poisoning isn't that uncommon. Accidentally drinking something contaminated with cleaning solution, drinking small batch beers or other liquors (especially from abroad) or drinking moonshine/home brew can result in methanol poisoning. This might also account for the incredibly high supposed ethanol concentration?

sbm bbm

Thanks for bringing something new to the discussion.

Trying to make sure I understand the post & events. So if -
- night before, Diane & husband drank bev's w content of vodka bottle (plus OJ or what-ev?), had no poisoning symptoms;
- then someone added certain kind* of cleaning solution(s) into that vodka bottle;
- on morning of crash Diane drank some content of vodka bottle (mixed w OJ or what-ev?);

then ^that would cause methanol poisoning and give her symptoms you listed, consistent w reports of her behavior?
Reports from little niece, ppl in other cars on highway, quickie mart clerk, et al.
Plus reports of ppl who said she was fine earlier in day of crash, e.g., campground employee (?), et al.

If I'm understanding ^ correctly, the methanol poisoning theory is verrrrrrry enlightening.
Makes the previously-conflicting puzzle pieces fit together better.
And narrows list of suspects w means, opportunity, motive to mix 'a little something' into vodka bottle.

Is it poss now, to review orig. tox reports and detect presence of methanol?
Or if some orig. blood, urine, etc. is still avail for analysis, could new tests be run & poss'ly reveal methanol?
And at concentrations high enough to have caused her behavior and death?

I did not follow case closely, but this seems to be entirely new avenue.


* What kind of cleaning solutions? Products commonly found in US households? Windex, Dawn dishwashing liquid, ammonia,
hand sanitizer, PineSol, laundry detergent, Mop & Glo for floors? That kind of thing?

 

[nrdsb4]

Hi guys,

Not trying to hijack with this methanol hypothesis or anything, but in the autopsy report (http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/schuler, diane_report.pdf) it says that they used GC-FID to identify the ethanol. I use one of these regularly, and did a quick search for people seeking to separate different alcohols, and specifically ethanol and methanol. It turns out that you have to use the right column procedure and injection method, or else your ethanol and methanol will coelute (appear on top of each other). Now, they may identify for different alcohols at that lab, but if they don't because they're not looking for it (and it would require extra effort and specific protocols), then this could explain everything. If I were close to the case I would definitely look in to this. If the driver had methanol poisoning it may explain her behavior.

Ingesting lots of vodka and smoking pot also explains her behavior.

BTW, Diane's family had her samples re-tested and the second lab's results were identical to the first lab's results.

 

[sinenox]

What's interesting about methanol poisoning is that the effects frequently aren't felt for 24-48 hours, especially if the victim has been sleeping for part of that time or drinking ethanol. When it does present, it has the appearance of ethanol intoxication at first, and the tests required to differentiate the two aren't always available or easy to access (this paper talks a bit about that in the context of emergency management: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9348060. So it's very likely that if it were to happen in a similar situation, it would have been more than a day before the actual drive. This is a common problem for ERs because people always assume symptoms onset pretty quickly after consumption of the offending agent- not the case with MeOH.

Many people who get methanol poisoning get it from their own attempts to make moonshine. Methanol is a component of the distillation process that professional manufacturers are very careful about, but many people either come in contact with it from alcohol they make themselves or from small batch alcoholic beverages. It is also used as a very powerful organic solvent, as may have been mentioned, so it's possible that someone cleaning out a drink machine or something could find themselves in contact with it. It can also be absorbed through the skin or lung tissue, but I work with the stuff and I assure you that in decent concentrations you'd know that you had been exposed. It causes localized redness and irritation in skin and it feels like any alcohol when you inhale over it. That doesn't mean the average person would recognize it or know to be concerned, however. While someone could do something malicious, it's my sense that most people come in contact with methanol accidentally. People with drinking problems will sometimes drink stuff with methanol in it without realizing the risk. Here is a good overview of the condition here: http://www.anaesthesiamcq.com/AcidBaseBook/ab8_6a.php#861. Note the bit about how consumption of other alcohols (esp. ethanol) may further delay symptom onset. People with methanol poisoning have progressing blindness, sometimes abdominal pain/nausea, and intense cognitive confusion, as primary symptoms.

I think if this were going to be investigated, the first thing to do would be to request the lab protocols from that period of time and see whether the GC-FID run would have detected methanol and ethanol separately. If so, and the original measurements clearly show an ethanol peak without a methanol peak, then we can dismiss this hypothesis completely. However, to nrdsb4's point, I wouldn't be surprised if most labs don't look to separate their alcohol peaks. It would be time spent on something that is known to be quite rare, and it might make more sense for your average lab to simply rerun samples with a different injection protocol and ramp if non-ethanol alcohol toxicity is suspected. If you read that last link, it says a common problem in diagnosis is that very few labs actually run the test, and the ones that do wait until they have enough samples to warrant it.

If it turns out that indeed it wasn't looked for, and the samples are still secure and kept under pressure or low temperature (important, as otherwise your alcohols are likely to have volatilized) then the samples could be rerun with a protocol that allows differentiation of methanol and ethanol. I don't know much about this case, but I've always thought that a lot of the witness reports and family statements weren't consistent with mixing ethanol and cannabis. The fact that she packed the bags but the husband decided which car they went to, for example. Or that from what I've heard she tried to call police herself (has anyone FOIA'd those calls? I imagine that would offer insight). And the blindness (a red flag for MeOH), instead of normal combination of depressants symptoms. Anyway, just a thought.

Editing to add, here is a list of common products that contain Methanol: http://scorecard.goodguide.com/chemical-profiles/consumer-products.tcl?edf_substance_id=67-56-1
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=chem&id=232

 

[1&2&3]

Am I understanding you correctly - there is another test for ethanol and methanol levels that normally is not done?

If so, how would a lay person know about this procedure?

One might call this a silent killer without the knowledge you speak of. Very interesting.

 

[Jmoose]

For anyone who's local to this horrible crash-how did DS get to Pleasantville Road from the Thruway-did she get off onto the Sawmill? If she did, then I don't understand how she navigated that ramp that has a really sharp curve to the left, without crashing into the guardrail, before getting onto the Sawmill.

 

[RedHeadLouLou]

anniversary is coming up. so heartbroken still. have so many questions.

 

[hot cawfeee]

Many questions !!!!! I hear ya'........so many families touched by this. I hope little Brian is doing well, healing and getting healthy. I wonder what he remembers and how much he has spoken of this tragic event.

 

[Truthseeker22]

I feel Diane was an insecure woman deeply hurt from her past, and taking control, doing well, was the way she conquered that. She became overpowered by the children and family life. Probably realized hubby was not going to fill her emotional needs. For whatever reason, she was bing drinking that morning, in a blackout. Her goal was to get this kids home on time, to not look bad. period. Her drinking was probably not known as well to hubby. In her mind, he was on her **** list and not privy to her real needs.

 

[Truthseeker22]

I know, I was one. Luckily, I quit early. Women have the need to be the perfect mom, esp if your was a crappy one. Did she love her kids? SURE. Sadly, no one was loving her. REALLY getting to know her. Hubby's job. Any man that continues to harm the other victims with his on air antics simply is a blockhead. And the sister in law? Where does she stand now? Maybe she simply had a kind heart and was strong, but blinded. On a side note... I had to ask myself, was the Tallarico gentleman cousins with Steven Tyler? Same las name.

 

[sharkeyes]

I don't know if this has been explored here (I'm sure it most likely has). Ambien. I went back and looked at the toxicology report, and it is a standard tox screen and does not list any Rx meds, unless I've missed a document floating out there somewhere.

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/schuler, diane_report.pdf

Anyway, for those who have seen the TSWWAD documentary (I lent out my DVD and have yet to get it back), did Danny mention Ambien? I think I remember it being mentioned at some point, maybe not. Anyway, if Diane had been a user of Ambien, the side effects might have played a role in her zoning out. I used to think she intentionally went the wrong way, but the more I've thought about it, the more I have come to believe that there had to be something...well, we'll never know.

The "sleep driving" side effect caught my eye.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm085906.pdf

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I don't know if this has been explored here (I'm sure it most likely has). Ambien. I went back and looked at the toxicology report, and it is a standard tox screen and does not list any Rx meds, unless I've missed a document floating out there somewhere.

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/schuler, diane_report.pdf

Anyway, for those who have seen the TSWWAD documentary (I lent out my DVD and have yet to get it back), did Danny mention Ambien? I think I remember it being mentioned at some point, maybe not. Anyway, if Diane had been a user of Ambien, the side effects might have played a role in her zoning out. I used to think she intentionally went the wrong way, but the more I've thought about it, the more I have come to believe that there had to be something...well, we'll never know.

The "sleep driving" side effect caught my eye.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm085906.pdf

It's been mentioned here before, I think in the thread previous to this one. No testing done for it, but in the documentary it is either mentioned or shown on her rx records. I think it could be slightly possible that she may have taken it before going to sleep the night before and then had a weird reaction the next day due to the combo of alcohol, marijuana and ambien if she did.

I would kind of rather believe in a bizarre pharmaceutical reaction than an intentional murder suicide, but I definitely don't believe it was a total accident.

 

[hot cawfeee]

I think and boy I am reaching back in the memory bank for this--lol-------that I saw Ambien listed in Diane's meds when I watched the doc. I would say that Danny and Jay not mentioning it despite (IIRC) it being listed is deliberate.

I know from personal experience what Ambien can do--my late m-i-l took it (well abused it truthfully) and she would be up and down all night---eating and not remembering, walking around the house. Thank God, she did not take it into head to drive or even leave the house.

I go back and forth with how deliberate her actions were in the preceeding days--and even the night before---I believe she may have turned to pot and alcohol over Ambien ( I am not sure if there was ever a date posted as to when she was first given the rx for it and even if she was actually taking it). DId we ever discuss sleep apnea ? That just occurred to me---she was an obese woman--she may have had trouble sleeping b/c of that . And was given an rx for Ambien. Would a primary care doctor prescribe it or refer his patient to a psychiatrist to get a better handle on the reason/s for sleeplessness?

Great-----another can of worms opened !!!!!! lol

 

[Angela Carr]

Diane Schuler's autopsy and toxicology reports can viewed at the link below:

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/schuler, diane_report.pdf

The tox report showed only the presence of alcohol and THC (marijuana). No other drugs were found in her system.

A toxicology report will only exclude ambien or similar z drug by stating Ambien NOT DETECTED. If the report does not state that it means it was not tested for. I work in a toxicology lab. I think the fact that they found the large amount of alcohol plus evidence of THC use was sufficient for them to establish cause for this accident. The lab didn't feel the need to test for further drugs. However,IMO ambien or similar was consumed on the drive home, maybe she had a bottle of pills in her handbag, and accounts for the excess alcohol she drank and the fugue disassociated state she was in.She may have thought it would help her hangover, not realising the affect this drug would have on her. This drug is for sleeping only, staying awake on it is lethal especially driving a car. MOO.

 

[LemonCloud]

I just watched "There's Something Wrong With Aunt Diane" last week and have since researched it to bits, and then stumbled upon this thread. Coincidence?! Anyhow, I keep going between ambien/alcohol stupor theory, and snapped and had too much and ended it theory.

 

[nosysw]

I noticed on the Hance Family Foundation webpage, 2 days ago, there was a posting of the three girls' pictures. Heartbreaking. Didn't know if it was an anniversary, birthday, or some kind of special day; and then saw the activity here, and thought maybe something was up. But, I guess it's just a coincidence. In any event, I just had to mark this space with a prayer. Their mother grew up in my town...I didn't know her, but have a number of connections that did. It's just one of those things that will haunt you forever :'(
raying:

 

[Nova]

Perhaps I am biased because I have four wonderful aunts and I can't imagine any of them hurting me, especially not when I was a child; but I just can't get my head around Diane deciding to deliberately kill her nieces.

I realize that parents, especially mentally ill parents, sometimes see their own children as mere extensions of themselves and reason that the kids will be better off if they die with mom and/or dad. I don't think aunts and uncles usually think the same way (unless, perhaps, they are functioning as custodial parents).

Add to that the video posted above that shows a sort of optical illusion at the off-ramp Diane chose: if one misses the sign, it can look like an on-ramp leading back in the opposite direction. Add further that Diane didn't aim for other cars, as far as we know; she stayed in "her" lane and honked at others, warning them to get out of the way.

This doesn't all add up to deliberate suicide/homicide to me.

But I also have trouble believing she took an Ambien thinking it would help her migraine headache. What Ambient user would make that mistake? The only thing that seems remotely possible is that she took Ambien so late the night before that it hadn't worn off, or that she was so impaired (by booze or by pain) that she took an Ambien believing it was a painkiller of some sort.